647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not going to. The Arishok can come to the conclusion. If not official Chantry backing, then backing from Meredith, the real power in the city. Why didn't she stop one of her Templars rallying a mass of thugs who want to murder Qunari on sight?

Why didn't she stop Ser Thrask from getting into a conspiracy with freaking blood mages?  Why didn't she stop those other blood mages from jamming demons into her templar recruits?  Why why why?

Answer: because she's not omniscient or omnipresent?  Sheesh.

You do realize that your defense of the Arishok has retreated all the way back to 'He was too stupid to know what was really going on and jumped to a completely wrong conclusion?'   Yeah, like that's really going to impress me with the awesome qunari leadership skills here.

Modifié par cglasgow, 23 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

Besides, it's Real politik. Most accords are signed to be broken.

So, after adamantly claiming that the qunari didn't do it, once its finally become obvious that they actually did do it, the goalposts suddenly move to 'But everybody else does it too its not really wrong!'

Nope. If they did break the treaty explictly, everyone would have declared war. They didn't. They had 3 years to and we see Qunari emissaries being sent to Kirkwall as normal.

But I know that the Qunari will break it. And I fail to see why not.

It's not contradictory at all, nor is it depserate "apologism". I do not mind whether they break or don't break it. I am questionign the fact that they did break it in DA2, without really caring if they did or not.

[cglasgow]

... you have now completely lost the plot and exist only in your own private universe of denial.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...
Why didn't she stop Ser Thrask from getting into a conspiracy with freaking blood mages?  Why didn't she stop those other blood mages from jamming demons into her templar recruits?  Why why why?

Answer: because she's not omniscient or omnipresent?  Sheesh.

You do realize that your defense of the Arishok has retreated all the way back to 'He was too stupid to know what was really going on and jumped to a completely wrong conclusion?'   Yeah, like that's really going to impress me with the awesome qunari leadership skills here.

I am not arguing to impress you and quite frankly, I don't really care.

The situation after Act 2 was very different than before. After Act 2 Meredith started losing control. During Act 2, she had almost complete control over her Templars. Since she did not show up in the Act, we don't know if the Arishok contacted her or tried to. Or if the Viscount gave the impression that he can't do ****.

However if he did establish contact and Meredith gave the impression that she doesn't mind, then he's perfectly justifiied. If he didn't even try, then yea he'd be politically incompetent in not realizing who really held the shots.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2011 - 12:43 .

[Superposition]

 Let me use a different fictional scenario.

Let's say that tomorrow a huge alien spaceship lands somewhere in Earth. After one day the aliens send the following message.

" Dear human, 
your species has reached a critical point in it's evolutionary path. For several reasons, that we cannot explain to you, we have to intervene. Every human will get implants, which will monitor his cognitive functions. Additionally these implants will faciliate communication with our central computational unit. Our central computational unit will be responsible for the administration of your whole species and the rest of the biosphere. We  gurantee that under our administration the quality of life of the average human will be significaly improved.

We know that you need some time to emotionally proccess this informational so we will not commence our operation for a year unless you ask us to do so.

Addendum : Every human has the choice to either accept the implants or be recycled. Any kind of hostility against us or the human populance that has received implants will be met with  force. All nuclear weapons must be destroyed within 2 months. All other kinds of weaponary must be destroyed within 5 months.  

Thank you"

How would you respond if such event happened ? What are the qualitive differences with the "quanari scenario" ? Would you use the same line of reasoning in both cases ? 


 

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...

 Let me use a different fictional scenario.

Let's say that tomorrow a huge alien spaceship lands somewhere in Earth. After one day the aliens send the following message.

" Dear human, 
your species has reached a critical point in it's evolutionary path. For several reasons, that we cannot explain to you, we have to intervene. Every human will get implants, which will monitor his cognitive functions. Additionally these implants will faciliate communication with our central computational unit. Our central computational unit will be responsible for the administration of your whole species and the rest of the biosphere. We  gurantee that under our administration the quality of life of the average human will be significaly improved.

We know that you need some time to emotionally proccess this informational so we will not commence our operation for a year unless you ask us to do so.

Addendum : Every human has the choice to either accept the implants or be recycled. Any kind of hostility against us or the human populance that has received implants will be met with  force. All nuclear weapons must be destroyed within 2 months. All other kinds of weaponary must be destroyed within 5 months.  

Thank you"

How would you respond if such event happened ? What are the qualitive differences with the "quanari scenario" ? Would you use the same line of reasoning in both cases ? 


 

I'm not quite sure who's supposed to be who in this scenario

[Superposition]

Aliens ~ Qunari, humans ~ rest of Thedas.

