647 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@cglasgow - well, the whole thing is arguing over semantics now. You can't actually tell me I'm wrong for my opinion - cause that would be telling me how to think, and by your own admission you're against that.

The Qunari appeal to me - let me ask you cglasgow, did you agree with what Anders did? Just a simple yes or no would suffice (though feel free to speak your mind).

[allankles]

 They are appealing because they make worthy advesaries. Unlike Meredith and her zealot band of Templars, the Qunair are an enemy I can respect, even if I don't necessarily agree with the way their society operates.

All in all the Qun is a utopian ideal similar to Plato's Republic, except that it doesn't rely on the bs Plato's Republic proposes about monarchy. That's probably why it looks 10 times better and more effective than the Chantry.

[Medhia Nox]

Hey, I happen to appreciate what Plato says about the "Philosopher Kings".

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

It is not necessary cowardice.
 

Declining the single most important challenge that life poses, how can that not be cowardice?

[Zan Mura]

Lithuasil wrote...

The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told. As interesting antagonists as they are, how can anyone support them? Those willfully submitting to the Qun are the most spineless, most pathetic individuals possibly imaginable - worse then any servant, worse then any slave because they willfully give themselves into slavery to avoid having to find purpose themselves.

So uhh, did you come here looking for a discussion, sharing views and all that? Or did you just want to rant and insult your opposition before they even had a chance to say their thing?

I don't think an OP like that even justifies a long response, so I'll keep it simple. Some of these people don't understand what the Qun is about, they just think big giants with huge muscles and swords are cool. Others who DO understand the basics of the Qun and still love their culture, respect the order. You know, ideals like dying for your country, dying for a cause you believe in, dying for your God. Living, for a purpose. As opposed to just existing because you can.

I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the appeal in it. Personally I suspect the Qunari as a race have a tendency to that kind of thinking, much like Vulcans in Star Trek with their inherent photographic memory and obsession with logic, etc.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 22 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[allankles]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Hey, I happen to appreciate what Plato says about the "Philosopher Kings".

I like the idea of the Philosopher Kings at a distance as well, but the whole system undermines the potential of the working class. The Qun doesn't propose any lying to maintain the power of a monarchy, the Qunari have no monarchy.

Modifié par allankles, 22 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Qunari appeal to me - let me ask you cglasgow, did you agree with what Anders did? Just a simple yes or no would suffice (though feel free to speak your mind).

Hahahaahaha, hell no I don't agree with what Anders did.  I'm anti-totalitarianism, but I'm also anti-murdering-noncombatants.

Like I said, both extremes are flawed; a dude has to balance things in between them somewhere.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Qunari appeal to me because they have largely consistent, coherent views that are as alien to me as some other cultures on Earth are to me. They are no less sincere or supported, but they go in radically different ways.

To take an example, the concept of how one should treat women. While liberal democracies with exposures to feminist movements have come up with one type of archetype, other cultures have come with other models. In the West, introducing yourself directly to a woman in conversation, and initiating it yourself, is considered proper and respectful.

In parts of the middle east, however, this is not true. Initiating a conversation with a woman like that isn't respectful: it's rude, abrasive, and entirely disrespectful to the woman in question. The woman is the one to initiate conversation with the man in such a setting.

Two different views, but neither one is necessarily invalid by their own basis of development. The difference in cultures itself is interesting, even if another culture does not agree with my own.

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hey, I happen to appreciate what Plato says about the "Philosopher Kings".

Yeah, but Plato is pretty much the grand high ascended god-king of 'sounds great in theory but wouldn't work in practice'.

The problem with trying to create the perfect system is that people are not, and never will be, perfect.   Not in judgement, not in moral character, not in attention to detail, not in anything.   We're mortals.  That means we **** up a lot.

So any system that's based on the principle that somebody will always make the right decision is a system whose foundation is built on sand.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
Declining the single most important challenge that life poses, how can that not be cowardice?

Who said that is the most important challenge in life? That is a -belief.
People who turn to the Qun disagree with this belief. They believe in other purposes.
How can defiling something you don't even believe in be cowardice? 

It is not a brave thing to go into a haunted house, if you don't believe in ghosts.
It is a brave thing to go into a haunted house, if you believe in ghosts.
So... it is not necessarily coward to believe that other people are smarter then you and with their wisdom know what is good for the community more then you do.

