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[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They give you the job they know you will excel at.  [...] But sometimes something just can't be forseen, hence the Tal-Vashoth.

So, they know in advance... except when they don't?

Point.  Completely Missing It.  You.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, you are missing it. They know exactly which jobs you will be good at. What they can have a hard time predicting, is which jobs you will be happy at. See the difference?

[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, you are missing it. They know exactly which jobs you will be good at. What they can have a hard time predicting, is which jobs you will be happy at.

So now you're admitting that the Qun doesn't give a damn whether or not I'm living in misery, just so long as I'm useful to it, if not myself?

Just a tad exploitative, wouldn't we agree?  Why the hell should I want to be used for someone else's purposes when there's nothing in it for me, not even job satisfaction?  Why should anyone?  More to the point, why should I be forced to do this?  When you volunteer to sacrifice, that's sacrifice.  When you are "volunteered" to sacrifice, that's exploitation.  If the 'greater good' wants to actually qualify as 'good', it should make as minimal use of the press-gang as it can, as opposed to making it sodding ubiquitous.

Bah.  Like we've said all along, its just slavery dressed up in pretty religious clothing.

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

cglasgow wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No, you are missing it. They know exactly which jobs you will be good at. What they can have a hard time predicting, is which jobs you will be happy at.

So now you're admitting that the Qun doesn't give a damn whether or not I'm living in misery, just so long as I'm useful to it, if not myself?

Just a tad exploitative, wouldn't we agree?  Why the hell should I want to be used for someone else's purposes when there's nothing in it for me, not even job satisfaction?  Why should anyone?  More to the point, why should I be forced to do this?  When you volunteer to sacrifice, that's sacrifice.  When you are "volunteered" to sacrifice, that's exploitation.  If the 'greater good' wants to actually qualify as 'good', it should make as minimal use of the press-gang as it can, as opposed to making it sodding ubiquitous.

Bah.  Like we've said all along, its just slavery dressed up in pretty religious clothing.

Have you even read anything I have written? I am admitting no such thing.
The Tamassrans would obviously realize, that if you absolutely hate blacksmithing, you would have a greatly reduced effectivity in that field, and thus would not assign you that job. While they may not care for you as an individual, they care about you doing a good job, which is why they strive to give you the job you will be best at (ie. also most content with).

[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Have you even read anything I have written? I am admitting no such thing.

Oh really?

They know exactly which jobs you will be good at. What they can have a
hard time predicting, is which jobs you will be happy at. See the
difference?

That's you.  This is you, right there, saying that the tamassran are going for 'what job you will do well', not 'what job you will be happy doing'.  Right here you're noting that 'what job you're best at' is not necessarily 'what job you are most content with'.

While they may not care for you as an individual, they care about you
doing a good job, which is why they strive to give you the job you will
be best at (ie. also most content with).

And now you're trying to have it exactly the other way around, just one post later.

Dishonest.  Intellectually dishonest.  Your arguments have no validity because they self-contradict and you refuse to admit it.

[Kaylis DX]

The Qun is serious business. *derp*

Honestly who cares? It's a video game. Not a video philosophy/intellectual debate. Play it and enjoy it for what it is.

Personally, I just like how diverse everyone is. The Dalish, who are all about tradition and family, the Qunari, who take life seriously and dedicate themselves to the greater good(for their people and not necessarily others), The Humans, who usually are either Christian like with Andraste or don't care at all, and the dwarves who value their ancestors and worship them for what they've given their kin.

So many varying and interesting takes on life in one game is why I think people take such an interest in the Qun and other social beliefs in this game series.

That and "BY THE ****** OF MY ANCESTORS" is hilariously fun to say. (Also the Qunari chicks are pretty hot lol)

[Hawgh]

They talk good smack. That's what I like about them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

cglasgow wrote...

They know exactly which jobs you will be good at. What they can have a
hard time predicting, is which jobs you will be happy at. See the
difference?

That's you.  This is you, right there, saying that the tamassran are going for 'what job you will do well', not 'what job you will be happy doing'.  Right here you're noting that 'what job you're best at' is not necessarily 'what job you are most content with'.

You know what I don't say in that post, even though you try your hardest making it sound like I do? I never once in that post claim that the Tamassrans care nothing for the happiness of their charges. What I am saying is that wether or not someone will be good at a job is the easy part, evaluating wether or not that someone will be happy is the hard part.
That is all I said in that quote. Not that they care nothing for the Qunaris' happiness. Nice try though.

cglasgow wrote...

