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[JamesX]

Actually, one of the most surprising moments for me in the game was during the templar ending, when I found out that even the Right of Annulment is supposed to authorize the templars to only kill blood mages and maleficar, not every mage, and that Meredith was doing it wrong.

You know who said that? Cullen.  When he pointed out that Greagoir letting Irving and Wynne and the others live, despite a Right of Annulment having already been called, was still perfectly legal.

Cullen: "The Right has always been a last resort, when every mage involved was beyond salvation. The situation was far more dire in Ferelden's Circle, and yet many mages were saved. We could still do as much here."

Actually what Cullen is talking about is recending the Right of Annulment which it seems Knight Commande has the right to do.  After which it becomes a normal Templar action - e.g. kill those mages endangerous others.  Under the Annulment is called you kill every mage.  Even Gregory in DA:O makes that distinction.  It is like nuking a city because a highly contagious thing is beyond control.

Weltenschlange wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Even the Saarebas of the Qunari submit themselves willingly to their duty in the Qun. They accept their role.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]
Sure, they submit themselves willingly and accept their role.
As far as a heavily conditioned abuse victim that has been indoctrinated since childhood can actually do that.

You make it sound like anyone who believes in something being more important than life is a mindless indoctrinated and abused victim since childhood.  

Like that Kid who stood infront of the tank in Tianmen square is abused and indoctrinated since childhood.  He chose death over life for something he believes in.

Modifié par JamesX, 24 mars 2011 - 01:10 .

[Lithuasil]

JamesX wrote...


Like that Kid who stood infront of the tank in Tianmen square is abused and indoctrinated since childhood.  He chose death over life for something he believes in.

If that kid was not only educated from a young age, but actually bred to fill the purpose of standing in front of those tanks - you know, like Qunari are, then *yes* I'd doubt he freely chose to give his life for a higher cause he genuinely believes in.

[JamesX]

Lithuasil wrote...

If that kid was not only educated from a young age, but actually bred to fill the purpose of standing in front of those tanks - you know, like Qunari are, then *yes* I'd doubt he freely chose to give his life for a higher cause he genuinely believes in.

You think that Kid isn't raised in Chinese culture?  Where Principle/Integrity is taught to be more important than life?  What is the difference between that and teaching Quan?  Which is just a set of guidelines of right and wrong?

This is also not taking into consideration that your belief in freedom and quality is a very american/modern idea.  In fact you are indoctrinated since birth to believe that is the one proper truth.

You are also under the assumption that Mages are bred in Qunari.  Which as far as I can remember is not in any way referrenced or even implied.

Quarni do not Breed people for things.  Their Role is determined by the Quan when they are born.  In the same vein as in ancient society a Black Smith's son is expected to be a Black Smith when he grows up.

I think you are severely overthinking the Quan and Quanris and assigning things unsupported by facts.

This is not even mentioning at this point we have no clue on Qunari reproduction.  Do they actually pair up in accordance to personal perferrence within the same caste or pre-set arrangedment of castes?  Or do they have wild drug induced orgies with the police comnig in and kill the extremely active onse.  etc.  

Without even knowing that you bring in Selective Breeding?  Isn't that reaching?

Modifié par JamesX, 24 mars 2011 - 01:18 .

[Lithuasil]

JamesX wrote...

Without even knowing that you bring in Selective Breeding?  Isn't that reaching?

It's merely taking for face value the arguments brought up by that Phoenix Knight earlier in this thread. Since I didn't do too much research on the Qunari, I assumed he did.
(Though if the Qunari are not the supreme masters of genetics, the whole Qun thing falls apart even more, since the individuals of a generation are never going to exactly match the vacant positions. Which in turn means that the whole "everyone does what he's destined to do and best at" thing is nothing but an elaborate "because the priests say so" scam)

[cglasgow]

Actually, the devs do in fact say that the qunari do selective breeding.

[JamesX]

Developer wrote...

The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general education, and evaulate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles when they are twelve years old. The Tamassrans have some tests, but nothing requiring a #2 pencil. They also have something of a head start on the process, since they are the ones who control the Qunari selective breeding program.

