647 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

No, they go: there are questions in life that have various answers given by various groups, and the Qun is a consistent, secure, noble, heroistic, social structure that will respect me for the role I perform. I can live a whole life, and the Qun provides for me.

Which leaves me in an intellectual dilemma, as this line of thought would be a whole lot more convincing, if the qun was at least one of those. The thing we've been arguing about for fourteen pages, is that every single bit of proof the games give us, and most applied logic say that the Qun isn't consistent, isn't noble, isn't heroic and fails where ever we as players encounter it. Which at least tempts me to say, that can't be your reason, because it's simply not true.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Where did the Qun fail? I didn't encounter any instance of the Qun failing, quite the contrary. Even when faced with hate and limited supplies, the Qunari remained in Kirkwall, solely because it was their duty to the Qun.

[Gadarr]

Lianaar wrote...
 Being respect for who you are.. that is what most people seek.  And that is exactly what the Qun gives.

Not quite. It gives respect to *what* (provided you're good at what you're doing, otherwise, not so much) you are, not to who you are. A very important difference.

If I'm not mistaken, the Qunari don't even have names. Personality doesn't seem to matter in the least, to the contrary, the Qun does its best to suppress any variations of personal preference. You don't even get to choose your profession upon which you're going to be measured, others do it for you.

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where did the Qun fail? I didn't encounter any instance of the Qun failing, quite the contrary. Even when faced with hate and limited supplies, the Qunari remained in Kirkwall, solely because it was their duty to the Qun.

Haven't we been through this already? By my book, not recovering your relic and getting slaughtered to the man in a battle that served no purpose whatsoever and achieved absolutely nothing, isn't exactly a military success worthy of epic tales.

[Lianaar]

That's the whole point of the cross cultural communication. Like in Western civilisations men carry things for women to help them. In Japan traditionally women carry the bag of men.

Which of them are wrong? Which of them are crude?
They are simply different. They come from different ideologies.

The Qun is an ideology, just like the Chantry or the Dalish or the Dwarves. It serves the same purpose and people seek them for the same reason. I never saw a sign of the Qun failing. There were chars of mine who were utterly annoyed by the Qun, and some who enjoyed the Qun and wanted to do what Saemus did (not the dying part)

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...By my book, not recovering your relic and getting slaughtered to the man in a battle that served no purpose whatsoever and achieved absolutely nothing, isn't exactly a military success worthy of epic tales.

It is only a failure if we presume the Qun's purpose is winning.
But the Qun's purpose is to keep to the Qun, even if it means losing.
They didn't break the code of the Qun.

[cglasgow]

So, the purpose of following the Qun is to follow the Qun?

Isn't that a tautology?

[Lianaar]

I am trying to explain things differently.
You take a walk, and see someone tearing out the heart of a fellow human. What do you think?
IF
a) you are walking down.. uhm.. New York's streets
are an Aztek in the glory of their empire
c) know this is the only way to kill a vampire (in a world where vampires actually exist)

Whatever is normal and everyday to you will determine how you see other things.
Within Kirkwall the Qun was out of place. However the Kirkwall traditions in the land of Qun would be just as out of place.
Neither is correct, neither is right. It is simply a personal preference.

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...By my book, not recovering your relic and getting slaughtered to the man in a battle that served no purpose whatsoever and achieved absolutely nothing, isn't exactly a military success worthy of epic tales.

It is only a failure if we presume the Qun's purpose is winning.
But the Qun's purpose is to keep to the Qun, even if it means losing.
They didn't break the code of the Qun.

True enough. But if "Slaughtering a bunch of civillians and getting utterly butchered" is keeping it to the Qun - well, that kind gives my question of "why would anyone join that club" additional weight, doesn't it?

[Superposition]

cglasgow wrote...

Superposition wrote...

The question is whether their leaders statistically outperform their average subordinate on certain tasks that are related to their authority (and how many standard deviations).

The problem is, with a system that relies on perfection (such as Plato's), 'better' is not good enough.  You need 'perfect' for it to work, so any flaw is ultimately damning.

Likewise, the Qun assumes that the Qun is infallible and unchanging.  So it has zero error-correction mechanisms and is massively fault-intolerant.  

Which means that you have a much smaller margin of error before things end up pear-shaped like the Kirkwall situation.  

Which means that you don't just need good leadership to make your system function without at least occasional catastrophe, you need perfect leadership... which no mortal being can supply.

