647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

We don't know that.

We do know that because he says that's exactly what he's doing.  If he's got to be stuck in Kirkwall while he's looking for the relic, then he will no longer put up with its corruption and 'insanity', but instead 'make them see' the Qun.

Then Isabela returns with the relic and the whole point is suddenly moot. 

If you have Fenris in the party when you approach the Viscount's palace during the end of act 2, he'll mention that the reason the nobles were all dragged there is to be faced with the demand to convert to the Qun or be put to the sword. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ah. Well that was weird move. Unless the Arishok was certain that reinforcements were coming and that the Qunari were ready to fight a big war again. And were willing and able to keep supplying Kirkwall to secure their hold. Unless he was sure that was the case, than this was not a smart move at all.

The Qunari should really try to invest in diplomacy more. Sending the Arishok in the first place was a bad idea, even if I admire the fact that he is subject to the law like everyone else.

[SamFlagg]

Hawkeyed Cai Li wrote...

^ Agreed with PsychoBlonde here.

It's very difficult for a lot of western people, who are so entrenched in the "Individualism, postmodernism, woohoo!" state of mind, to see what many, many ancient philosophers saw. Firstly, we naturally gravitate towards forming communities. We're social beings, even if we're introverted. Once you have a community, the community is like cells in a single body. Thus, there are philosophies and societies even in our world that follow the idea that each cell has a function, but it is to benefit the whole. What benefits the whole benefits the individual, too.

I also like the boldness of even including such a society in a game. It's instinct to rush out and say "RAH RAH DEMOCRACY!" and plug that into everything, but democracy is flawed, too. Everything is flawed, everything has benefits. The world becomes so much more robust when you have a wide range of societies. It can't be just monarchies. And the sheer devotion qunari have to the Qun is played straight, it's not used in a back-handed fashion to try and subvert it. For some people, this system offers an answer and a purpose.

I'd also point out that Freedom and Democracy are two concepts that in Western Culture have been combined into one whole despite the fact that there can be fairly severe conflicts between the two of them.  (Mostly because when both of them are taken as absolutes they are incompatible)

[baddogkelevra]

Because the Arishok is the only antagonist who is a reasonable rival, and someone with whom we could have an intelligent discussion. Every other villain is just certifiably insane.

[Lethys1]

It has to do with the fact that the Qunari are literally fundamentally different than humans, and don't experience what we refer to as "human nature," or the far worse "dwarven nature."

[Monsteroids]

Qun is good for those with a poor sense of self, needy, with an almost guilty sense of duty that's conditioned into them from birth with the aloof and cold manner of the people.

Qun is quite Confucian in nature, which both impresses me and disgusts me. It's one of those things where I'd love to be on top of or not involved at all. Qunari are blunt, because they have simple processes and shallow emotions. They submit as an tool to the ghost in their culture, their machine rather, (culture has 'love') and exemplify how robotic all living things really are. Confucius knew how to make one of the best human machines. It still has no better purpose than an individual has, survival.

Nobody has to deal with how insignificant they are when they're a single-minded tool.


Anyways, I don't like Qunari at all, as you can see. I like to be able to appreciate the finest beauties in this world, the ones found in chaos and suffrage. Wanting to violently suppress the very essence of life is a no-go in my personal book.


tl;dr: I'm an annoying freedom-lover.

Modifié par Monsteroids, 25 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[PantheraOnca]

Monsteroids wrote...
Qunari are blunt, because they have simple processes and shallow emotions.

where do you get this from? If you talk to the arishok about the saarebas who offed himself you get a rather non-simple explaination about the arishok's (and therefore i assume the quanri in general in this instance) thoughts on their mages.

They submit as an tool to the ghost in their culture, their machine rather, (culture has 'love') and exemplify how robotic all living things really are.

what. why must culture have love?

