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[Superposition]

However doesn't every system have flows ? Furthermore what would be the point of political philosophy if there was a "universally" best system ? Do you expect that every person who plays this game has attended Political Philosophy 101 ?

Modifié par Superposition, 23 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Superposition wrote...

However doesn't every system have flows ? Furthermore what would be the point of political philosophy if there was a "universally" best system ? Do you expect that every person who plays this game to have attended Political Philosophy 101 ?

The Qunari can be criticized for exactly thinking that their system is flawless or universally best, when it clearly isn't.

That's my major criticism. Thinking that there is a universal best system that transcends time and space always ends up sounding naive to me. At best, you can claim that some principles that can transcend time and space can offer a unviersal best kind of guidelines. But the Qun is more than that.

Now they can reasonably argue that they currently have one of the best societies in terms of functionaility, if not the best in certain domains. And I would concur on some of it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...

However doesn't every system have flows ? Furthermore what would be the point of political philosophy if there was a "universally" best system ? Do you expect that every person who plays this game has attended Political Philosophy 101 ?

Read my (second to) last post more closely - I have no problem with anyone deciding to favor a certain political or philosophical system. On the basis of a reflected decision. Present me with reasons why you would want to do something, taking the flaws and consequences of such a decision into account, and I can perfectly accept that.
It's ignorance I take issue with - and saying something like "I want to join the qun because it values honesty" that's simply ignorance.

In other words - tell me why you are content with the flaws of a given system, and still think the gain (for you) out values the cost, and that you're fine with bearing the consequences, and while I might disagree with your decision I will respect it.
However try and tell me that the obvious flaws are simply not there, and I will take issue with your position - that's not political philosophy, that's honesty 101. (But then, honesty and self reflection seem to come out of fashion more and more)

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Scimal wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told. As interesting antagonists as they are, how can anyone support them? Those willfully submitting to the Qun are the most spineless, most pathetic individuals possibly imaginable - worse then any servant, worse then any slave because they willfully give themselves into slavery to avoid having to find purpose themselves. They neglect the very basis of what makes any conscious individual. Even the most shoddy beggar or cutthroat in darktown, even the most weak-willed bloodmage displays more backbone then the arishok does - at some point or another, those all at least tried, where the Arishok just goes "well the qun demands, and I'm too stupid to think or care on my own". How can anyone honestly praise and support those people, seriously? 

You don't want someone to explain anything to you. You want someone to stand up for the Qunari so you can rip their arguments apart one by one until you perceive your own preconceptions to have ousted and bested those of a fictional religion's.

I sure hope the last 18 or so pages of this thread (which I haven't read) isn't just you endlessly bickering with forumites as you try and add veracity to your work.

When you're actually ready to have the Qun explained to you, feel free to message me. I'd be happy to engage in conversation with you, but until then - enjoy your little egotistical charade here.

That's exactly what this thread has been, although seeing posts by KoP and cglasgow have been a great read and very informative. Just ignore anything by the OP and you'll get a lot out of this thread.

[szsleepy]

To be honest, I think you have no clue what you're talking about. I think you're so inundated by your cultural memes to have any depth of understanding about anything beyond the American dream.

Capitalism is a disease.

[Scars Unseen]

Dangerfoot wrote...

JW the Great wrote...

"...and the worst are full of a terrible resolve." That's the Qunari right there. They deal in absolutes and are perfectly willing to murder anyone who disagrees with them.

The Chantry isn't much better; don't make that mistake.

They weren't that bad until all of the DA2 retcons.

The Right of Annulment  and Exalted Marches existed prior to DA2.  Yes, the Chantry is that bad.  There are good people in the Chantry, but its overall influence has been to destroy anything that isn't Chantry.

[Superposition]

Lithuasil wrote...
It's ignorance I take issue with 

Let me see if I understand :
you have issues with the fact that some people cannot recognize that the political system of the Quanari is flawed.
Yet you recognize that the system that advocates that it's ruling class should be the least ignorant is flawed.
Bit ironic? 

What I cannot understand is why do you extend our knoweldege of political philosophy to non human species in a fanstasy setting. If you do this kind of connection you need to  make certain assumptions about the quanari. In reality only the writers know the flaws of the Quanari society.

[cglasgow]

Scars Unseen wrote...

The Right of Annulment and Exalted Marches existed prior to DA2.  Yes, the Chantry is that bad.

Actually, one of the most surprising moments for me in the game was during the templar ending, when I found out that even the Right of Annulment is supposed to authorize the templars to only kill blood mages and maleficar, not every mage, and that Meredith was doing it wrong.

