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[cglasgow]

Vanaer wrote...

In the end, with no personal gain incentives to get the dirty work done, the Qun must resort to either slavery or forced labour. Which they do, as they force non-Qun to work in labour camps.

Fenris: "There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer."

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Just because you want something, does not equate you being good at it. In our world where we let anyone become anything, we get a lot of incompetent fools in important posistions of society where they should never have been. With the Qun, those fools would have been put into their proper proffession, and would never have gotten the ambition of becoming a "leader" in the first place.
In the world we like, you wouldn't even have to hope for something better, you would already have what was best for you. So what would the point of dreaming for more be? You would already have all you could ask for. Unless ofcourse, you are so indoctrinated by our own consumerism that you always crave more, in which case the Qun would be living hell.

What reason do you have to assume a position you fill out best will give you the most satisfaction? I hate sewing. I might be good at it, but I've never tried and never will. I might make the best seamstress in the entire history of mankind, but I would hate every single second I spent with thread and needle. How would that be a satisfying existence?

[Superposition]

Warning Long Post

JamesX wrote...

Developer wrote...

The Tamassrans raise all the children, give them their general education, and evaulate them. Qunari are officially assigned their roles when they are twelve years old. The Tamassrans have some tests, but nothing requiring a #2 pencil. They also have something of a head start on the process, since they are the ones who control the Qunari selective breeding program.

Qunari have been bred for specific roles for a very long time. Parentage isn't really the issue anymore: It's more like pedigree. If you're a soldier, then there have been lots and lots and lots of soldiers in your bloodline, to the extent that you were probably born with the capacity to march in formation. If you were bred to be a fisherman, you are probably drawn to water the way that Labrador Retrievers are compelled, as if by an unseen force, to jump into the swimming pools of the neighbors. But breeding doesn't mean you, specifically, are suited for the job. Maybe you're bred to be a soldier, but you turn out more intellectual -- the Tamassrans may stick you in the priesthood, researching weapons technology or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, or who knows what, depending on what roles need filled by someone with your specific traits.

I think the person who answered have no idea what selective breeding means.

Selective Breeding is you pick the subject with the most desired traits, and mate him to all the fertile receivers, and from those descendents, you pick again the ones with the most desired traits and do the same again.  Over and over and over and distill and distill.  It is what nature does but rushed and controlled by people.

What he is talking about is Soldiers marrying Soldiers and their children becomes soldiers - like medievl knights trace their heritage as knights back hundred of years and tens of generations sort of thing, but extended to a few thousand years instead.  Not Person A is seeded to 1000 women and their children with the best traits reproduce with person A again to get even more pronounced traits.

You make a valid point JamesX, however the developer implies that their mating strategy succeeds (or  has already succeeded ) in amplifying the desired traits. A direct comparison with humans is not totally right, because they are different species that inhabit a fictional world. ( For clarification : I mean their "gene" behavior might be completely different.)

Furthermore so far we have seen only a very small part of their armed forces and we do no have a clue what differences they have with the rest of their society. Additionally  ( according to my knowledge ) we do not know what the Qun states and how it is used by their "priesthood". This is a big caveat.

Now some thoughts :

• Let us assume that a quanari can inherit a trait that enables him to statistically outperfom other quanari that do not have/exhibit the same trait  on certain tasks which are essential for fullfilling his specifc role.
• Claim : 1 implies that their priesthood predicts with greater accuracy whether a certain member of their race can succeed on a given role than the non priest qunari.

So in a sense the freedom to choose your role reduces the effectiveness of the quanari society to some degree. Maybe the core of the Qun has originated from observable facts ( like the theory of evolution)...  There are so many unknown facts about the qunari.

Anyway my point is that our current knowldege of potical philosophy cannot be generilized effortesly to non-human species / sapient beings (especially in a fictional setting). In this particular case the shortcomings of the qunari society are decided solely by the writers, and their main purpose is to create an intresting narative.  An analogous situation occurs when discussing the possibility of human extinction by artificial intelligence using examples from the "Terminator" films or from the Mass Effect Series. ( I am curious to see how they will hadle the "Reapers" .)