While they may not care for you as an individual, they care about you
doing a good job, which is why they strive to give you the job you will
be best at (ie. also most content with).

And now you're trying to have it exactly the other way around, just one post later.

Dishonest.  Intellectually dishonest.  Your arguments have no validity because they self-contradict and you refuse to admit it.

In that quote my stance has not changed at all. "The Tamassrans are and will always try and give you the best job possible". Is all I have said, and that remains true. I have also said that happiness is a hard thing to predict, and thus sometimes the Tamassrans does not assign the ideal job.
Your attempts at slander is the only dishonesty in this case.

[PantheraOnca]

I also like how the tal-vashoth are just assumed to be right. every society has @#$holes, maybe the tal'vashoth would rebel from the qun no matter what role they were assigned.

maybe they have been assigned the jobs the are best at and like the most and still decided they wanted to rebel.

cglas, i think what emperorS is saying is that your happiness/contentedness with a job is part of the process determining what you are best suited to do. this does not directly contradict them deciding where you will be best placed. some people (i don't recall if this includes you) think that your roll is determined from/at birth. I do not recall where i got the idea from but I always understood it being determined in or around adolescence.

[PsychoBlonde]

Cuthlan wrote...

I think the Qun is awful.

But I have respect for their blunt way of handling things.

I agree with this in a sense.  The Qunari as individuals do have numerous manifold virtues, and they are up-front and uncompromising about them.  They are honest, serious, forthright, proud, determined, hardworking; they don't whine or tolerate whining.  There's a lot to admire there.  Yet their philosophy *as a whole* is horrific beyond belief.  Still, individual parts of their philosophy are beneficial--they have to be, or they would have self-destructed long ago.  You can see this same principle at work in real life.  There is *no such thing* as a wholly and obviously evil and invalid belief system, because it wouldn't exist, people would take one look at it and say "that's insane" and that'd be the end of it.  Every belief system has to have *something* to offer people, even if it's only a sense of psychological permission to wallow in their own evil.

It starts off with offering you something you want--in the case of the Qunari, this would be certainty.  Everybody wants to know the answers to life's big questions, it is built in at base level because knowledge is how we deal with the world.  When people are young, they (mostly) just take ready-made whatever answers the adults in their vicinity use.  (You have no choice but to do this, really, you aren't yet capable of doing it for yourself any more than you're capable of supporting yourself monetarily.)  They may not even be consciously aware that there are big fundamental questions being answered.  To a young child, the things people say are often like received religion.  It makes me think that some peoples' tendency to lie wildly and obviously to their young is perhaps the kindest thing they ever do for their children.  Anyway, I digress.

After they offer you that thing you want, though, they start telling you all these things you HAVE to do in order to get it.  You HAVE to submit to the Qun.  You HAVE to subsume your personal will to the collective.  You HAVE to see that mages are collared.  You HAVE to do X, Y, and Z a certain way.  Otherwise all will be chaos.  And you don't want chaos, do you?  You want certainty, right?  WELL PAY FOR IT.

If a person buys the idea that all these restrictions really are *necessary*, they're screwed.  The Qun owns them.  
It is possible to like the individual Qunari for their virtues without condoning their belief system, but you simply must be aware of what the trick is and not start conflating the virtues possessed by individuals with the belief system, as if one is the *necessary* perquisite of the other.

[Punahedan]

^ Agreed with PsychoBlonde here.

It's very difficult for a lot of western people, who are so entrenched in the "Individualism, postmodernism, woohoo!" state of mind, to see what many, many ancient philosophers saw. Firstly, we naturally gravitate towards forming communities. We're social beings, even if we're introverted. Once you have a community, the community is like cells in a single body. Thus, there are philosophies and societies even in our world that follow the idea that each cell has a function, but it is to benefit the whole. What benefits the whole benefits the individual, too.

Like any one body, the society can and does get sick. Especially if there is very little change, it may stagnate. But it has its benefits. It may be hard for us to see it, but if you're a father or a mother, for example, you'll give up a lot so that the family can be safe and everyone can benefit. In this sort of society, the family is just bigger.

As PB said, there are flaws. But they're interesting, socially-charged flaws. And so are the benefits.

