647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Porenferser wrote...

Because an incompetent Viscount wasn't able to prevent the rassistic and fanatic crimes against them.

That's the same logic the villain of 'Law Abiding Citizen' used; 'the system totally screwed up (which, yes it did), so I'll kill anybody who works in the system!'

If he'd only stopped at killing the guy who murdered his family, he'd have been the hero.

Likewise, if the Arishok had sent his ninja death squads out to kill the terrorists, we'd call him an effective ruler.  Instead, he declares war on the people also trying to fight those same terrorists, simply because they weren't moving fast enough for his taste; and so, we call him a jackass.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:10 .

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

Lithuasil, you need to experience being alone and lost, losing yourself, to understand how strong of a need people have for certain things: being respecting, having a role and place, being valued for what you do, having a purpose.

Most of us live in a very comfortable sheltered environment where there are always friends, food, attention, respect. You are used to your opinion being heard and being correct at times but also to being taken seriously.

I've been in that exact situation, hundreds of miles from anyone to whom I mattered, alone and on the verge of despair. Never once throughout a whole year in such a situation, did I feel the necessity to join some cult, because they offered an easy way out.

 

Lianaar wrote...

The Qun does: follow my rules and you'll have a place, we defend you, we make sure you get your well deserved place and be respected for it. You'll be SOMEONE. You will not be ignored. The Qun offers integrity, pride, survival, defense, respect. Who wouldn't want those things?
 

It's not very nice of the qun to lie about such things, is it?

[Porenferser]

Well, they didn't kill *everybody*, they killed everyone who fought.

Remeber: They lead the civilians into the chantry.

Modifié par Porenferser, 22 mars 2011 - 10:11 .

[Lianaar]

@Weltenschlange
There are rules that tell you what is right and wrong. It doesn't matter how elaborately written those rules are or if they are written at all. It can be religion, law or even morality, ethics.
They all tell you how to live your life.
How am I to behave? The rule/norm/ettiquette/tradition/custom/faith/religion tells me to behave this way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lithuasil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where did the Qun fail? I didn't encounter any instance of the Qun failing, quite the contrary. Even when faced with hate and limited supplies, the Qunari remained in Kirkwall, solely because it was their duty to the Qun.

Haven't we been through this already? By my book, not recovering your relic and getting slaughtered to the man in a battle that served no purpose whatsoever and achieved absolutely nothing, isn't exactly a military success worthy of epic tales.

But they did recover their relic and they didn't get "slaughtered" to a man. Actually only a scant few hundreds of them managed to claim a city housing thousands of humans, elves and dwarves.

[cglasgow]

Porenferser wrote...

Well, they didn't kill *everybody*, they killed everyone who fought.

The Viscount fought?

And they were going to kill the nobles if the nobles didn't submit to the Qun.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...It's not very nice of the qun to lie about such things, is it?

It is lie for you because you do not believe. But it is not a lie for them, as they do believe. The statement: God exists, can be truth or lie, based on who says it. (I bring up God all the time as it is the easiest to relate to. I could go and say.. uhm... is it a lie to claim that the Earth is a globe, or did people not lie when they believed there is an end of the world or... don't know, how did the universe come to exist).

[Lianaar]

Well, according to Fenris, they kill everyone who doesn't agree to the Qun. Never tried that option though

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But they did recover their relic and they didn't get "slaughtered" to a man. Actually only a scant few hundreds of them managed to claim a city housing thousands of humans, elves and dwarves.

The tevinter mage who bought the book from castillon, and the tal vashoth in the hanged man who tells me that all Qunari in kirkwall died, certainly disagree. But those five hundred eight foot tall elite warriors, with every possible military advantage at hand certainly showed it to a few civillians and a dozen guards, before getting butchered by less then twenty humans and elves.

[Porenferser]

The Viscount died for his incompetence.
Well, I admit that he didn't had to be killed, but at least be discontinued.

I don't say that they are pure good.
But they act comprehensible.

[Lianaar]

And in other forums people complain your choices matter not. *whistles sleepily*

[Lithuasil]

Lianaar wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...It's not very nice of the qun to lie about such things, is it?

It is lie for you because you do not believe. But it is not a lie for them, as they do believe. The statement: God exists, can be truth or lie, based on who says it. (I bring up God all the time as it is the easiest to relate to. I could go and say.. uhm... is it a lie to claim that the Earth is a globe, or did people not lie when they believed there is an end of the world or... don't know, how did the universe come to exist).

It's a lie because, according to anything we see in the game, the Qun fails to provide. Say for example that protection Shaemus got because he was 'of the qun'. Having someone shoot his murderer two hours to late. Real life-saver there.

[cglasgow]

Porenferser wrote...

But they act comprehensible.

Dude, the Archdemon is 'comprehensible'.   Danarius is 'comprehensible'.   Meredith is 'comprehensible'.

'Comprehensible' only means that your goals and motivation are readily apparent to an outside observer.   It in no way means that you are agreeable, acceptable, or even tolerable.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:17 .

[Beerfish]

Porenferser wrote...

The Viscount died for his incompetence.
Well, I admit that he didn't had to be killed, but at least be discontinued.

I don't say that they are pure good.
But they act comprehensible.

So according to the Arishok and the qunari that because the viscout was incompetant and didn't get the desired results he was killed?

Gee the Arishok sitting on his fat ass in his compound for 10 years doing nothing to look for his book and Hawke comes up with it quickly, now there is flat out incompetance.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lithuasil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

But they did recover their relic and they didn't get "slaughtered" to a man. Actually only a scant few hundreds of them managed to claim a city housing thousands of humans, elves and dwarves.