The whole question  " Would you join the qunari and why ? "  cannot be answered directly because it has no clear meaning. However it can be interpeted in various ways.

• You = a player character in Thedas : From an RP prespective it is easy to create a character that would join the qun.
• If "Would you join the qunari and why ? "  is interpreted as  " Would you willingly join a "totalitarian/authoro" regime, whose ruling class may contain non-humans and one of it's (sub)goals is total dominance, and why ? " then it would be easier to distinquish the following two cases:

•  It's ruling class contains only humans :  We have historical examples and ...( let us say it ussually ends badly).
• It's ruling class contains non humans : Now the question becomes  too vague and we need to make specific assumption on how those non human agent behave, what goals do they have, e.t.c.

Another caveat is that the answer to this question may depent on enviromental factors. If you think that the bolded part and/or the enviromental factors are irrelevant then .....you have a certain belief ?




                                                                          

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...

• You = a player character in Thedas : From an RP prespective it is easy to create a character that would join the qun.  

I won't tell anyone what he or she has to roleplay, but actually - that'd be quite a task for me at last. But then, I also had considerable difficulties roleplaying Jedi that don't question their order at some point.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cglasgow wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because you want something, does not equate you being good at it.

Nor does it equate to me being able to get it.  Dude, have you ever actually had to go job-hunting?  The only jobs that will hire people who can't show any qualifications or experience are the jobs that don't need any, and even those are scarce enough nowadays.

And yes, I am sure that any # of anecdotes are leaping to your mind right now where you've had to work with, or under, an idiot.  I have my own collection.  You know what?  One of the things I've learned as I've gotten older is that in the real world, you generally don't ever have the option of 'perfect', you just have to weigh one set of pros and cons vs. another.

If you want something you can get it, given time. Hell, in some cases, if you want it bad enough, you can just take it. All of that is prevented by the Qun, as it gives you the job you will excell at. The Tamassrans have evaluated you for 12 years before they assign your duty, which is plenty of time to get a good sense of your skills, what you like and what you dislike. Out of all the information they've gathered, they pick a proffession best suited you. And the Qunari never claimed to be perfect. They strive to be, but as they are just mortal, they can never achieve it, but neither can any society, though they all strive to be perfect. So I fail to see how you can hold the Qunari at fault for not being perfect, when nothing is.

cglasgow wrote...

In our world where we let anyone become anything, we get a lot of incompetent fools in important posistions of society where they should never have been.

And if the Qunari actually were perfect at picking which person went into which job, Tal-Vashoth would never exist.  Every single qunari who goes '**** this, I'm not doing it anymore' and heads for the tall timber is living proof that the tamassran are not always able to put people where they'll be happy and useful.

So, if they can't guarantee me satisfaction, why the hell should I give total control of my life over to them?

The only reason the qunari look better than any other society in this regard is because we live with our mistsakes, but they bury every single mistake they can.  Six feet down.

That's wonderful for keeping up appearances, but I'll stick with what we've got, thanks; putting up with the occasional incompetent is a pain in the ass, but it beats making 'I wish I had a different job' a death penalty offense.   Any system can look perfect when all dissent is suppressed by either being run out of society or else given an axe to the face... that doesn't mean it actually is.

As I said, they never claimed to be perfect. I don't know where you are getting that from really. Of course there will always be made mistakes, that cannot be avoided, but the few mistakes does not outweigh the huge number of succeses. And if you were Qunari chances are you wouldn't ever "wish you had another job". Who knows, it may even be possible to apply for reevaluation by the Tamassrans, if you feel you aren't doing your best for the Qun.

Lithuasil wrote...
What reason do you have to assume a position you fill out best will give you the most satisfaction? I hate sewing. I might be good at it, but I've never tried and never will. I might make the best seamstress in the entire history of mankind, but I would hate every single second I spent with thread and needle. How would that be a satisfying existence?