I also like the boldness of even including such a society in a game. It's instinct to rush out and say "RAH RAH DEMOCRACY!" and plug that into everything, but democracy is flawed, too. Everything is flawed, everything has benefits. The world becomes so much more robust when you have a wide range of societies. It can't be just monarchies. And the sheer devotion qunari have to the Qun is played straight, it's not used in a back-handed fashion to try and subvert it. For some people, this system offers an answer and a purpose.

[cglasgow]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You know what I don't say in that post, even though you try your hardest making it sound like I do? I never once in that post claim that the Tamassrans care nothing for the happiness of their charges.

No, you're still trying to have it both ways.

If "job you're happiest at" != "job you do best", and the tamassrans select for "job you do best" then they are by definition not selecting for "job you're happiest at".

You can only pick two things at once, all of the time and every time, if they're the same thing.  Otherwise, you run into a situation where at least some of the time, you can only pick one or the other.  Life is choices; each choice means you've chosen to pass something by in favor of getting something else.

The Qun does not care about what you want to do, only what it thinks you're best useful for.  If it so happens that the job you can do best is also the job you like the best, then you're lucky.

But if not?  The Qun will not hesitate to slot you into where it thinks you belong, and if that doesn't agree with you, then you're screwed.  The Qun will not care.  You can go Tal-Vashoth or you can suck it up, those are the only two choices you are allowed.  The Arishok says this flat-out; the only choice under the Qun is to accept your chosen role or to deny it.  You have no say in what that chosen role will be, and the people picking it for you will not care about your happiness, only about your efficiency.

Remember, this is the same culture that uses a drug (qamek) to turn people into mindless laborers, when they need some purely mindless labor done and the people they want to do it do not agree with the Qun for putting them there.  That right there tells you that if it comes to a conflict between your satisfaction and the Qun's demands, your satisfaction is of zero concern to the Qun at all.   The Qun will literally burn out your brain if they don't think you need it.

(And, of course, all this is assuming that the Qun actually does know what job you're best suited for, which is absurd; the tamassrans can't tell the future any more than I can.  You're literally claiming that a bunch of guys who have just invented gunpowder somehow have more advanced psychological profiling techniques than the 21st century.  Our best vocational counselors or psychologists still can't look at a group of 12-year-olds and select optimum careers for them all; why the hell would anyone believe that the tamassrans can?  Hell, we know at least one category where the tamassrans are picking purely on superstition and prejudice rather than actual knowledge; gender roles.) 

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 08:19 .

[PsychoBlonde]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Your attempts at slander is the only dishonesty in this case.

Relax, you two.  It's actually a tad more complex than either of you understand, because there's a psychological element involved.  Qunari raised in the Qun for the most part very likely do not have the mental equipment to be "unhappy" in their assigned role.  (Remember where Sister Petrice says "even their rebels conform"?)  The Tal'Vashoth probably aren't unhappy in their assigned role in the way we would think.  They don't just decide "I hate being a soldier.  I want to be a merchant."  Instead, what probably happens is that something they're "required" to do as *part* of their "role" winds up conflicting with their mental assumptions about what *ought* to be part of their role.  Such as, for example, being required to live in a human city for years on end and look for a stupid book that some stupid human stole. It's demeaning.  So some of them cracked and became Tal'Vashoth.  (The Arishok kind of cracked, too, but since he was the one giving the orders he didn't become Tal'Vashoth as a result.  Well, that and you probably killed him shortly afterward.)

Maraas (the Tal'Vashoth who warns you about the other Tal'Vashoth) is the most exceptional Qunari you meet in the game--the only one with the twisted and corrupt remnants of individual thought, and not much of it at that.  He still accepts that, by the Qun, he's even worse than the other Tal'Vashoth.  He thinks of himself as a monster, as "nothing", a walking corpse of sorts, even.  Yet in his sad way he was willing to be evil rather than be wrong.  Some tiny part of him still clung to the idea that he was capable of evaluating things as right or wrong by his own judgment, not according to the Qun.

This is an exceptional accomplishment given the way Qunari are raised.  Heck, it would be an exceptional accomplishment for many modern *humans*, and many accept just the sort of horrible mental compromise Maraas did, instead of questioning their belief system, they just decide to be evil.  (I had a Catholic friend who divorced her first husband, and on being asked how she, as a Catholic, could condone getting a divorce, she just shrugged and said "I'm a bad Catholic".  Not "I think refusing people divorce is incorrect", no, "I'm a bad Catholic".)