Qunari have been bred for specific roles for a very long time. Parentage isn't really the issue anymore: It's more like pedigree. If you're a soldier, then there have been lots and lots and lots of soldiers in your bloodline, to the extent that you were probably born with the capacity to march in formation. If you were bred to be a fisherman, you are probably drawn to water the way that Labrador Retrievers are compelled, as if by an unseen force, to jump into the swimming pools of the neighbors. But breeding doesn't mean you, specifically, are suited for the job. Maybe you're bred to be a soldier, but you turn out more intellectual -- the Tamassrans may stick you in the priesthood, researching weapons technology or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, or who knows what, depending on what roles need filled by someone with your specific traits.

I think the person who answered have no idea what selective breeding means.

Selective Breeding is you pick the subject with the most desired traits, and mate him to all the fertile receivers, and from those descendents, you pick again the ones with the most desired traits and do the same again.  Over and over and over and distill and distill.  It is what nature does but rushed and controlled by people.

What he is talking about is Soldiers marrying Soldiers and their children becomes soldiers - like medievl knights trace their heritage as knights back hundred of years and tens of generations sort of thing, but extended to a few thousand years instead.  Not Person A is seeded to 1000 women and their children with the best traits reproduce with person A again to get even more pronounced traits.

Modifié par JamesX, 24 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Lithuasil]

And, if I may ask, does growing up in such a society sound appealing to you?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The moment I realised the Qunari system is largly a brainwashing society was when I tried to save the Qunari mage. Look at the life he has his lips are sown shut he'd kept mute, chained and controled with a rod and if he isn't around his 'keeper' every second of his life than he has to be put to death and he's somehow ok with all of this? He sees what his life is like and he thinks that the system that does this to him is the best thing in the world? He'd rather die than leave the Qun and the Qun tells him to die... yeah that is a society that doesn't mind crush its people from a young age.

[JamesX]

Lithuasil wrote...

And, if I may ask, does growing up in such a society sound appealing to you?

You mean as opposed to our own?

Where you grow up, and get interviewed to get into the right pre-school.  Based on that you then goto the right high-school.  Then take the SAT and get into the right college, and make the right connections, and then go work at a workplace owned by someonelse whose talent/heritage put them there, and then you work till you prove your worth and get ever higher salary?

Along the way you meet a life long partner and maybe have children which is then the start of the same cycle?

Does living in that society appeal to you?

BTW I don't care much for Qunari, I am just point out flaws that I see in what people says.  

[blothulfur]

JamesX how dare you speak out against the great state of freedom and its loyal adherents, there is no way but our way and if you acknowledge anything else we despise and ridicule you.

Good on you man.

[Lithuasil]

JamesX wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

And, if I may ask, does growing up in such a society sound appealing to you?

You mean as opposed to our own?

Where you grow up, and get interviewed to get into the right pre-school.  Based on that you then goto the right high-school.  Then take the SAT and get into the right college, and make the right connections, and then go work at a workplace owned by someonelse whose talent/heritage put them there, and then you work till you prove your worth and get ever higher salary?

Along the way you meet a life long partner and maybe have children which is then the start of the same cycle?

Does living in that society appeal to you?

BTW I don't care much for Qunari, I am just point out flaws that I see in what people says.  

Hell no it doesn't. That is to say - if those that make the tests and run the show were infailable, omniscient god-children - I could see the appeal, but still wouldn't want to live there.
But the Qunari priests are not. And as soon as the element of human error is added, the whole concept ends up pretty horrible. Especially if you add in the brainwashing and the "you have no existance and personality beyond what you contribute to society.

And I don't mind anyone joining in, it's an open discussion

[cglasgow]

There's also a difference between 'To get a job, I have to show that I know how to do that job', and 'The results of my grade-school aptitude test will dictate my entire life from that point on, and I can only take it once.'

[ISpeakTheTruth]

@JamesX so let me get this straight you think a system where you get to prove your own worth by taking tests and working hard to get a better life is somehow a bad system? You think taht finding someone that you want to spend the rest of your life with and maybe have children is a bad thing?