Why on earth would the Tamassrans put you in a proffession you obviously hate? They would quickly find out about your hate of sewing, realize it would reduce your effectiveness in the field of sewing, and find a task better suited for you.
So to answer your question with aquestion: Why do you assume the Tamassrans would obviously torture their own subjects like that?

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why on earth would the Tamassrans put you in a proffession you obviously hate? They would quickly find out about your hate of sewing, realize it would reduce your effectiveness in the field of sewing, and find a task better suited for you.
So to answer your question with aquestion: Why do you assume the Tamassrans would obviously torture their own subjects like that?

What reason do you have to believe the Tamassrans give two shíts about what I like or dislike? Especially when all evidence we have is "You're muscular and tough, go be a soldier" and when said person happens to be the most peaceful, most pacifistic person in the world, tough luck for them.
And you still haven't dealt with the lingering question how the Tamassrans deal with the inevitable imbalance  between demand and ressources - what do they do when a village needs one priest, two soldiers and a seamstress, but the four children born to satisfy that demand are best suited to being an artist, a cook a builder and a gardener?

On a completely different note - am I the only one to smell a slight trace of irony from the combination of the beliefs you express here, and your signature? 

[tausra]

They don't have artists, qamek's are physical labor. Invalid question.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lithuasil wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why on earth would the Tamassrans put you in a proffession you obviously hate? They would quickly find out about your hate of sewing, realize it would reduce your effectiveness in the field of sewing, and find a task better suited for you.
So to answer your question with aquestion: Why do you assume the Tamassrans would obviously torture their own subjects like that?

What reason do you have to believe the Tamassrans give two shíts about what I like or dislike? Especially when all evidence we have is "You're muscular and tough, go be a soldier" and when said person happens to be the most peaceful, most pacifistic person in the world, tough luck for them.
And you still haven't dealt with the lingering question how the Tamassrans deal with the inevitable imbalance  between demand and ressources - what do they do when a village needs one priest, two soldiers and a seamstress, but the four children born to satisfy that demand are best suited to being an artist, a cook a builder and a gardener?

On a completely different note - am I the only one to smell a slight trace of irony from the combination of the beliefs you express here, and your signature? 

The Tamassrans probably don't care much for any one Qunari, what they do care about however, is the Qunari (plural), and they would realize that if you are doing less than 100% as a seamstress, that would then not be your ideal job. Likewise they wouldn't put a pacifist in the army. Just because he is big and strong does not make him a soldier. He could also be working in a quarry or farm, any job where physical strength is required would be suited for him. The Tamassrans would logically not just make a physical evaluation of you, but also psychological.
And the answer for your given question: They would send a priest, two soldiers and a seamstress from villages where they have those particulars in spare. If there are just not enough soldiers born one year, the Qunari must just make do with less. Or perhaps the Tamassrans initiate a particular breeding program which would make the next generation have an abbundance of soldiers.

That old signature is not really expressing my belief as such. It was just something someone once said and it sounded cool, hence signature worthy

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And the answer for your given question: They would send a priest, two soldiers and a seamstress from villages where they have those particulars in spare. If there are just not enough soldiers born one year, the Qunari must just make do with less. Or perhaps the Tamassrans initiate a particular breeding program which would make the next generation have an abbundance of soldiers.

That must be one efficient society, with about half of qunari society working as accountants to keep track of everything, and recruiting programs in case of say, an invasion, coming to full effect a mere 18-20 years after being initiated.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari know they will be the ones to initiate the war. They have probably already initiated the proper breeding programs to account for any casualties during the war with the rest of the world. And an entire pillar of their society is tasked with record keeping, and such. So yeah, they got that base covered.

[Lithuasil]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari know they will be the ones to initiate the war. They have probably already initiated the proper breeding programs to account for any casualties during the war with the rest of the world. And an entire pillar of their society is tasked with record keeping, and such. So yeah, they got that base covered.