1) I don't get it. Why do you need "perfect"?
2) Where it stated that the Qun is unchanging? What is the role of their priesthood ?
3) The Qun might be describing a dynamical system that is in stable equilibrium. Thus it may remain valid for many centuries.

[Lianaar]

cglasgow wrote...

So, the purpose of following the Qun is to follow the Qun?

Isn't that a tautology?

I would need to know a few things for answering this question, which knowledge I do not possess off. Every codex that sums up the way of life, be it law, Bible, religion, school rules or the Qun has a "historical" reason for its existence. People who brought the rules into existence had a goal to achieve with the rules. Norms that make you act in a certain way are quite generally found even in our everyday history.

So, I would like to know what the Qunary faced when the Qun was born. Why the Qun came to exist and what historical situation it addressed. The Qun laid down very strong behavioral patterns. Though the question comes: did the Qun merely sum up what is the nature of the Qunary? Or did it impose new rules to follow? 

It preserved a behavior pattern and its goal is to preserve the pattern. You are Christian because you believe in the Bible and act as the Bible demands. The goal of the Bible is to sustain the Bible. And if you act against the Bible, you are not a Christian. (Sorry, I did not intend to hurt anyone's feeling on the matter, I do not wish to doubt anyone's views on religion.) -- I am merely wishing to express that the rules whose goals are the upholding of the rules are rather common events in life.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
True enough. But if "Slaughtering a bunch of civillians and getting utterly butchered" is keeping it to the Qun - well, that kind gives my question of "why would anyone join that club" additional weight, doesn't it?

Why would anyone jump off from an aeroplain trusting that a piece of cloth will prevent their death? Why would anyone want to do juggling and acrobatics in a circus without any security of survival? Why do people burden themselves with old people? (There are some cultures where the old walk off to die to not be a burden to their family). Do you really think that servants who put the mumias into the grave died involuntarily? They knew what is awaiting them, they knew they'll die in order to serve the pharao in its next life. Why would anyone wish to do that? 

Questions to which people give answers based on their personality and faith (or lack thereof).

It takes a different sort of person then you to find appeal in the Qun. In RL I would never submit to anything like the Qun. I can make characters who are not interested in the individuum at all and wish to serve a greater purpose. Not because they fear making a decision, but because they think this is for the best.

[cglasgow]

[quote]Superposition wrote...

1) I don't get it. Why do you need "perfect"?[/quote]
... we were discussing Plato's Republic when we were talking about that one.  Short version: Plato was talking about what he thought was the ideal society.  Problem: His 'ideal society' only worked if it was populated with ideal people, as opposed to, well, actual human beings.

[quote][2) Where it stated that the Qun is unchanging? What is the role of their priesthood?[/quote]
To educate people in how to follow the Qun, and to determine which child should be put into which job.   None of these require actually having the ability to, or the desire to, change the Qun.

[quote]3) The Qun might be describing a dynamical system that is in stable equilibrium.[/quote]
Possible but very unlikely; dynamic systems embrace social change, and the Qun hates that.





[/quote]

[cglasgow]

Why would anyone jump off from an aeroplane trusting that a piece of
cloth will prevent their death?

Generally speaking?  Because they've seen other people do it. 

My dad went to jump school.  Before you've done your first jump, you've already watched a lot of other people jump; the classes ahead of you.

So, they're not asking you to take it on faith, they actually show you 'Yeah, this **** is real, and it works'.

Not to mention, of course, that the entire point of the 34-foot-tower is to weed out the people who have a fear of heights...

Why would anyone want to do juggling and acrobatics in a circus without any security of survival?

A combination of liking the adrenaline rush, liking the applause, and getting paid?

Why do people
burden themselves with old people?

The old people have taught them to believe that abandoning old people to die is not nice... and they back it up with 'Trust me, when you're as old as I am, won't you be glad that you live in a society where old people aren't expected to die?  Hells yeah you will.  Now keep the system running so you can get your turn.'  

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[Lianaar]

I agree that the Qun seems to be very static, though I have not read it. It claims to give the ultimate answer to life. It does make Qunari wish to spread the order and chase away the chaos, and change is a mark of chaos traditionally. They are even less willing to change then the dwarves. (On a side note, I never understood why the Arishok asks you what you would do in his place. Maybe he just wanted to see if you walk the path of the Qun anyway)

[Lianaar]

@cglasgow
Those are -your- answers, not the answers of people who actually do it. That's my point.
The answers differ based on who you ask.