For most Qunari, the whole assigning them to jobs thing is not a problem, because by the time they're old enough to be put in a role, their ability to judge or WANT to judge for themselves is wrecked, demolished, ruined.  Being given a place comes as a huge relief.  Being suddenly *denied* that place is the horror to them.  (Witness Sten's behavior in Origins, as well as the ENORMOUS friendship boost you can get with him by, basically, saying "you can stay with us" and giving him some sort of role to fit himself into.  It's the largest single boost you can get with him aside from giving him back his sword, IIRC.)  Their caste system is not a fundamental issue--it's a secondary result of the way their philosophy operates, and for the most part being given this job or that job is not going to push Qunari into becoming Tal'Vashoth.  That probably happens (if it ever does) when they're a bit older and life starts to conflict with their expectations rather more severely.

[PsychoBlonde]

cglasgow wrote...

No, you're still trying to have it both ways.

If "job you're happiest at" != "job you do best", and the tamassrans select for "job you do best" then they are by definition not selecting for "job you're happiest at".

It is not warranted to assume that the job you do best is != to job you're happiest at, though.  In fact, there's rather a lot of evidence out there that people are happiest doing what they do well and vice versa--and we never learn to do well the things we don't enjoy.

We don't start out in life with a bunch of unknown mystical preferences.  We form them as we go along based on what we are successful at.  If the Qunari actually are as egalitarian as they pass themselves off as (doubtful, but we'll go with that assumption), there's no pressure for young people to try to do things that they really dislike anyway.  You don't have parents sitting around trying to live vicariously through their children's success.  You don't have higher-status or higher-paying jobs steering people to try and do things they're not suited to.  The only real pressure seems to be that male/female thing they have.  So there's (mostly) nothing to stop people from falling naturally into the pursuits they actually enjoy.

[cglasgow]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

It is not warranted to assume that the job you do best is != to job you're happiest at, though.

I am not assuming that.

I am assuming that in any case where 'best' conflicts with 'happiest at', the tamassran will rule in favor of 'best'.  In fact, they won't even see it as a case of ruling 'in favor of'... 'happiest at' won't even be an alternative they're considering, their sole concern is for what will work out best for the Qun.   The satisfaction of the individual is of total irrelevance to them.  The only way that 'best' will also happen to line up with 'happiest' is by pure chance, or because of what's discussed in the next paragraph.

And as you pointed out, the only reason its worked this long is that the Qun also brainwashes them to not really be able to judge on their own whether or not they are happy... and any system that requires selectively destroying parts of my psyche in order to work is a system I'm going to look verrrry askance at.

Modifié par cglasgow, 24 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Oh, goodness, I'm not recommending it! I think the Qun is HORRIBLE, that it does terrible violence to human nature and can ultimately result in nothing but ruin and death. I'm just saying that you somewhat misapprehend how it *seems* to work to the people who are born under it, so you're imagining conflicts that the Qunari probably don't have, or if they do, to a much lesser extent than you'd likely expect.

[OldMan91]

The Qun is always going to seem horrifying to any individualist or objectivist. To them it is a collectivist nightmare. Concepts such as rationalism and self-interest aren't prevalent in Qunari society, from what little we know at least. It should also be noted that we assume that the Arishok or Sten are telling the truth about how well their system works, or perhaps they don't have the whole picture and can only understand their philosophy from the point of view of their roles.

Ultimately this is about what you value more: the welfare of society or your own? Then again you may believe that there is a third option, one where the individual and the collective both have rights and obligations. It is a system which nowadays we aspire to, but haven't gotten quite there yet.

[Teahouse Fox]

I find the Qunari fascinating.They adhere to a strict code of honesty and honor and even if I wouldn't want to live there, I can find them of great interest - even if they are not always forthright. I can respect that they have a way of life different than that offered by the Tevinters, Dalish, Orlais or Ferelden. 

But there are plusses and minuses to each of these societies. The way the elves are treated everywhere except the Qun is abhorrent. The way magicians are treated everywhere except Tevinter and the Dalish is horrific. Tevinter's sanctioned slavery...Orlais and the class based abuses of their nobility and chevaliers on the lower classes. Fereldan is as about as moderate as you get.

The Qunari are not that far removed from the Chantry, except the Qunari treat their mages slightly worse. Nothing like getting your lips sewn together to put things into perspective.

Do what task you have been given to do. You may not question it. That's the Chantry and the Qun.  With the Qun, at least you can leave and live in exile. With the Chantry, if you are a mage and leave, you will be hunted, just like a Tevinter slave. In the Chantry if you are not treated as chattel to be abused, tortured and punished for what you might potentially do, you are simply robbed from your family, or perhaps religious hide bound attitudes have caused your parents to turn you in like a fugitive before you hit puberty, or are even out of short pants.