[Lithuasil]

Good, since I got that right - my answer would be pretty much the same as it is regarding the Qunari - to dispose of the available nuclear weaponry via launch, and blast said spaceship as far away as possible. (And since Anders knows the formular, Thedas has the bomb )

[blothulfur]

Oi laughing boy do one or i'll rip your jacobs off and shove that implant up your arse.

I'm not fond of aliens even though i've never met one.

Modifié par blothulfur, 23 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[szsleepy]

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told.  

Wow, way to misinterpret the Qun.

The Qunari, or, those who follow the Demands of the Qun are existentialists at their core.  They are not willing slaves to the doctrine of a tyrant.  They choose to act within their assigned role for the betterment of the whole Qun.  It is understood that, if they follow the demands of the Qun within their role, others will do the same.  And with that certainty there is no possibility for suffering, injustice, or poverty. 

This is why the Tal'Vashok are so hated.  The Tal'Vashok had roles within the Qun, and have rejected them.  They have offended the very premise of the Qun itself.  It is not a personal offense.  It is a cultural offense beyond redemption.

All who follow the Demands of the Qun are free.  They do as they are told, because their role demands it, and in doing so, they provide all others who follow the Qun with the same certainty that they themselves enjoy.

[Lithuasil]

szsleepy wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told.  

Wow, way to misinterpret the Qun.

The Qunari, or, those who follow the Demands of the Qun are existentialists at their core.  They are not willing slaves to the doctrine of a tyrant.  They choose to act within their assigned role for the betterment of the whole Qun.  It is understood that, if they follow the demands of the Qun within their role, others will do the same.  And with that certainty there is no possibility for suffering, injustice, or poverty. 

This is why the Tal'Vashok are so hated.  The Tal'Vashok had roles within the Qun, and have rejected them.  They have offended the very premise of the Qun itself.  It is not a personal offense.  It is a cultural offense beyond redemption.

All who follow the Demands of the Qun are free.  They do as they are told, because their role demands it, and in doing so, they provide all others who follow the Qun with the same certainty that they themselves enjoy.

So basically, exactly what I've said plus some half-competent brainwashing?

[szsleepy]

Lithuasil wrote...

szsleepy wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told.  

Wow, way to misinterpret the Qun.

The Qunari, or, those who follow the Demands of the Qun are existentialists at their core.  They are not willing slaves to the doctrine of a tyrant.  They choose to act within their assigned role for the betterment of the whole Qun.  It is understood that, if they follow the demands of the Qun within their role, others will do the same.  And with that certainty there is no possibility for suffering, injustice, or poverty. 

This is why the Tal'Vashok are so hated.  The Tal'Vashok had roles within the Qun, and have rejected them.  They have offended the very premise of the Qun itself.  It is not a personal offense.  It is a cultural offense beyond redemption.

All who follow the Demands of the Qun are free.  They do as they are told, because their role demands it, and in doing so, they provide all others who follow the Qun with the same certainty that they themselves enjoy.

So basically, exactly what I've said plus some half-competent brainwashing?

There is no brainwashing involved whatsoever.  The people that convert to the Qun are only educated as to the true nature of the Qun.  They are not forced to convert in any way.  Those who accept the Qun are free to deny it all the same.  One who was not previously of the Qun would not be hunted and killed as the Tal'Vashok are. 

The only reason there was ever a war with the Qunari was because the Chantry declared it so.  Thus began the Exalted Marches against the "heretical" Qunari.

You really need to read your Codex more.

[Lithuasil]

szsleepy wrote...
There is no brainwashing involved whatsoever.  The people that convert to the Qun are only educated as to the true nature of the Qun.  They are not forced to convert in any way.  Those who accept the Qun are free to deny it all the same.  One who was not previously of the Qun would not be hunted and killed as the Tal'Vashok are. 

The only reason there was ever a war with the Qunari was because the Chantry declared it so.  Thus began the Exalted Marches against the "heretical" Qunari.

You really need to read your Codex more.

I think if there's a self proclaimed civilization who makes "being raped, murdered and eaten by darkspawn" sound more appealing then living under their rule, I'm not sure if more information about them is what I want...

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ sleepy
Um no. The Qunari were the conquerors. They conquered Par Vollen, then Seheron and Rivain and advanced into Tevinter. It was only after a century that the Chantry declared an exalted march.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Uh nevermind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2011 - 01:16 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
I think if there's a self proclaimed civilization who makes "being raped, murdered and eaten by darkspawn" sound more appealing then living under their rule, I'm not sure if more information about them is what I want...

classic case of info fitting a pre-defined conclusion and not caring to investigate more because the conclusion was already pre-defined.

After five pages of social-philosophical discussion, and ten pages of outright denial and several people, including someone with a burning bird in his name, projecting so hard, they could show powerpoint, all of which failed to convince me otherwise? 