Modifié par Lianaar, 22 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Superposition]

Lianaar makes good points and I agree. Any system that has to persist through time in order to achieve it's goal must have as a subgoal it's own survival.

[cglasgow]

Lianaar wrote...

I agree that the Qun seems to be very static, though I have not read it. It claims to give the ultimate answer to life.

That's a claim a lot of people have made.  <_<

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...


Why would anyone jump off from an aeroplain trusting that a piece of cloth will prevent their death? Why would anyone want to do juggling and acrobatics in a circus without any security of survival? Why do people burden themselves with old people? (There are some cultures where the old walk off to die to not be a burden to their family). Do you really think that servants who put the mumias into the grave died involuntarily? They knew what is awaiting them, they knew they'll die in order to serve the pharao in its next life. Why would anyone wish to do that? 
 

To all those decisions I can relate, if sometimes only on an intellectual level of "that's what they thought". However the only (intellectually sound) reason I am able to grasp, why anyone would submit to the Qun, is personal weakness and cowardice. To find out if there's more to it, I made this thread.

[Weltenschlange]

Lianaar wrote...
The Qun is an ideology, just like the Chantry or the Dalish or the Dwarves.

Sten: "No."



Seriously though:

The Chantry is the church of the Andrastean faith. I'll grant you that it's a meddling religion, but at least they don't want to control every aspect of their followers' lives.
The Qun on the other hand is a total belief system where every detail of the life of every single Qunari is controlled from birth till death by the Qun. That is quite a difference.

Also: I fail to see how "Dalish" and "Dwarves" are ideologies.

[cglasgow]

I'll grant that Dalish is as much a cultural way of life as an ethnicity; notice that if you don't want to live your life by the ideals the clan agrees with, they send you to an alienage.

'Dwarven', on the other hand, is not. Although 'Orzammar dwarf' would qualify; if you don't agree with the caste system and everything, they kick you the hell out of Orzammar.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil, you need to experience being alone and lost, losing yourself, to understand how strong of a need people have for certain things: being respecting, having a role and place, being valued for what you do, having a purpose.

Most of us live in a very comfortable sheltered environment where there are always friends, food, attention, respect. You are used to your opinion being heard and being correct at times but also to being taken seriously.

That is not how Thedas works. There are constant wars, any time a blood mage can explode on you and your kids can be possessed by demons. You can lose everything and those of higher rank don't necessarily give a damn about you. You suffer through death of your loved ones, through the humiliation, through the feeling of being worthless. The Maker says: it will not be better ever, unless everyone believes in me. The Dalish don't have it better either. Where can you turn to? If you ask: why all this suffering, pain, why should I go on, live another day? Why should I have children to this world? Who gives you an answer?

The Qun does: follow my rules and you'll have a place, we defend you, we make sure you get your well deserved place and be respected for it. You'll be SOMEONE. You will not be ignored. The Qun offers integrity, pride, survival, defense, respect. Who wouldn't want those things?

This is just one scenario, not all reasons behind joining the Qun.

[Lianaar]

Dwarven way of life: bound to tradition, only dwarves can be part of it, the belief of Paragorn, if you leave, you can never return, even if you otherwise keep to the rules. Traditional dwarven way of life is extremyldetailed and ruled in. (just consider the Shaper)

[cglasgow]

Lianaar wrote...

Lithuasil, you need to experience being alone and lost, losing yourself, to understand how strong of a need people have for certain things: being respecting, having a role and place, being valued for what you do, having a purpose.

I've experienced precisely that; I still say the Qun is horrid and wouldn't go there.  Even at my rock bottom, my little self-awareness in the back of my head was saying 'Dude, this is the point at which you are most vulnerable to either cult recruitment or alcoholism, so don't make any major decisions about joining anything new until you've got your life straight, and for the love of God, don't go to to any bars.'

No, literally.  I actually had that discussion with myself in just about exactly that many words.  It was years before I got myself back together again, but I did it with myself and my family, not some movement that promised freedom from doubt if only I would give it total control of my life.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[Porenferser]

I support them because I think it is unfair what happened to them.

They exploeded, yes.

But why?
Because an incompetent Viscount wasn't able to prevent the rassistic and fanatic crimes against them.

Also, I don't see any sense in killing one of the most important persons for one whole race in order to protect a dirty thief (Isabella).

I really hated that you couldn't really side with them.

Modifié par Porenferser, 22 mars 2011 - 10:07 .