The chantry is evil without the horns and with better PR. OK for you if you are a Templar, sister or brother. Maker help you if you are a mage. You will be told your whole life how much you suck and must be punished and why you will never be free.  If some country does something we don't like, we'll get our Qun-like Crusade... uhmm. . errr.....  Exalted March on and fix that for ya.

Make no mistake, I think Ferelden needs to batten down the hatches in the event of either the Chantry OR the Qunari getting their religious fueled wars going.  But I agree that the Chantry was cast as the heavy in DA2 - they didn't trust the Qunari and created a self fulfilling prophesy by antagonizing them as they did.

[Annarl]

cglasgow wrote...

Actually, the devs do in fact say that the qunari do selective breeding.

That was new to me.  I missed that information.  Thank you for the link.

[nicodeemus327]

I just want to say thumbs up to PsychoBlonde for some really well written posts. I enjoy reading them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Oh, goodness, I'm not recommending it! I think the Qun is HORRIBLE, that it does terrible violence to human nature and can ultimately result in nothing but ruin and death.

Remains to be seen if the Qunari share the same nature as humans. All codexes (written by the people who met them) seem to mention that the Qunari are eerily quiet and calm. Almost all Qunari we see display the same kind of attitude (even Tal Vashoth). The only exception is Sten's friends in the Fade section in Origins. 

If the Qunari have a different psychology and / or "nature", the Qun could be the best kind of system for them. 
Of course it is also possible that the Qunari acquired these mannerism after the Qun. Or very likely, it's a mix of both (ideologies/ religions / philosophies usually end up reflecting an already pre-existing set of conditions / trends one way or the other, while also providing something new).

We still know very little about the Qun and the Qunari as a race. So I don't feel I am qualified enough to provide more insight on their psyche. 

But one is problem is that even if the Qun is perfect or very suited to Qunari psychology / nature, they believe it to be a universal truth applicable to everyone. Of course humans, even so called "enlightened humanists", more often than not end up falling in the same trap and completely dismiss everything they don't find as self-evident.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Remains to be seen if the Qunari share the same nature as humans. All codexes (written by the people who met them) seem to mention that the Qunari are eerily quiet and calm. Almost all Qunari we see display the same kind of attitude (even Tal Vashoth). The only exception is Sten's friends in the Fade section in Origins.

I think we're forgetting the Arishok, who was a veneer of calm over this giant, corked-up bottle of rage and disgust.  And eventually the cork popped out.

It seems to be more a cultural thing than an innate brain chemistry thing, I think.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Remains to be seen if the Qunari share the same nature as humans. All codexes (written by the people who met them) seem to mention that the Qunari are eerily quiet and calm. Almost all Qunari we see display the same kind of attitude (even Tal Vashoth). The only exception is Sten's friends in the Fade section in Origins.

I think we're forgetting the Arishok, who was a veneer of calm over this giant, corked-up bottle of rage and disgust.  And eventually the cork popped out.

It seems to be more a cultural thing than an innate brain chemistry thing, I think.

By calm, I didn't mean peaceful and full of nothing but satisfaction. Obviously, we see him losing his patience (and after quite a bit). But even then, he was not as "explosive" for the lack of a better word as a human might have been. At least mannerism wise. Even in his anger in the end, he didn't use his explosives and gas against Kirkwall.  

But yea, it could be cultural and acquired. Could also be due to their environment, whatever that happens to be in their original homeland. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even in his anger in the end, he didn't use his explosives and gas against Kirkwall.

Wasn't his mission objective.  He intended to conquer Kirkwall and bring it under the Qun, not destroy it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even in his anger in the end, he didn't use his explosives and gas against Kirkwall.

Wasn't his mission objective.  He intended to conquer Kirkwall and bring it under the Qun, not destroy it.

We don't know that. He is perfectly content with the tome and just leaves when he gets it.  Maybe conquering Kirkwall was a secondary objective, but that would mean that he expects the Qunari to send reinforcements to secure it. Strategically speaking it was unfeasible and useless to conquer Kirkwall. Which leads me to believe that he wanted to use the hostages primarily as a pressure tool to get the tome back.

Furthermore, he could have always used the gas. And can still use the explosives without destroying Kirkwall, in a limited fashion.