Who do they know that? Especially now, that thanks to Anders, there's nukes in thedas? And how can such a society claim to be efficient, when their best possible reaction time makes lotr's Treemen appear swift and nimble minded in comparison?

[EmperorSahlertz]

They know becasue they have already set the actions in motion. And waht are you talking about their reaction time? If you are referring to the three years in Kirkwall, the Arishok did not intervene becasue it was not his task to do so. The Arishok was not there to do the job of the Viscount, only after the Viscount showed is incompetence in keeping order, did the Arishok decide enough was enough, and the Qunari's response was swift and brutal.
And what Anders did is hardly a nuke. It destroyed a building (perhaps parts of a district aswell), and had some cool special effect, but it is nothing more than what we already knew magic could do.

[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you want something you can get it, given time. Hell, in some cases, if you want it bad enough, you can just take it. All of that is prevented by the Qun, as it gives you the job you will excel at.

Just ignoring the part about Tal-Vashoth, are we?

It gives you the job they think you will excel at; they have no more guarantee of being right about it than you do.

The Tamassrans have evaluated you for 12 years before they assign your duty, which is plenty of time to get a good sense of your skills, what you like and what you dislike.

Those 'twelve years' in question are from birth to age 12, note.

And you know what?  Even in our messy horrible human system, you're generally not expected to have your life's career set in stone while still in grade school.  We generally give you , like, 18-20 years or so to make up your mind... and then we allow you to make it up again if it turns your first idea was no fun.

Seriously, who could have observed you at age 12 and figured out what you'd be best at?  What you were doing best with at that age?  Same thing that's your greatest aptitude now?   And is that also true for everyone around you, or just you?

Seriously.  You are giving the qunari the ability to watch grade-school children at work and know exactly what kind of people they're going to grow up into and what their best skills will be.   Dude, we can't do that in the real world, and we have modern psychology, aptitude tests, and computer-assisted motion analysis.   So I really doubt a bunch of medieval fantasy priests just using their eyeballs are going to even equal the 21st century's error rate, let alone improve on it.

Out of all the information they've gathered, they pick a profession best suited you. And the Qunari never claimed to be perfect.

Then they lose all right to make all my choices for me.

The only reason that would remotely make sense for giving up your free will is if the person you're giving it up for can guarantee -- not just promise, but guarantee -- that you'll make out way better on the equation.   If the people who want to control my life are as mortal and fallible as I am?   Then ahahahahhahaha, **** no.  If mistakes are going to be made either way, then I'll stick with my own mistakes, thank you.

They strive to be, but as they are just mortal, they can never achieve it, but neither can any society, though they all strive to be perfect. So I fail to see how you can hold the Qunari at fault for not being perfect, when nothing is.

*points up at his previous paragraph*  Kinda like that.

Also, there is a trope in fiction called the Omniscient Morality License, where actions that would normally be considered immoral for most people (such as, oh, running the totalitarian state) are still justified because they have enough foreknowledge to be in complete control of the outcome.   To quote TVTropes:

"Basically, they can do anything to the hero and still be considered one of the good guys, because they just know it will turn out okay."

But here's the thing.  You can't use the Omniscient Morality License defense unless you are indeed omniscient.   If you're as mortal as the rest of us?  Then you lose that justification.

To bring things back on point, your entire justification of the Qun is that it would do better at making everyone's life choices for them than those people themselves would.   That's pretty much the same thing as claiming that they never, ever **** up, dude (because, of course, the main criticism against letting people make their own choices is that they do sometimes **** up).  But that's not a claim anyone can back.

[Lithuasil]

DSerpa wrote...

The qunari come right out of Plato's Republic. That's a rare thing for a video game.

But as has been discussed several times now, that's not exactly a point in their favor :|

[blothulfur]

Just admit it the Qun makes you all horny, search your emotions you know this to be true.