You know who said that? Cullen.  When he pointed out that Greagoir letting Irving and Wynne and the others live, despite a Right of Annulment having already been called, was still perfectly legal.

Cullen: "The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvation. The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here."

Also: 

Cullen: "But they haven't resorted to [blood magic], even to save their own lives.  Perhaps if watch them carefully-"

Meredith: "And if they hope to escape by playing innocent?  Would you accept that responsibility, Cullen?"

Cullen: "Yes.  I believe that's what being a templar is about."



Starting at about 2 minutes in.

Modifié par cglasgow, 23 mars 2011 - 04:36 .

[Lianaar]

Weltenschlange wrote...
What I'm trying to say is that in a "normal" society I'm allowed at least some degree of autonomy.

I think you summed it up pretty well.
normal = accustomary, general, things you are used to
deviant = different then normal
For -YOU- it is normal to have autonomy. That is what you see around you, what you live in, what you believe in. But you can not expect that to be "normal" for others. It is your normal, not THE normal. There is no such thing as THE normal.

For some people it is normal to wear red on the wedding, for some it is normal to throw stones at a guilty party until they die, for some it is normal to behead wives they no longer need, for some it is normal to run around nude at the beach. Normal is utterly subjective. It can not be analysed and interpreted without analysing the culture that produced said normal.

For the Qunary autonomy is not normal. For them, it is evident, that they are just members of something greater. Their normal is giving up yourself for the whole. For them it is deviant to think on yourself, to have goals aside from the Qun.

A cultural difference in base views. I merely say you can not drag the Qun and analyse it in our modern Western traditional thinking. It doesn't fit there. It is deviant by default. It is not even meant to fit there. In a different environment however it is the logical answer.

[Lianaar]

Scars Unseen wrote...Yes, the Chantry is that bad.  There are good people in the Chantry, but its overall influence has been to destroy anything that isn't Chantry.

Well, the Faith itself says, only if the Chant is sang at all corners of the world, will the Maker return.
This alone is enough for the Chantry to be bad. Because the religion demands them to hate anything, that is not Chantry. Theoretically the Chantry is oblidged to wage holy wars against any and everyone.

But there are some good people who ignore that little part of the Chant, luckily.

[Zenstrive]

szsleepy wrote...


Capitalism is a disease.

ain't that right!

[Zenstrive]

Lithuasil wrote...

I think if there's a self proclaimed civilization who makes "being raped, murdered and eaten by darkspawn" sound more appealing then living under their rule, I'm not sure if more information about them is what I want...

you can always chose being made tranquil, and then get raped, murdered, and eaten by darkspawn.

or you can accept The Qun, work as a worker or craftsman or artists (being as emo as you are naturally go) and let the Karashoks and Karastens face the darkspawn.

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...


Let me see if I understand :
you have issues with the fact that some people cannot recognize that the political system of the Quanari is flawed.
Yet you recognize that the system that advocates that it's ruling class should be the least ignorant is flawed.
Bit ironic? 

What I cannot understand is why do you extend our knoweldege of political philosophy to non human species in a fanstasy setting. If you do this kind of connection you need to  make certain assumptions about the quanari. In reality only the writers know the flaws of the Quanari society.

It would be, if I would take issue with the flaws existing in the first place. That's not the problem I have. If someone wants to smoke three packs a day, as long as they don't do it around me, their call. It is only when they try to tell me that it's totally badass and real healthy, that I advocate slapping them.

As to your second question - 
Firstly - no Idea, be it religious, political, philosophical can exist solely in a fantasy product, if said product is created and consumed by humans (See "The molussian catacomb / Die molussische Katakombe" by Günther Anders).
Secondly - because that's what I do. I'm a novelist. Writing, which will always involve beliefs, characters and world views that are beyond me, is what pays the bills. So essentially, trying to understand fictional belief systems that seem to hold an appeal beyond enjoying them as antagonists, and observing the different reactions in such a thread, from the trolls to the roleplayers, from people that claim "horns are cool" to people that draw real life comparisons, I regard that as part of my job.

Zenstrive wrote...


you can always chose being made tranquil, and then get raped, murdered, and eaten by darkspawn.

or you can accept The Qun, work as a worker or craftsman or artists (being as emo as you are naturally go) and let the Karashoks and Karastens face the darkspawn.

From where I'm sitting, submitting to the Qun is essentially being made tranquil, only worse - at least a tranquil doesn't remember how it was before. I'll take my chances with the darkspawn.

