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[Lord Gremlin]

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
 Qunari don't enforce everything on their kind, they just assign the role individual is best suited for. It's not a bad thing, really.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Saarebas

oh ok.

Look, mages always can be possessed. The only role a mage can reliably perform is that of mind-controlled tool. Nothing else is reliable.

There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

[RazorrX]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
 Qunari don't enforce everything on their kind, they just assign the role individual is best suited for. It's not a bad thing, really.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Saarebas

oh ok.

Look, mages always can be possessed. The only role a mage can reliably perform is that of mind-controlled tool. Nothing else is reliable.

There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

There is no proof of that. Also it is quite possible that ALL Serebas use blood magic, as I was given a blood magic trinket from one of them and pulled other blood magic items from the bodies of others.

[OldMan91]

The Qun is socialism that actually worked out quite well. Thing is, in the Qun you're assigned a role and not allowed to be just a parasite, a hobo, a loan shark etc. All individuals with filthy, mercantile, capitalistic views eventually run off to become Tal-Vashoth.

No, it is not socialism. A caste system like the Qun is completely contrary to any socialist principles.

[ZombiePowered]

OldMan91 wrote...

The Qun is socialism that actually worked out quite well. Thing is, in the Qun you're assigned a role and not allowed to be just a parasite, a hobo, a loan shark etc. All individuals with filthy, mercantile, capitalistic views eventually run off to become Tal-Vashoth.

No, it is not socialism. A caste system like the Qun is completely contrary to any socialist principles.

Yeah, someone earlier said it was more Confucian, which is true in that there is a clearly ordered heirarchy. I don't know how the overall running of the Qunari state is done, i.e. what the formal political structure is, but it is nothing like socialism. My guess is that it's done through a ruling council consisting of the three top leaders from each branch, but there may be information out there contradicting me.

[The Baconer]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

http://dragonage.wik...man_of_Saarebas

oh ok.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Baconer wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

http://dragonage.wik...man_of_Saarebas

oh ok.

Yes, my mistake (threw that trinket away when I got Cold Blooded). Still, they are controlled and don't turn into abominations.

[PantheraOnca]

OldMan91 wrote...

The Qun is socialism that actually worked out quite well. Thing is, in the Qun you're assigned a role and not allowed to be just a parasite, a hobo, a loan shark etc. All individuals with filthy, mercantile, capitalistic views eventually run off to become Tal-Vashoth.

No, it is not socialism. A caste system like the Qun is completely contrary to any socialist principles.

castedness and socialism arent mutually exclusive.

if the property and other resources are distributed among the populace and not owned by the few that could be considered socialist. the caste system isn't a ranking, but a functionality differentiation. all 3 castes have an equal say in the triumvirate (as far as we know).

[cglasgow]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Look, mages always can be possessed. The only role a mage can reliably perform is that of mind-controlled tool. Nothing else is reliable.

Congratulations, even Warhammer 40k doesn't take it that far.  You just came up with something even more inhumane than the Imperium of Man, and they don't turn unsatisfactory psykers into Tranquil, they turn them into food.

Modifié par cglasgow, 27 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[Lord Gremlin]

cglasgow wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Look, mages always can be possessed. The only role a mage can reliably perform is that of mind-controlled tool. Nothing else is reliable.

Congratulations, even Warhammer 40k doesn't take it that far. You just came up with something even more inhumane than the Imperium of Man, and they don't turn unsatisfactory psykers into Tranquil, they turn them into food.

Look, Imperium of Man is worshiping a damn half-corpse, naturally when you must sustain a magic zombie you do inhuman sacrifices. Psykers are not like mages in DA anyway. And, honestly, I think in case of W40K it's Chaos who're good guys. Especially Slaanesh. He's adorable.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

Yeah and no Qunari has ever left the Qun either. *cough*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
And, honestly, I think in case of W40K it's Chaos who're good guys. Especially Slaanesh. He's adorable.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

There are no Qunari abominations or blood mages. 

Yeah and no Qunari has ever left the Qun either. *cough*

Every system has flaws. Like, some Qunari leave the Qun and don't get killed in due time.

Also, I stand by my statement of Slaanesh being adorable, while DA abominations are plain ugly.

[The Angry One]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Every system has flaws. Like, some Qunari leave the Qun and don't get killed in due time.

The point is the Qun solves it's failures through denial.
Having a standing policy of "it doesn't matter, it never happened!" is the worst way to handle problems in a society.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ZombiePowered wrote...

Yeah, someone earlier said it was more Confucian, which is true in that there is a clearly ordered heirarchy.

Hierarchy implies that some caste is superior to the other in rank and in role, which is not the case with the Qunari. In this particular philosophy, they also difer from Plato's Republic that clearly delegates leaderhip to one caste, that of the Philosophers / Aristocrats.

While Qunari administration is delegated to one caste (female Tamassrans), they do not have the conception of herierachy and ruling like we do. All castes are on equal footing and each rules their respective sphere, for the good of the Qunari social body.

The Hierarchy is within each caste (I think), but I do not think it applies to the 3 castes and their position / relation vis a vis each other.