[Lithuasil]

DSerpa wrote...

I didn't read through the first 20 pages. I'm a bad man.

I think it's a point in their favor, at least. It makes them interesting.

This thread isn't about why they're more interesting to butcher then darkspawn, it's about why anyone would want to join. And platos republic, a state the qunari are far from reaching, is not a place I'd want to live in.

[blothulfur]

So it's a thread about why you'd want to join then not anyone else. In which case discussion seems pointless.

[Lithuasil]

DSerpa wrote... 
Then you're a Tal'Vashoth. What's your point?

My point is still to find out, if those that defend the Qunari with crusader-like fervor and claim they'd join in an instant, are actually aware of the implications and consequences, or if there's some advantage beyond the obvious that I fail to see.

[KenKenpachi]

I'ld say it has to depend on your views. And I agree just as your good at something doesn't mean you like it. In fact that may turn some from it. But is it fair or right for the greater good for you to do something you like, and yet suck at it? Thankfully most people love what they are good at.

I'ld say I like it the same Reason I like Eastern Philosophy. I would enjoy having an orderly society, purpose, and duty. To be lead, and fallowed. But only as I'm pretty positive I would be a soldier. My sister is very westernized in her thought process, and we clash often and baddly. She always tells her son to be happy and do whatever he wants. And he's nothing more than a wretch lacking any self-discipline or direction.

To be far though, in her hard times she turned to sex, drugs, and friends. Only the Codes of Ninpo and Bushido, kept me from the same path.

As to the good aspects of such a movement as the Qunari, it allows true quality, based on merit. Is a fine tuned flawless machine that will operate as it see's fit. It has no debate or issues when things need to get done, and it keeps anarchy and social wellfare down. And they are not racist. The Elfs I don't think the Arishok had any other reason short of that they converted, Sten in DA:O even remarks on it in conversations with shale. Minus mages any and all are welcomed, what western society has even said that? We also seen how powerful Qunari mages are, they willingly fallow and allow what is done to them.

On the bad side, lack of freedom of expression and the like. Intolerant of lesser peoples, Which I don't judge the Arishok on what he did, as I might very well do the same. Lack of various other freedoms, and is highly centralized and structured.Some might even say its Oprsessive. Though Humans in a manner are a resource that can do mighty things when but to a task.

It comes down to if your selfless and duty bound. Or if your Selfish, and one who enjoys pleasure. I find pleasure in finishing what I set out to do, others do in music. Its all a matter of taste. Every movement has its good and bad, and yet everyone of them has had its fallowers.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 24 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

cglasgow wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you want something you can get it, given time. Hell, in some cases, if you want it bad enough, you can just take it. All of that is prevented by the Qun, as it gives you the job you will excel at.

Just ignoring the part about Tal-Vashoth, are we?

It gives you the job they think you will excel at; they have no more guarantee of being right about it than you do.

They give you the job they know you will excel at. The Tamassrans have generations of experience in the matter, they know all about wether or not you have the skills. Wether or not you have the psycological aptitude is another matter, which they probably also try to take into consideration during the evaluation. But sometimes something just can't be forseen, hence the Tal-Vasoth.

cglasgow wrote...

The Tamassrans have evaluated you for 12 years before they assign your duty, which is plenty of time to get a good sense of your skills, what you like and what you dislike.

Those 'twelve years' in question are from birth to age 12, note.

And you know what?  Even in our messy horrible human system, you're generally not expected to have your life's career set in stone while still in grade school.  We generally give you , like, 18-20 years or so to make up your mind... and then we allow you to make it up again if it turns your first idea was no fun.

Seriously, who could have observed you at age 12 and figured out what you'd be best at?  What you were doing best with at that age?  Same thing that's your greatest aptitude now?   And is that also true for everyone around you, or just you?