[Yazour II]

The Qun is not as simple as "convert or die". They don't have a problem with freedoms of Kirkwall. They only have a problem with the consequences of badly managed freedom. If the city was well governed with a strong sense of Justice they probably wouldn't have a problem with it.

If you lived in a city that was festering with injustice and you had the power to do something about it, wouldn't it be wrong not to? Arishok's mistake was to react in an extremest way.

I am surprised that people include the Chantry in discussions about the Qun. They are pretty much perpendicular ideologies. One is a faith system the other is a life philosophy. The only area where they cover the same ground is in their sense of justice, and they in fact agree. There is nothing stopping a Qunari believing in The Maker. As with everything, it is only the extremists that feel threatened and need to react.

Modifié par Yazour II, 26 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[Astranagant]

Lithuasil wrote...

Bondkakan wrote...


I was just saying that the appeal of the The Chantry to me is on the same level as the Qun is to you.

With the decisive difference, that the chantry tolerates different levels of faith, where the Qunari have that whole "convert or kill" thing going on.

Which is why Qunari society is vastly more just than Andrastian society.

For people who live in the real first world in comfort and safety the Qun sounds oppressive, but to any medieval peasant/serf/slave, the Qun offers so much more than the abuse of a petty nobleman who owns you and the land you break your back tilling along with all the food you produce.

Basically, the only people who stand to lose in the Qun are the rich and the powerful. Petty nobles who parasitize the masses of commoners beneath them.

Yazour II wrote...

The Qun is not as simple as "convert or die". They don't have a problem with freedoms of Kirkwall. They only have a problem with the consequences of badly managed freedom. If the city was well governed with a strong sense of Justice they probably wouldn't have a problem with it.

If you lived in a city that was festering with injustice and you had the power to do something about it, wouldn't it be wrong not to? Arishok's mistake was to react in an extremest way.

I am surprised that people include the Chantry in discussions about the Qun. They are pretty much perpendicular ideologies. One is a faith system the other is a life philosophy. The only area where they cover the same ground is in their sense of justice, and they in fact agree. There is nothing stopping a Qunari believing in The Maker. As with everything, it is only the extremists that feel threatened and need to react.

On more than one occasion in DAO, Sten refers to the Chantry as lies. Which isn't a bad thing, because the Qunari are the closest thing to scientifically inquisitive civilization in Thedas, which makes them number one in my book.

Magic is just a crutch that prevents people from pursuing true understanding of the world, after all.

Modifié par Astranagant, 26 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[ShrinkingFish]

To the OP:

I would make the effort to explain if I thought my words would be heard. However I do not intend to waste them on deaf ears.

Clearly you already know everything already so there is no point in trying to poor any additional information into that noggin. It would just overflow and run down your face and make such a mess!

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[Weltenschlange]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

To the OP:

I would make the effort to explain if I thought my words would be heard. However I do not intend to waste them on deaf ears.

Clearly you already know everything already so there is no point in trying to poor any additional information into that noggin. It would just overflow and run down your face and make such a mess!

Wow. You are quite rude.

And your post contributed nothing to the ongoing discussion in this thread.

Why don't you enlighten all of us with your thoughts on the subject?

Thank you.

[PantheraOnca]

Astranagant wrote...



Magic is just a crutch that prevents people from pursuing true understanding of the world, after all.

while that statement has merit in our world, it is patently false in thedas. The fade is part of their world. Claiming that interacting with it prevents understanding the world is akin to saying that seafaring is a crutch and prevents understanding in the real world.

It in fact opens up new lines of inquiry and experimentation to further understanding.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Astranagant wrote...
Which isn't a bad thing, because the Qunari are the closest thing to scientifically inquisitive civilization in Thedas, which makes them number one in my book.

There is a subtle difference between technology and science. One civilization can produce a lot of advanced tech, but can still lack the scientific method. Science afterall is a method.