And again, I have to express my admiration of the fact that the head of the military is accountable like everyone else and doesn't even contemplate challenging orders and evictions. I think it's due to a mix of good social upbringing (or brainwashing) and good institutions.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Every system has flaws. Like, some Qunari leave the Qun and don't get killed in due time.

The point is the Qun solves it's failures through denial.
Having a standing policy of "it doesn't matter, it never happened!" is the worst way to handle problems in a society.

It is better than feeding a whole bunch of idiots who'll be arguing about said problems without solving them anyway (democracy says hello). And, well, Qunari don't deny the fact of Tal-Vashoth existence. They actively hunt them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Every system has flaws. Like, some Qunari leave the Qun and don't get killed in due time.

The point is the Qun solves it's failures through denial.
Having a standing policy of "it doesn't matter, it never happened!" is the worst way to handle problems in a society.

While I agree that this does seem to be their attitude, we don't know if the "Tal Vasoth problem" is actually that big of a deal to warrant a re-evaluation of their position. At least as of yet.

Sten talks about minor incidents (potentially terrorist attacks), but it doesn't seem to affect the Qunari that much. most Tal Vashoth just leave. 

People generally only take notice of a problem when it slaps them in the face. Ironically that was the Arishok's criticism of the Kirkwall nobility. But in his defense, you have to be pretty blind (willfully so) to not notice that Kirkwall is a ****hole.

[Lord Gremlin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Every system has flaws. Like, some Qunari leave the Qun and don't get killed in due time.

The point is the Qun solves it's failures through denial.
Having a standing policy of "it doesn't matter, it never happened!" is the worst way to handle problems in a society.

While I agree that this does seem to be their attitude, we don't know if the "Tal Vasoth problem" is actually that big of a deal to warrant a re-evaluation of their position. At least as of yet.

Sten talks about minor incidents (potentially terrorist attacks), but it doesn't seem to affect the Qunari that much. most Tal Vashoth just leave.

People generally only take notice of a problem when it slaps them in the face. Ironically that was the Arishok's criticism of the Kirkwall nobility. But in his defense, you have to be pretty blind (willfully so) to not notice that Kirkwall is a ****hole.

Aw, how true! The whole thing with Qunari in DA2 is that... Arishok is right. What's even more painful is that there are only 2 sane, reliable, intelligent characters in game - that's you (Hawke) and Arishok. And then, of course, you get Gaidered and forced to kill him, unless you can get that ****ty Isabella to come back and be given to him...

[Aradace]

Lithuasil wrote...

So throughout various threads in this forum I've seen people uphold the misconception that the Qunari would be cool, or badass, and several people have voiced outright incentive to join them.
How can anyone? The basic Idea of the Qun is that thinking is hard, responsibility makes the brain hurt, so why not just do what you're told. As interesting antagonists as they are, how can anyone support them? Those willfully submitting to the Qun are the most spineless, most pathetic individuals possibly imaginable - worse then any servant, worse then any slave because they willfully give themselves into slavery to avoid having to find purpose themselves. They neglect the very basis of what makes any conscious individual. Even the most shoddy beggar or cutthroat in darktown, even the most weak-willed bloodmage displays more backbone then the arishok does - at some point or another, those all at least tried, where the Arishok just goes "well the qun demands, and I'm too stupid to think or care on my own". How can anyone honestly praise and support those people, seriously? 

It's a little deeper than that IMO.  Submitting to the Qun, you are given a role.  And one is free to choose how one thinks/acts within that role.  As the Arishok said; They can choose to succeed or choose to die.  Glory is definable.  It's not so much of they're a "non thinking" society, it's more like they're a very "black and white" thinking society.  Either something is, or it isnt.  Which is a very simple and, in some cases, efficient way of thinking.  Someone either is, or isnt your enemy.  As a soldier, you have your duty, as bestowed by the Qun, nothing more, nothing less.  When you think about it, the Qunari society is MUCH more organized than the others presented in Thedas.  And with that much order, your military is going to be EXTREMELY efficient.  The qunari are warriors, plain and simple.  Even the most base of Qunari could wipe the floor with the average trained Kirkwallian or Fereldan. 
Why? Because they are trained specifically for that purpose from the time they are physically able to do so. 

Some might call their way of thinking "lazy".  But the fact is, it's not really.  As I said, it's simply thinking within the role they are given.  If you're trained as a soldier from the time you are born, until the time you die and told that is your role in life, that is how you are going to instinctively think.  And while they may not be very big on what I like to call "The people skills" they are very highly trained, and skilled warriors.  It takes a very large degree of mental discipline to only think within one's role within a society.  I can see where people would think what you do, because to the untrained eye, that is precisely what it looks like.  But if you take the time to dig a little deeper and allow yourself to, in a sense, "think like a qunari" you can start to understand why the Arishok gets so damned upset by all the "chaos" that is Kirkwall and would see it burned.