Sten: "No"

[MrStorm2K]

Lithuasil wrote...
The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told.  

Ahem.

Leliana: You're so qunari! All the stories speak as if you were a hurricane or an earthquake rather than people.

Sten: Qunari are most dangerous because we are thinking men and not unthinking force.

Plato's Republic is a good read if you actually want to know the thinking behind the idea of societal roles. If not, then I pity you.

Modifié par MrStorm2K, 23 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I did not project at all. Maybe because, shock shock, I don't fit in the nice little dichotomy you created where someone either has to adore the Qunari, or hate them with a passion.

[Lithuasil]

MrStorm2K wrote...

Plato's Republic is a good read if you actually want to know the thinking behind the idea of societal roles. If not, then I pity you.

I did read it. And in fact, it's been discussed in this very thread. For the concept to work, you need someone perfect, unfailable at the top. The only Qunari leader we actually gets to see, gives the impression of being unable to tell you if it's day or night without being wrong. twice.

And before a certain someone jumps out again saying "but those other qunari we don't get to see...", the chances that all the qunari priests back in Par Vollen are indeed perfect, beyond fail and send by the maker himself are, let's say, slim.

Without perfect leaders, platos whole idea falls apart completely.

[MrStorm2K]

Lithuasil wrote...
And before a certain someone jumps out again saying "but those other qunari we don't get to see...", the chances that all the qunari priests back in Par Vollen are indeed perfect, beyond fail and send by the maker himself are, let's say, slim.

Without perfect leaders, platos whole idea falls apart completely.

The philosopher-king in Plato's work didn't need to be perfect, per se. I would also add that the Qunari are similar to Plato's system, not identical.

You asked what the appeal of the Qunari is, and apparently you know. So why do you continue you ask what the appeal is? Or do you just take issue with it being a flawed system?

[Superposition]

MrStorm2K wrote...
The philosopher-king in Plato's work didn't need to be perfect, per se. 

Is it easy to explain why is that ? It's been 15 years since I have read it.

Modifié par Superposition, 23 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[Lithuasil]

MrStorm2K wrote...
You asked what the appeal of the Qunari is, and apparently you know. So why do you continue you ask what the appeal is? Or do you just take issue with it being a flawed system?

I asked if there is more appeal to it then has met my eye (so far, no one has brought up any). What I take issue with, isn't the notion of a system being flawed, or even wishing to be part of a flawed system. What bothers me is the amount of neglect people show about it.
See I pretty much drink nothing but Coke and similar liquids - that's not healthy, and might even objectively be stupid, but I can justify it (to myself anyway) because I accept that. Neither do I desperately claim that soft drinks are healthy, nor do I complain about the side effects such behavior might have on my body. That's a perfectly fine decision, and I can say *why* I do so, and why those reasons, to me, outweigh the downsides.
What I cannot stand however, is people claiming similar about decisions or beliefs that lack the same intellectual grounds, and are made on the basis of not knowing, or straight out ignoring the implications and consequences.
That I take issue with, and that's where I (in all my mortal arrogance) have a hard time "respecting someone elses opinion", when said opinion lacks the ground on which respect could be granted in the first place.

[Scimal]

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told. As interesting antagonists as they are, how can anyone support them? Those willfully submitting to the Qun are the most spineless, most pathetic individuals possibly imaginable - worse then any servant, worse then any slave because they willfully give themselves into slavery to avoid having to find purpose themselves. They neglect the very basis of what makes any conscious individual. Even the most shoddy beggar or cutthroat in darktown, even the most weak-willed bloodmage displays more backbone then the arishok does - at some point or another, those all at least tried, where the Arishok just goes "well the qun demands, and I'm too stupid to think or care on my own". How can anyone honestly praise and support those people, seriously? 

You don't want someone to explain anything to you. You want someone to stand up for the Qunari so you can rip their arguments apart one by one until you perceive your own preconceptions to have ousted and bested those of a fictional religion's.

I sure hope the last 18 or so pages of this thread (which I haven't read) isn't just you endlessly bickering with forumites as you try and add veracity to your work.

When you're actually ready to have the Qun explained to you, feel free to message me. I'd be happy to engage in conversation with you, but until then - enjoy your little egotistical charade here.

[MrStorm2K]

So, if I understand correctly, you have issues with people saying or thinking it's a flawless system, or just downplaying its flaws.

If so, fair enough. I'd agree.

[Lithuasil]

MrStorm2K wrote...

So, if I understand correctly, you have issues with people saying or thinking it's a flawless system, or just downplaying its flaws.

If so, fair enough. I'd agree.

Pretty much, though the fact that said system disturbs and offends me on a personal level might have made the Op a little harsher then necessary.