[Lithuasil]

Zan Mura wrote...
 Others who DO understand the basics of the Qun and still love their culture, respect the order. You know, ideals like dying for your country, dying for a cause you believe in, dying for your God. Living, for a purpose. As opposed to just existing because you can.

I'm as much opposed to the thought of living an existence without purpose as the next gal, likely moreso - but all these ideals loose every bit of weight and meaning they can carry, the moment you follow them not because you believe, but because you're told to. Someone sacrificing himself for the good of a cause he believes in is heroic - someone sacrificing himself, because he's told to, for a cause he neither understands, nor has ever questioned, that's simply sad.

[Wulfram]

The Qunari seem to me like a crazy cult which has grown huge.
The only good thing I can really say about them is that they appear sincere, and that ultimately their rulers are as much slaves as the rest of them.

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

Who said that is the most important challenge in life? That is a -belief.
People who turn to the Qun disagree with this belief. They believe in other purposes.
How can defiling something you don't even believe in be cowardice? 

Any creature, vermin, plant, mammal, can simply exist. We are given a consciousness, we are given sentience. Things that are unnecessary for mere survival. That gives us the ability, the chance to find purpose - but it also makes us hunger for justification. That one "why are we here, what are we meant to do?" question that's been giving philosophers sleepless nights for thousands of years, without ever coming up with a universal answer - I'd call it at least a pretty important question. But it's difficult to deal with. And going all "well, I can't be asked to deal with it, so let someone else do it" means that you literally pass up that one chance every individual has to justify it's own existence. 

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
the moment you follow them not because you believe, but because you're told to.

People of the Qun don't follow orders because they are told so, but because they believe that to be the best. They have no doubt. They do not wonder if they are wrong. They have faith in the truth of their actions.

You can say it doesn't appeal to you, or that you would hate to live in a society like that, but it is not fair to claim people (chars) who believe in the Qun are cowards or do not believe.

It is their faith that urges them to do great things, better things, heroic deeds. They fight till the last breath and do what they think is correct even if it means burning their own bodies. How can that be coward? I would personally hate to live in a system like that, because I am arrogant enough to think I can work out good ideas on my own, but that's me. It doesn't mean the faith of those who believe in greater purpose is questionable or cowardly.

In a way Andastre did it too, she followed the orders of the Maker till death. Is she coward then too? 

[Medhia Nox]

@allankles - bah, the working plebians are space filler for better men. You would probably be disgusted to know I consider that close to truth - but I don't rage against it, I'm a space filling plebian.

@cglasgow - well, at least we agree about something (Anders). I am admitting that between the two extremes I would choose the Qunari in a second. And, as a middle ground, I would appreciate a nation that leans more toward order - than freedom. Yes, I know - heresy.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...And going all "well, I can't be asked to deal with it, so let someone else do it" means that you literally pass up that one chance every individual has to justify it's own existence. 

It is rather arrogant to claim that any single person alone can know what is the best course of action or the justification for that action.
The Qun claims that a community as a whole can decide for such. There is no room for the person. There is only room for the whole. The flour must be flour, the yeast must be yeast and the egg must be egg, or the buttercucake will not be right. That is life too, you must be what you are, accept it, and not be foolish to cross your boundaries, as crossing your boundaries will only cause the whole to suck. If the flour was replaced by dirt just because the flour is not willing to accept it is flour, the cake as a whole will suffer.

People -chose- the Qun. They do not do it thoughtlessly. They decide for it as only with real belief can you follow the Qun. You will not be willing to die for something you don't beleive in. And if you don't believe in it, the Qun will cast you out.

(How many people did you lose to the Tar-Vashel? None.)

I do understand where you come from. But I think you are not willing to consider there are other perspectives. Some people (characters) operate with other base believes. You'll never be able to understand what they say without being willing to say: let us presume, having free choice is not the purpose of life.

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cglasgow - well, at least we agree about something (Anders). I am admitting that between the two extremes I would choose the Qunari in a second.

Not surprisingly, world history is absolutely full of evil dictators who have capitalized on that trend.  How many times has the 'Harsh as I am, you still need me!  Because without me you would have nothing but anarchy!' rap been tried in the past? 

It's true, and it works, but that still doesn't mean its good. 

So yeah, given a choice between the two extremes, I pick door #3: '**** both of you, I'm out of here.  Imma go try and find someplace where people aren't ****s.  Anybody wants to come with, let's go make a town.  We'll have elections and pick a mayor.'