If you don't like your job you can get another... there are alot out there (Given with the economy a bit less) and if you don't want to get married or don't want kids guess what you don't have to no one forces you.

The Qunari system is all about force. They tell you what your job is and that's the end of it you have to do that job until you die, if you don't like it than you get to die for saying so. You're not a person anymore you're a cog in a machine that has no name and is only known by your job title. If you ever want to do anything for yourself, have a family, fall in love? Too bad if you do that you die.

Yep what a wonderful system.

[Irish Coffee]

I just wanna say that reading this thread has made me wish the Qunari were real because I would join them in a heartbeat.

I'm pretty good at building stuff, I think I would make a fine smith in the Qun. I wouldn't have to worry about paying rent, struggling to make enough for food, worrying about whether I would lose my job. I love the idea that I am working to actually help my fellow man rather than working to help myself. My job and living is certain, thus I have to only worry about enjoying my life. Sten said he has fun, and that Qunari party and why wouldn't they? It's not like every waking hour is spent making things for the Qun, i'm sure they converse, eat together, drink together.

Dude seriously...i'm all about living under the word of the Qun because of this thread!

[Felene]

Lithuasil wrote...

Felene wrote...

I think the OP is just upset about the way Qunari handle mage problem. What is wrong with "not taken any chances?"

What I'm upset about, is essentially posts like yours. You do realize that a world under the Qun would be horrible, and that your own life would be considerably less fun if you lived in such a world?

Fun? FUN? Despicable. You would prefer your own pleasure and personal gain above all else. I regret taken your post seriously.

[Lithuasil]

Felene wrote...
Fun? FUN? Despicable. You would prefer your own pleasure and personal gain above all else. I regret taken your post seriously.

You realize you make that statement in a forum about a videogame, right? Unless you happen to be a game and forum tester, care to elaborate on your motivation to play DA2 and post here?

Other then that though - yes, I'd rather be myself then a valuable asset to society. Fun thing is, in saying so, and defending my own right to be myself, I'm a much more valuable vanguard to society and to the (potential) good of pretty much every person on this globe, then any conformist could hope to be.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Irish Coffee wrote...

I just wanna say that reading this thread has made me wish the Qunari were real because I would join them in a heartbeat.

I'm pretty good at building stuff, I think I would make a fine smith in the Qun. I wouldn't have to worry about paying rent, struggling to make enough for food, worrying about whether I would lose my job. I love the idea that I am working to actually help my fellow man rather than working to help myself. My job and living is certain, thus I have to only worry about enjoying my life. Sten said he has fun, and that Qunari party and why wouldn't they? It's not like every waking hour is spent making things for the Qun, i'm sure they converse, eat together, drink together.

Dude seriously...i'm all about living under the word of the Qun because of this thread!

What makes you think you'd get to be a smith in Qunari society? The Qun will tell you what you will do in that society, I wonder how you'd feel if the Qun decided you'd be a great ditch digger? I can understand the appeal of working for a 'greater' goal and not having to worry about food, or affording things I'll admit that's a pretty good part of their society but what isn't good about the society is that they remove who you are from you. Your family, your beliefs, your opinions, and your name are taken away and all you are is the job that you do. That is what your life is, everything about your life is dictated by your job and your job is decided by book?

The reason I see the Qunari as a harmful society besided what I just listed is that they don't accept anything as true unless the Qun says it its even if evidence tells them that its wrong. Look at what Sten says to a femal Warden he says that a woman can't be a soilder that men are automatically better at that job than any woman would ever be.... even though a woman just stopped a Blght that doesn't matter. The Qun doesn't change a woman isn't a warrior... A male can't be smart enough to administrate anything but a sword no matter how smart he is he'd never be as smart as a woman. The inability to change when presented with evidence that the way they think is wrong makes them harmfull. They are unyeilding fanatics, and that isn't a good base for a society.