That said, I agree that the Qunari seem to be the most advanced civilization in Thedas. Gunpowder implies a knowledge, at least practical, of chemistry. They know of optics.  I am pretty sure they have other tech which I'd love to see, preferrably non-military like agricultural, urban...etc. But most of our own technology derives from military tech, so I wouldn't mind if the same applies to the Qunari.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That said, I agree that the Qunari seem to be the most advanced civilization in Thedas. Gunpowder implies a knowledge, at least practical, of chemistry. They know of optics.  I am pretty sure they have other tech which I'd love to see, preferrably non-military like agricultural, urban...etc. But most of our own technology derives from military tech, so I wouldn't mind if the same applies to the Qunari.

Considering how Qunari see all three aspects as equal, I'd be surprised if there weren't at least as many scientists working for the betterment artisans as the soldiers. They'd probably be part of the artisans though.

As a sidenote, they are one of the few workgroups that aren't mono-gendered.

Then again, discoveries may be made from the workers themselves, like a blacksmith inventing steel etc. Though this seems less likely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the arigena (craftsman), are the ones who are specialized in tech research. They are supposed to represent the mind of the Qunari polity.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the arigena (craftsman), are the ones who are specialized in tech research. They are supposed to represent the mind of the Qunari polity.

The arigena is the leader though. Kind of like saying that the Arishok are the ones doing military things. They are anything between farmers, merchants and physicists, and thus I choose artisan as a collection name.

On a sidenote, being Arigena must be the most stressful position of the Ari.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh right. Yea I mean the group he is representing.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Oh right. Yea I mean the group he is representing.

The Arigena is always a she. I'll stop nitpicking now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I thought it could be either, according to the wiki. It could be wrong however. I do remember Sten saying that women running businesses is fitting. Probably because women are better multi-taskers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mars 2011 - 04:51 .

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I thought it could be either, according to the wiki. It could be wrong however. I do remember Sten saying that women running businesses is fitting. Probably because women are better multi-taskers.

Nah, that is the Ariqun. The others are based on gender. Females are thought to be the best at organizing stuff.

Mary Kirby wrote...

The Antaam is the army. The Beresaad was a specific division in the army. The Arishok is the highest ranking general, and part of the triumvirate that runs the Qunari.<br />
<br />
The Arigena is always female. The Ariqun can be either male or female.

Link.

[KnightofPhoenix]

But wasn't the priesthood supposed to be exclusively female?

[Herr Uhl]

Apparently not, there may be sections of it that we haven't heard of yet. There are scant male artisans too, as well as that there are some females working in the military by taking care of supplies and such.

[Jman5]

I feel like the Qunari are not necesarily anti-thinking. It's just to them the answers various moral questions are clear as day.

It would be like if I asked you why an apple falls to the ground if you drop it. You would say without hesitation: Gravity. If someone then came along and started proposing ridiculous reasons like the apple was sleepy, you would be confused.

It's the same concept except that instead of scientific truths the Qunari seem to have moral truths.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Qun is socialism that actually worked out quite well. Thing is, in the Qun you're assigned a role and not allowed to be just a parasite, a hobo, a loan shark etc. All individuals with filthy, mercantile, capitalistic views eventually run off to become Tal-Vashoth.
And don't confuse it with slavery/dictatorship. Qunari don't enforce everything on their kind, they just assign the role individual is best suited for. It's not a bad thing, really.

Think of it - when Qunari see beggars, thieves, loiters, raiders and other such filth it's horrid and astonishing to them that there can be a society, which abandons individual completely, where it's ok when a noble feast all day and don't produce anything while other people's lives are wasted. There are no unemployed people in the Qun, you see. No beggars. Think of dwarven society - that's your worst possible thing, with castless, denied any chance to actually become someone.
Convert all Thedas to the Qun? Yes please.

[The Baconer]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
 Qunari don't enforce everything on their kind, they just assign the role individual is best suited for. It's not a bad thing, really.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Saarebas

oh ok.