Or more simply: To accept that your only choice is between two different flavors of **** sandwich is to give up all hope of something better.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 08:31 .

[Zan Mura]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm as much opposed to the thought of living an existence without purpose as the next gal, likely moreso - but all these ideals loose every bit of weight and meaning they can carry, the moment you follow them not because you believe, but because you're told to. Someone sacrificing himself for the good of a cause he believes in is heroic - someone sacrificing himself, because he's told to, for a cause he neither understands, nor has ever questioned, that's simply sad.

Where's the difference? People who sacrifice themselves for their country in a war their country is too remote from to even care, aren't sacrificing themselves for the good of a cause. They're dying because they were told to. Because the propaganda bit in, because they gave themselves up to the military in order to get an education they couldn't otherwise afford, and because at the end of it all they needed to believe in something for their psyche to handle the stress of war. And back home, they're hailed as heroes. For what? Fighting and dying in a war they had no personal stake in, because they were told to?

Someone who adheres to their role and dies for the Qun doesn't do so because they were told to, they do so because the Qun demands it, and that is the belief they are sworn to uphold and obey. Ultimately everything comes down to these same things, whether it's religion, patriotism, principles or whatever else. It's always part manipulation and propaganda, part brainwashing since early childhood, part coercion through debs or real-life circumstances that force you down certain paths, part following your own beliefs and part trusting someone else to tell you the best way to adhere to those beliefs of yours.

You simply can't say that Qun is all about a coward's choice, others telling you what to do, when the chantry or law or whatever is all about personal choice and freedom worthy of respect.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 22 mars 2011 - 08:33 .

[cglasgow]

Zan Mura wrote...

Where's the difference? People who sacrifice themselves for their country in a war their country is too remote from to even care, aren't sacrificing themselves for the good of a cause. They're dying because they were told to. Because the propaganda bit in, because they gave themselves up to the military in order to get an education they couldn't otherwise afford, and because at the end of it all they needed to believe in something for their psyche to handle the stress of war. And back home, they're hailed as heroes. For what? Fighting and dying in a war that basically did nothing, because they were told to?

That's a very accurate description of pretty much every Vietnam war movie ever, but weren't we talking about real-world history?

[Medhia Nox]

@cglasgow - but I did pick your door #3... I'm Viscount now, and things are going to start happening the way I believe they ought to. And it won't be like the Qunari - but it certainly won't be the cesspool Kirkwall is now.

[cglasgow]

*nods* DA2 was an interesting exploration of literary tragedy, but yeah, I don't want the game franchise to end on that note. We have to have changed something for the better after all our hard work, or else there was no point playing this game.

[Zan Mura]

cglasgow wrote...

That's a very accurate description of pretty much every Vietnam war movie ever, but weren't we talking about real-world history?

Maybe I'm too stupid to get the pun, but yeah I didn't get it. We were talking about the Qun, and I was trying to emphasize the point about how little diffrence there is between "choice" and not, and how even your choice can be based on so many things beyond your control that ultimately it becomes no choice at all.

[cglasgow]

Zan Mura wrote...

Maybe I'm too stupid to get the pun, but yeah I didn't get it. We were talking about the Qun

Oh, I'll grant that its an entirely accurate description of the Qun.  I just thought you were trying an analogy to certain real-world events, and I was busy going 'Um, not quite'.

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

I do understand where you come from. But I think you are not willing to consider there are other perspectives. Some people (characters) operate with other base believes. You'll never be able to understand what they say without being willing to say: let us presume, having free choice is not the purpose of life.

Every sentient creature, by the very fact of being capable of thought, will inevitably face doubt and choice. That at least is universally true. Now as we fortunately know, sentient beings ARE capable of greatness, of miraculous achievements and exploits. By overcoming their doubt, and by trying to make the most of the choices they are presented with. Passing that up, for a "safe" option like the Qun, that's taking the "less risk, almost no reward" option in the most important wager you can possibly make. And I find it hard, to not see cowardice in that.

[Lithuasil]

Zan Mura wrote...


Where's the difference? 

The difference is if you died the death of a hero, or that of an empty thrall. To some, that means something.

Zan Mura wrote...
You simply can't say that Qun is all about a coward's choice, others telling you what to do, when the chantry or law or whatever is all about personal choice and freedom worthy of respect.

For the fiftieth time in this thread alone - being anti Qun does not make me pro chantry.