[Andronic0s]

In the real world a lot of people are pushed to work in jobs they dont like because they can't secure or are simply not good at the job they like, how is this different than the Qun version? sure the methodology differs but the result is the same

At least in the qunari society it would seem one is raised from childhood to be of a certain profession, which would make a lot of them fond of their future line of work if only through familiarity, in the same way back in the day families used to raise their children to become whatever the father was and most often than not the next generation chose to follow in the family business

[cglasgow]

Andronic0s wrote...

In the real world a lot of people are pushed to work in jobs they dont like because they can't secure or are simply not good at the job they like, how is this different than the Qun version?

In the real world, if what you're doing isn't working out for you, you're allowed to try and find something else?

[Cavegeta]

I think it would be great to play as Qunari if it were done as an origin ala DA:O. One of the things that I loved about the origins was that it kind of forced you to think about your character from a different perspective. I played as a human on my first playthrough but what was interesting to me was that my brother who played as an elf and his friend who played as a dwarf, all seemed to have a different perspective on our first and second playthroughs based on how we had seen everything the first time. If they did another game with origins I don't know why everyone wouldn't want a Qunari storyline.

[Irish Coffee]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Irish Coffee wrote...

I just wanna say that reading this thread has made me wish the Qunari were real because I would join them in a heartbeat.

I'm pretty good at building stuff, I think I would make a fine smith in the Qun. I wouldn't have to worry about paying rent, struggling to make enough for food, worrying about whether I would lose my job. I love the idea that I am working to actually help my fellow man rather than working to help myself. My job and living is certain, thus I have to only worry about enjoying my life. Sten said he has fun, and that Qunari party and why wouldn't they? It's not like every waking hour is spent making things for the Qun, i'm sure they converse, eat together, drink together.

Dude seriously...i'm all about living under the word of the Qun because of this thread!

What makes you think you'd get to be a smith in Qunari society? The Qun will tell you what you will do in that society, I wonder how you'd feel if the Qun decided you'd be a great ditch digger? I can understand the appeal of working for a 'greater' goal and not having to worry about food, or affording things I'll admit that's a pretty good part of their society but what isn't good about the society is that they remove who you are from you. Your family, your beliefs, your opinions, and your name are taken away and all you are is the job that you do. That is what your life is, everything about your life is dictated by your job and your job is decided by book?

Well then I dig a ditch, I've never considered my skills in that field, maybe i'm wicked awesome at it! Thanks Qun! I've worked ****ty jobs before in my life, I actually don't mind doing them because I understand the need for it. I also have a personal pension for making the best of a situation, i'm sure I would make grand friends with my fellow ditch diggers. We would have a blast digging them ditches for...water iregation I guess. Hey look at that! We are helping to water farms and provide food for our people, I feel so accomplished now!

The truth is some people are suited for a life like that, and infact enjoy a life like that. Who's to say that it's the wrong way to live?

[cglasgow]

Irish Coffee wrote...

The truth is some people are suited for a life like that, and infact enjoy a life like that. Who's to say that it's the wrong way to live?

Highlighted an important word in your post.

What you might want is not what everyone else wants.  So a system that allows people to pick what they want is better overall than a system that does all the picking for everyone.

Or: In the world I like, you can still have a hope of finding what you want, too.   But in the world you apparently like, I would have no hope of doing the same thing.   So, what, I should suffer because your tastes differ?   Can't we just stick with the 'live your own life like you want, as much as you can while still living in a reasonably stable society?' option, instead of the 'everybody conforms to this one absolute way of living' option?

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 05:49 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

cglasgow wrote...

Irish Coffee wrote...

The truth is some people are suited for a life like that, and infact enjoy a life like that. Who's to say that it's the wrong way to live?

Highlighted an important word in your post.

What you might want is not what everyone else wants.  So a system that allows people to pick what they want is better overall than a system that does all the picking for everyone.

Or: In the world I like, you can still have a hope of finding what you want, too.   But in the world you apparently like, I would have no hope of doing the same thing.   So, what, I should suffer because your tastes differ?   Can't we just stick with the 'live your own life like you want, as much as you can while still living in a reasonably stable society?' option, instead of the 'everybody conforms to this one absolute way of living' option?