The tevinter mage who bought the book from castillon, and the tal vashoth in the hanged man who tells me that all Qunari in kirkwall died, certainly disagree. But those five hundred eight foot tall elite warriors, with every possible military advantage at hand certainly showed it to a few civillians and a dozen guards, before getting butchered by less then twenty humans and elves.

If you duel the Arishok, the Qunari will leave Kirkwall peacefully since the demand of the Qun has been satisfied and their reason for being in Kirkwall is no longer.
Oh, and the Qunari in Kirkwall had the advantage of what? No having all their weapons and armor and being outnumbered?..... Right. And they didn't kill any civillians who didn't offer resistance. Vocal resistance was apparently also punishable.

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
It's a lie because, according to anything we see in the game, the Qun fails to provide. Say for example that protection Shaemus got because he was 'of the qun'. Having someone shoot his murderer two hours to late. Real life-saver there.

You want to see it as a fail and thus you look at it as fail.
The Qun is satisfied is revenge is taken. That is part of being provided. And that has also a reason to it, though I might be too sleepy to properly explain.

The studies on motivation and demotivation show that punishment only serve their purpose if they are unevitable.
The death of a single person matters not. However taking revenge on the death of every person who is a member will make others not even think on harming the Qunari and thus revenge serves the entire people. The death of the offendor is thus serving the Qun and through the death the Qunary served the Qun and its people.

For the Qun a single person matters not. You are no longer a body, you are part of a body. And just like you defend your fingers from being cut off, the Qun will defend every member or body part. (There is a reference on the body parts and each group within the Qun representing a body part in the codex).

[Porenferser]

Alright, let me say it like this:

If I would have to choose one ruler over Thedas, I would choose the Qunari.
Because they have the strength to do so.

Humans?
Too easy to seduce.

Elves?
Too weak.

Dwarfes?
Too corrupted.

The Qunari are the only *strong* People in this world.
Surely they are extreme, but a world under their reign would last longest.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

The Viscount died for his incompetence.
Well, I admit that he didn't had to be killed, but at least be discontinued.

I don't say that they are pure good.
But they act comprehensible.

So according to the Arishok and the qunari that because the viscout was incompetant and didn't get the desired results he was killed?

Gee the Arishok sitting on his fat ass in his compound for 10 years doing nothing to look for his book and Hawke comes up with it quickly, now there is flat out incompetance.

We don't know how much work the Arishok did for getting the book, since he had no desire to share that information with us. For all we know he spent every waking hour, baring a few minutes of conversations with delegates, devoted to finding the book. Being 8 feet tall, being horned and in a foreign country can however make it hard to get contacts. And the Qun was also demanding of him, not to simply burn Kirkwall to the ground, and search through the rubble.

[Lianaar]

cglasgow wrote...
Dude, the Archdemon is 'comprehensible'.   Danarius is 'comprehensible'.   Meredith is 'comprehensible'.
'Comprehensible' only means that your goals and motivation are readily apparent to an outside observer.   It in no way means that you are agreeable, acceptable, or even tolerable.

So? That is why the game is good. You can decide which you agree with. And you can build different characters with different views. However the npcs are well rounded and logical within their own reasoning. There is a logical choice (with given preset) where you side with Danarius, or Meredith. I bet some do give in the Archdemon too (though unevitable death is rather disheartening. Choices aren't always the best choices, but they do have their own logic).

[cglasgow]

If single people matter not, then the Qun is a path to personal satisfaction how?

[Lianaar]

It is not a path to personal satisfaction. It is a path to society's satisfavtion. They don't understand the princip of individualism as much as you don't undestand the lack there of.

[cglasgow]

Lianaar wrote...

It is not a path to personal satisfaction. It is a path to society's satisfaction.

'Society' doesn't have a satisfaction; its not alive, its not a person, its not even anything except an emergent phenomenon of the interaction of a large # of individuals.  You might as well talk about the 'satisfaction' of a corporation(*), or a cloud.


(*) As opposed to 'events are proceeding according to the satisfaction of the majority stockholders', who actually are people.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 10:30 .

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you duel the Arishok, the Qunari will leave Kirkwall peacefully since the demand of the Qun has been satisfied and their reason for being in Kirkwall is no longer.
Oh, and the Qunari in Kirkwall had the advantage of what? No having all their weapons and armor and being outnumbered?..... Right. And they didn't kill any civillians who didn't offer resistance. Vocal resistance was apparently also punishable.

Guess what, being a five foot girl in a dress, I kindly declined that totally honorable offer for a one on one.
And let me see - you have the element of surprise, three years to plan every single detail, and five hundred elite warriors, physically massively superior to anyone else, stationed inside the very heart of the city you're trying to conquer. Nope, hardly any advantage at all. But I guess since they only killed anyone who looked at them funny, that makes it ok then.

[Porenferser]

Lianaar wrote...

It is not a path to personal satisfaction. It is a path to society's satisfavtion. They don't understand the princip of individualism as much as you don't undestand the lack there of.

Or lets say it the other way around:

Societys satisfaction is the only satisfaction they desire.

[Lithuasil]

Porenferser wrote...

The Qunari are the only *strong* People in this world.
Surely they are extreme, but a world under their reign would last longest.

Hardly - systems like that of the qun can only work, as long as there's someone to fight. Every single attempt to enact similar systems in reality, has shown that such systems crumble the second there's no outside enemy to fight.

And also - being ruled by the qun would kind of be the second worst possible imagination of thedas to live in, with only a successful blight being slightly more horrible. (Actually, screw that, the darkspawn only kill you - Qunari rule would be the single worst outcome for all sentient life in Thedas)