[dirk5027]

  You have Blood mages gone wild, Corrupt templars OR good templars confused of what to do or who to take orders from, carta, bandits, thieves running rampant in the streets, and a Robin Hood vigilante(Hawke) running around in the middle of all of it taking matters into his own hands.
  DA2 has been enjoyable for me, BUT I do feel many areas of the story AND many of the characters are shallow
  Then we get to the Arishok, 8 to 9 feet tall, solid wall of muscle, powerful warrior, deep authoratative voice..he speaks you listen
(I think they altered the voice, but the voice actor was unbelievable)
 The Qunari is one of the only groups in this game, that knows who and what they are and holds no apologies for it
 The Qunari are some of the best characters in this game
 I did not want to fight the Qunari, I wanted a third option, fight the pirates and Isabella, and return the book
 So as for the topic of this thread, the appeal is probably mostly for male players, but this is supposed to be an rpg after all, so if many men are gonna role play, why wouldn't they want to play as a Qunari, I know I would (These Qunari by the way, not Sten, hated him)

[Lianaar]

Lithuasil wrote...
It would be, if I would take issue with the flaws existing in the first place. That's not the problem I have. If someone wants to smoke three packs a day, as long as they don't do it around me, their call. It is only when they try to tell me that it's totally badass and real healthy, that I advocate slapping them.

And what about people who don't want to tell you?
Your original question sounded as this: tell me why someone can find the Qun appealing. You got various answers to this.
But you seem to think people want to make you believe the Qun is good.
Which isn't the case. Many posts here are not about horned people being cool and badass. Nor atempting to make you believe they are or their way of life is the perfect one.

Modifié par Lianaar, 23 mars 2011 - 01:18 .

[Zan Mura]

How does it work when you're a new convert into the Qun btw? For those born into it, their roles are basically pre-determined, but what about someone who joins later. The point being that for someone who already has obvious strenghts and weaknesses and different tendencies, logically they would be of better service to the Qun if they were provided with a role that supported their strengths. Why make a smith into a warrior, or an extremely proficient warrior and military leader into a farmer? For instance.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They submit to re-education by the Tamassrans. Just because you have been a merchant your entire life in Kirkwall, does not neccesarily equate that it is the ideal profession for you. The Tamassrans will evaluate your qualities and teach you about the Qun and your duties within the Qun, after which you are assigned your new title(/name) and profession.

[Weltenschlange]

Lianaar wrote...
I think you summed it up pretty well.
normal = accustomary, general, things you are used to
deviant = different then normal
For -YOU- it is normal to have autonomy. That is what you see around you, what you live in, what you believe in. But you can not expect that to be "normal" for others. It is your normal, not THE normal. There is no such thing as THE normal.

For some people it is normal to wear red on the wedding, for some it is normal to throw stones at a guilty party until they die, for some it is normal to behead wives they no longer need, for some it is normal to run around nude at the beach. Normal is utterly subjective. It can not be analysed and interpreted without analysing the culture that produced said normal.

For the Qunary autonomy is not normal. For them, it is evident, that they are just members of something greater. Their normal is giving up yourself for the whole. For them it is deviant to think on yourself, to have goals aside from the Qun.

A cultural difference in base views. I merely say you can not drag the Qun and analyse it in our modern Western traditional thinking. It doesn't fit there. It is deviant by default. It is not even meant to fit there. In a different environment however it is the logical answer.

Well, my post from which you quoted was actually just meant to show how Qunari society is so drastically different from all other societies in Thedas. It wasn't about what is "normal" (reason why I used parenthesis).

I think it is a waste of personal and societal potential to have sapient beings living in a total belief system like the Qun.

I am also of the of the opinion that we not only can use our "modern Western [...] thinking" to analyze the Qun but we have to. We do not have a perfect society but we acknowledge that and have the ability to improve it over time. Part of this process are discussions not unlike the one that is taking place in this thread.

A TBS like the Qun on the other hand presents itself as perfect from the day of its inception. As a Qunari openly discussing the potential value of alternative approaches means that you are not accepting the Qun like you should. The Qun can never change because it is already perfect, which means that you are a tal'vashoth that has to be killed.

Judging every ideology based on its own tenets is folly. Or to misquote Alistair: "Relativism is bad..."

[Felene]

The appeal of the Qun is order.

The Qun is perfect in my opinion. The only thing that's not perfect is humanity.

The Qun is honest, they see the world in black and white, you either fall in line or you GTFO. Simple and easy.

As for the "thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt" part. Ironically,the Qun takes all responsibility to itself. Because some people just can't take it.

A teenage mother who can't feed her child.

A person who lack of trade makes a living by thievery and robbery.

Those who can't take responsibility of their own action ends up forcing the society step in and suffer it for them.

This is the downside for freedom of choice.

The Arishok didn't randomly landed and start killing those who don't follow the Qun.

He is like an adult watching kids playing with knives for 3 years while he is stuck in Kirkwall.