Just because you want something, does not equate you being good at it. In our world where we let anyone become anything, we get a lot of incompetent fools in important posistions of society where they should never have been. With the Qun, those fools would have been put into their proper proffession, and would never have gotten the ambition of becoming a "leader" in the first place.
In the world we like, you wouldn't even have to hope for something better, you would already have what was best for you. So what would the point of dreaming for more be? You would already have all you could ask for. Unless ofcourse, you are so indoctrinated by our own consumerism that you always crave more, in which case the Qun would be living hell.

[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because you want something, does not equate you being good at it.

Nor does it equate to me being able to get it.  Dude, have you ever actually had to go job-hunting?  The only jobs that will hire people who can't show any qualifications or experience are the jobs that don't need any, and even those are scarce enough nowadays.

And yes, I am sure that any # of anecdotes are leaping to your mind right now where you've had to work with, or under, an idiot.  I have my own collection.  You know what?  One of the things I've learned as I've gotten older is that in the real world, you generally don't ever have the option of 'perfect', you just have to weigh one set of pros and cons vs. another.

In our world where we let anyone become anything, we get a lot of incompetent fools in important posistions of society where they should never have been.

And if the Qunari actually were perfect at picking which person went into which job, Tal-Vashoth would never exist.  Every single qunari who goes '**** this, I'm not doing it anymore' and heads for the tall timber is living proof that the tamassran are not always able to put people where they'll be happy and useful.

So, if they can't guarantee me satisfaction, why the hell should I give total control of my life over to them?

The only reason the qunari look better than any other society in this regard is because we live with our mistsakes, but they bury every single mistake they can.  Six feet down.

That's wonderful for keeping up appearances, but I'll stick with what we've got, thanks; putting up with the occasional incompetent is a pain in the ass, but it beats making 'I wish I had a different job' a death penalty offense.   Any system can look perfect when all dissent is suppressed by either being run out of society or else given an axe to the face... that doesn't mean it actually is.

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 07:51 .

[Vanaer]

Irish Coffee wrote...

I just wanna say that reading this thread has made me wish the Qunari were real because I would join them in a heartbeat.

I'm pretty good at building stuff, I think I would make a fine smith in the Qun. I wouldn't have to worry about paying rent, struggling to make enough for food, worrying about whether I would lose my job. I love the idea that I am working to actually help my fellow man rather than working to help myself. My job and living is certain, thus I have to only worry about enjoying my life. Sten said he has fun, and that Qunari party and why wouldn't they? It's not like every waking hour is spent making things for the Qun, i'm sure they converse, eat together, drink together.

Dude seriously...i'm all about living under the word of the Qun because of this thread!

If it worked. If it worked you'd be forced to do that which you do best. But let's say you're great at building stuff, but your true passion lies at gardening. How would you feel then? You would never be able to garden, as you only received a hammer to build. That's what you do. You do not get to make your own decisions. The Supreme build master decides, no discussion, and you must obey and build. Of course you would still be able to have fun, besides work, but how would that much differ from a free system in which such qualities usually get sorted 'automaticly'? Those that are great at building usually roll into building, as they can make money the most easily there, while still leaving the freedom of pursuing your passion for less coin.

In the end, with no personal gain incentives to get the dirty work done, the Qun must resort to either slavery or forced labour. Which they do, as they force non-Qun to work in labour camps. Such societies must always resort to such ways to get the worst jobs done. Would you still obey the Qun if you had to scrape the walls of the Fukushima I reactors? It is decided for you and you have no choice but to obey and die, or to revolt and die.

Qunari are just a deadly mix of Rousseau (Obeying to a law you prescribed yourself is freedom - albeit decoupled from democracy), Plato (Justice is when someone/something does what he/she/it is supposed to do - The baker being the baker, the ruler the ruler) and Hegelian vision on Das Ganze. 

Modifié par Vanaer, 24 mars 2011 - 08:15 .