To put it in perspective,  what an average soldier might think of as a "good stategic move" is a common, constant thought in the mind of the Sten and the Arishok.  Why? Because as Ive stated, they are molded to think in this manner from day one.  They are given a role, and encouraged to excell and suceed within that role, which leads to glory and honor.  There's more "thinking" going on in the mind of the Qunari than you think there is. 

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While I agree that this does seem to be their attitude, we don't know if the "Tal Vasoth problem" is actually that big of a deal to warrant a re-evaluation of their position. At least as of yet.

The Arishok brought what, several hundred guys to Kirkwall?

We saw at least 20-30 Tal-Vashoth.  That's like a 10% defection rate among qunari exposed to outsider culture for any length of time.

Modifié par cglasgow, 27 mars 2011 - 07:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While I agree that this does seem to be their attitude, we don't know if the "Tal Vasoth problem" is actually that big of a deal to warrant a re-evaluation of their position. At least as of yet.

The Arishok brought what, several hundred guys to Kirkwall?

We saw at least 20-30 Tal-Vashoth.  That's like a 10% defection rate among qunari exposed to outsider culture for any length of time.

Well first, I wouldn't put that much importance on the numbers we see, otherwise I have to believe that Kirkwall has hundreds of thugs all living in a few HQs.

But that incident was pretty isolated. It's not like Qunaris keep shipwrecking all the time. And it's very far from their lands. The main polity is not going to be affected that much.

Should that have made the Arishok re-evaluate his position at least a little? Yes. But he's a soldier, it's not his job to think about it. At least I don't think it is.  In addition, the Qunari are not victims of foreign influence as of yet. We know they heavily regulate trade for instance, from what I remember. And from what we see, they seem to attract at least as much converts from those outsider cultures as they lose defectors. Many elves sided with them during the attack. 

My point was, unless it was affecting Qunari society directly, they are going to keep dismissing them as blind idiots. Which is not reasonable, no. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mars 2011 - 07:43 .

[The Angry One]

But that's a two way street isn't it?
Yes a few Tal-Vashoth doesn't compromise Qunari society as a whole, yet the Arishok blusters about how bas coming to him to convert to the Qun demonstrates the weakness of outsider society and beliefs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

But that's a two way street isn't it?
Yes a few Tal-Vashoth doesn't compromise Qunari society as a whole, yet the Arishok blusters about how bas coming to him to convert to the Qun demonstrates the weakness of outsider society and beliefs.

Absolutely.

I'd say that Kirkwall was clearly dysfunctional and the Qunari polity would be better. But yes, there is definitely hypocracy there.

The major difference is, the Arishok doesn't get pissed off about it like radical Chantry elements (could be more confidence or simply because he knows the Qunari are going to conquer everyone anyways). And the Tal Vashoth dont' actually join other cultures (except that merc guy. And Armas the merchant. It's debatable whether that counts as joining adopting culture) and they still keep a lot of Qun practises. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[ModernMan2009]

Remember the quanari leader is in charge of the body of the Qun and not its spirit or mind. His defined role is to protect and enforce not to lead and educate. When he is trapped in Kirkwall he is left without guidance from the other parts of his society and must struggle to understand what to do next based only on his understanding of the Qun. When the elves under his protection are asked to be handed over for trial by the Kirkwall Magistrate he interprets this as an attack against the body of the Qun and is now given an outlet for his growing frustration. He razes the city and attempts to subjugate the populace to the demands of the Qun. His personality is so focused on his role he has no ability to function with the individuals around him.
The main purpose and reason for the Qunari and the philosophy of the Qun is this.

Individuals live a life of uncertainty and doubt and that is what causes the pain and anguish in their lives. By sacrificing certain aspects of your life to create a strong socialist society you can then focus on certain strengths and become a master in your assigned role. Your strength then becomes strength for the entire society and the society will protect you. You are no longer left with any doubts and fears and can live and die fulfilling your duty.

The Tal Vashoth, the rebels, are nothing more than dead branches falling from a living healthy tree. They are weak and their removal gives opportunity for the Qun to grow stronger.

Modifié par ModernMan2009, 27 mars 2011 - 08:08 .

[ZombiePowered]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

Yeah, someone earlier said it was more Confucian, which is true in that there is a clearly ordered heirarchy.

Hierarchy implies that some caste is superior to the other in rank and in role, which is not the case with the Qunari. In this particular philosophy, they also difer from Plato's Republic that clearly delegates leaderhip to one caste, that of the Philosophers / Aristocrats.

While Qunari administration is delegated to one caste (female Tamassrans), they do not have the conception of herierachy and ruling like we do. All castes are on equal footing and each rules their respective sphere, for the good of the Qunari social body.

The Hierarchy is within each caste (I think), but I do not think it applies to the 3 castes and their position / relation vis a vis each other.

That was what my heirarchy comment was refering to. The castes are of equal importance, but within them there is an ordered heirarchy. That's why it is interesting that instead of being ruled by one person, they are ruled by three.

[ModernMan2009]

There are no slaves in the Qunari and no hierarchal structures. There are simply roles and all are equal and vital for survival. They are based on what a person needs in order to live well and free from suffering. Its basically a mix of Confucius and western socialism.