Finally, one of the kids throw the knife in his face and he had enough just sitting there do nothing.

He step in.

Who has more backbone? The viscount who tirelessly try to maintain order and fail because his fear for the Chantry?

What kind of backbone can a bloodmage have when he falls to the influence he try so hard to deny.

One who can admit his own weakness has more backbone then one who deny his own weakness.

I think the OP is just upset about the way Qunari handle mage problem. What is wrong with "not taken any chances?"

Not all mages are bad, yet not all mages are good.

Between a few good mages and non-mage population. There is something call for the greater good.

And because of humanity, a few "good mages" are going to yell "That is not fair."

One can't change the fact that all mages(or people in power) has the possibility to abuse their power(again, humanity).

So the Chantry invented the Circle, the middle ground.

Then Anders/Justice come in remove that fragile balance point. He become the catalyst in this situation.

So either the world start treating mages like the way Qunari does, or wait long enough for this problem to happen again.

Modifié par Felene, 23 mars 2011 - 08:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Even the Saarebas of the Qunari submit themselves willingly to their duty in the Qun. They accept their role.

And why do so many presume that the Qun is unchanging? If anything it appears to be more flexible than the usual feudal system in Thedas. If an entirely new discovery is made, the Qunari will ponder its uses and adapt if those uses are proven useful for the Qun as a whole. The Qunari for instance discovered blackpowder and adapted.
Speculation from my part now, but they probably also at one point discovered how magic could be responsibly controlled (in the eyes of the Qunari anyway), and adapted.
They also probably discovered that their hornless kin was better at interactions with the other races of Thedas, which is why they stick them in the Vanguard, where they will have more interactions with said races.
The Arishok also asked Sten to find an answer to his question about the Blight, probably so he could asses its threat level and wether or not it was something to assign a new role in the Qun.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[PantheraOnca]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Arishok also asked Sten to find an answer to his question about the Blight, probably so he could asses its threat level and wether or not it was something to assign a new role in the Qun.

Delicious qunari greywardens... mmmmm.

[TobiTobsen]

PantheraOnca wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Arishok also asked Sten to find an answer to his question about the Blight, probably so he could asses its threat level and wether or not it was something to assign a new role in the Qun.

Delicious qunari greywardens... mmmmm.

Maybe even one or two females? Just look at the concept art... if I can't get my "big girl" Aveline to fall for me, then give me one of the female qunari to explain them "what is this feeling you call love"

[Lithuasil]

Felene wrote...

I think the OP is just upset about the way Qunari handle mage problem. What is wrong with "not taken any chances?"

What I'm upset about, is essentially posts like yours. You do realize that a world under the Qun would be horrible, and that your own life would be considerably less fun if you lived in such a world?

[Weltenschlange]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Even the Saarebas of the Qunari submit themselves willingly to their duty in the Qun. They accept their role.

Sure, they submit themselves willingly and accept their role.
As far as a heavily conditioned abuse victim that has been indoctrinated since childhood can actually do that.

[cglasgow]

Weltenschlange wrote...

Sure, they submit themselves willingly and accept their role.
As far as a heavily conditioned abuse victim that has been indoctrinated since childhood can actually do that.

Anybody ever read the Discworld novel 'Interesting Times' by Terry Pratchett?

Cohen scowled. 'Now, I've got nothing against slaves, you know, as slaves. Owned a few in my time. Been a slave once or twice. But where there's slaves, what'll you expect to find?'

Rincewind thought about this. 'Whips?' he said at last.

'Yeah. Got it in one. Whips. There's something honest about slaves and whips. Well. . . they ain't got whips here. They got something worse than whips.'

'What?' said Rincewind, looking slightly panicky.

'You'll find out.'

[...]

'Now, see here,' he said. 'I told you. You're free. Understand?'

One of the braver men spoke up. 'Yes, master.'

'I ain't your master. You're free. You can go whereever you like, excepting if you follow me I'll kill the lot of you. And now - go away!'

'Where, master?'

'Anywhere! Somewhere not here!'

The men gave one another some worried looks and then the whole group, as one man, turned and trotted away along the path.

'Probably go straight back to their village,' he said, rolling his eyes. 'Worse than whips, I tell you.'

[...]

Worse than whips, Cohen had said. They've got something here worse than whips. They don't need whips any more.

Rincewind hoped he'd never find out what it was, if it had done this to people.

Now think back on Fenris' story about killing the Fog Warriors who helped him, simply because Danarius came back and told him to.   Before he'd learned what being free actually meant.

Saarebas/Ketojan looks less awe-inspiring and more pitiful now, doesn't he?

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 01:01 .