Seriously.  You are giving the qunari the ability to watch grade-school children at work and know exactly what kind of people they're going to grow up into and what their best skills will be.   Dude, we can't do that in the real world, and we have modern psychology, aptitude tests, and computer-assisted motion analysis.   So I really doubt a bunch of medieval fantasy priests just using their eyeballs are going to even equal the 21st century's error rate, let alone improve on it.

You can with some accuracy, and without any aid but your own observations, predict what kind of person a child will grow up to become. Granted you can't take into account any kind of personal/emotional disaster which might occur to hcange his personality later.
Age12 may not be the ideal age for humans to be evaluated, no. But then again, the Qun was not created with humans in mind. For all we know 12 years is half of a Qunari's lifetime, which would then have been plenty (even excessive) time to evaluate a person. Perhaps the Qunari just mature faster, and are adult already at age 6, we don't know. But it is a mistake to keep comparing Qunari with humans, and even trying to directly transfer the Qun unto our modern society.

cglasgow wrote...

Out of all the information they've gathered, they pick a profession best suited you. And the Qunari never claimed to be perfect.

Then they lose all right to make all my choices for me.

The only reason that would remotely make sense for giving up your free will is if the person you're giving it up for can guarantee -- not just promise, but guarantee -- that you'll make out way better on the equation.   If the people who want to control my life are as mortal and fallible as I am?   Then ahahahahhahaha, **** no.  If mistakes are going to be made either way, then I'll stick with my own mistakes, thank you.

You realize you life is already being controlled as it is now right? The way society is build up, you can't just magically get any job you want. You study, you graduate, you get the right grades and then you can get a certain type of job within a certain field. You can't just quit your job as a liontamer and get a job as a programmer. Society as we knows it, just puts all the blame on yourself.
And are you actually trying to say that we know better ourselves what is best for us? If anyhting humans have shown time and again, that it is simply not true. We are immeasurably self-destructive. Eating ourselves to death, drinking ourselves to death, beating eachother to death, shooting eachouther/ourselves to death, the list goes on and on. No, we do not know ourselves what is best for us, but it is a choice our own society forces on us, because it won't take the blame if anything goes wrong.
And again I must point out: Qunari have free will*. All they can't do, is decide their career, and raise their own children.

cglasgow wrote...

They strive to be, but as they are just mortal, they can never achieve it, but neither can any society, though they all strive to be perfect. So I fail to see how you can hold the Qunari at fault for not being perfect, when nothing is.

*points up at his previous paragraph*  Kinda like that.

Also, there is a trope in fiction called the Omniscient Morality License, where actions that would normally be considered immoral for most people (such as, oh, running the totalitarian state) are still justified because they have enough foreknowledge to be in complete control of the outcome.   To quote TVTropes:

"Basically, they can do anything to the hero and still be considered one of the good guys, because they just know it will turn out okay."

But here's the thing.  You can't use the Omniscient Morality License defense unless you are indeed omniscient.   If you're as mortal as the rest of us?  Then you lose that justification.

To bring things back on point, your entire justification of the Qun is that it would do better at making everyone's life choices for them than those people themselves would.   That's pretty much the same thing as claiming that they never, ever **** up, dude (because, of course, the main criticism against letting people make their own choices is that they do sometimes **** up).  But that's not a claim anyone can back.

I'm not saying they don't mess up. Even the Qunari themselves don't ever claim that. What the Qunari do claim is that if people were left to their own devices, there would be a whole lot more messing up, than if they had people decide for them.
And for the millionth time: The Qun does not make every decission for you. It does not tell you who to befriend or who to love. It does not tell you when to sleep or when to eat. It does not tell you when to smile and when to cry. It gives you a job and puts you on your path. That's it. That this path is about service to the Qun is another matter entirely.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[Lithuasil]

DSerpa wrote...

I wouldn't join the Qunari. I also don't live in Thedas. My point was that some people are clearly unhappy with the Qun and abandon it to live as Tal'Vashoth, so it's not as though it's unrealistically efficient.

I never claimed it to be efficient, others did.