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[ZombiePowered]

ModernMan2009 wrote...

There are no slaves in the Qunari and no hierarchal structures. There are simply roles and all are equal and vital for survival. They are based on what a person needs in order to live well and free from suffering. Its basically a mix of Confucius and western socialism.

But there is heirarchy in that within each caste certain people can give orders to other; there are decision makers, and there are grunts. The difference between the Qunari heirarchal structure and historical heirarchies is that there is no sense of superiority afforded to those higher up the chain; everyone has their places, and they all accept their own roles and the roles of those around them as necessary and just. It's an heirarchy without oppression and arrogance.

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that incident was pretty isolated. It's not like Qunaris keep shipwrecking all the time. And it's very far from their lands. The main polity is not going to be affected that much.

If the qunari culture cannot survive communication with outside ideas without a significant plurality going Tal-Vashoth, then maybe its not as ideal as it seems.

Also, the hilarity of claiming 'all are equal' underneath the Qun is epic.  If you're going to tell me that the Arishok doesn't enjoy any more privilege or power than the laborer-caste whose job it is to cart fertilizer to the fields, then you're kidding yourself.

[PantheraOnca]

cglasgow wrote...

If you're going to tell me that the Arishok doesn't enjoy any more privilege or power than the laborer-caste whose job it is to cart fertilizer to the fields, then you're kidding yourself.

Power? Almost certainly as he is a leader of his caste.

Privlege? We have no way of telling. He gets a chair in kirkwall when the other qunari seem to stand around. That's about as far as his privlege goes that we can tell.

[Lord Gremlin]

PantheraOnca wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

If you're going to tell me that the Arishok doesn't enjoy any more privilege or power than the laborer-caste whose job it is to cart fertilizer to the fields, then you're kidding yourself.

Power? Almost certainly as he is a leader of his caste.

Privlege? We have no way of telling. He gets a chair in kirkwall when the other qunari seem to stand around. That's about as far as his privlege goes that we can tell.

And that was a stone chair, cold and solid. Poor Arishok...

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Power? Almost certainly as he is a leader of his caste.

Privlege? We have no way of telling. He gets a chair in kirkwall when the other qunari seem to stand around. That's about as far as his privlege goes that we can tell.

And he's vastly better equipped then any other Qunari in Kirkwall...

[PantheraOnca]

Vastly seems to overstate the case.

He has 2 2h weapons that he uses. Big horns don't count as equipment (its how you use them that matters).

He has some potions? I know most Lieutenant and higher random mobs have them, do none of the qunari equivalents get them?

What else does he have that amounts to "vastly better?"

[Lord Gremlin]

Lithuasil wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Power? Almost certainly as he is a leader of his caste.

Privlege? We have no way of telling. He gets a chair in kirkwall when the other qunari seem to stand around. That's about as far as his privlege goes that we can tell.

And he's vastly better equipped then any other Qunari in Kirkwall...

Some cheap-looking armor and an additional axe? Please... The only expensive possession of Arishok is his golden earrings.

[Lithuasil]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Some cheap-looking armor and an additional axe? Please... The only expensive possession of Arishok is his golden earrings.

Having two big steel weapons, when the rest of your tribe is throwing wooden spears, that's 'vastly better'. As is being clad in considerable amounts of armor, when most of your tribe wears nothing but loincloth and bodypaint. And he has golden ears.

So yes, he has privilege, even in what little we see of him. How small or big that privilege is doesn't matter - unequal is still unequal.

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Some cheap-looking armor and an additional axe? Please... The only expensive possession of Arishok is his golden earrings.

Having two big steel weapons, when the rest of your tribe is throwing wooden spears, that's 'vastly better'. As is being clad in considerable amounts of armor, when most of your tribe wears nothing but loincloth and bodypaint. And he has golden ears.

So yes, he has privilege, even in what little we see of him. How small or big that privilege is doesn't matter - unequal is still unequal.

Stens have better armor.

[Lithuasil]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Some cheap-looking armor and an additional axe? Please... The only expensive possession of Arishok is his golden earrings.

Having two big steel weapons, when the rest of your tribe is throwing wooden spears, that's 'vastly better'. As is being clad in considerable amounts of armor, when most of your tribe wears nothing but loincloth and bodypaint. And he has golden ears.

So yes, he has privilege, even in what little we see of him. How small or big that privilege is doesn't matter - unequal is still unequal.

Stens have better armor.

Which proves my point. Footsoldiers have nothing, officers have some armor, and the commander has lots.
Mighty equality those qunari have there.

[PantheraOnca]

Well, there's equality and then there's equality. i.e. raising taxes on everyone by 1 dollar is equal, and raising taxes by 1% on everyone is also equal. The difference in how much you are taxed by each scenario is not equal[edit] proportional to your income[/edit].

Additionally, the qunari seem practically minded so the distribution of equipment might be along the same lines as they organize their society, namely those people who can use a tool the best receive it. There is still the problem of scarcity so absolute equality is non-possible while proportional equality may be reachable.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 27 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[PantheraOnca]

they really need to not have quote and edit next to each other. 

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 27 mars 2011 - 10:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But that incident was pretty isolated. It's not like Qunaris keep shipwrecking all the time. And it's very far from their lands. The main polity is not going to be affected that much.

If the qunari culture cannot survive communication with outside ideas without a significant plurality going Tal-Vashoth, then maybe its not as ideal as it seems.

Those Tal Vashoth are not even embracing other cultures. They are simply deserting. The only people who might arguably be considered as adopting another culture are the merc and the merchant Armas. But mercenaries generally don't care about culture and Armas was working with Darkspawn so he doesn't give a ****.

So no, they are not losing people to other cultures. They are simply losing people who wander off and become nothing more than mercs and bandits.  From what we have seen at least.
In addition, they still adopt things of the Qun, like the treatment of mages.

Furthermore, when Qunari come in contact with other cultures, at least just as many are converting and joining them. Which is more than desertion. Those people are not only leaving their cultures, they are adopting a new one, with new loyalties. The Tal Vashoth have no loyalty except to themselves.

Also, the hilarity of claiming 'all are equal' underneath the Qun is epic.  If you're going to tell me that the Arishok doesn't enjoy any more privilege or power than the laborer-caste whose job it is to cart fertilizer to the fields, then you're kidding yourself.

Power =/= privileges.
Obviously he has more power befitting the role he has.

That doesn't mean he enjoys more privileges like legal exceptions, tax exemptions, owning land...etc etc.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Those Tal Vashoth are not even embracing other cultures. They are simply deserting.

Now you're just quibbling.  And uselessly so.

As soon as a detachment of qunari got near the fence and stayed there, something like about 1 in 10 of them jumped right over that fence and hauled ass.   And remember, this is 1 in 10 who come from a culture where... well, scroll back a few pages and reread that post about how being born and raised in the Qun leaves you with severely un-practiced mental faculties re: knowing and seeking out independent opportunities.

And also remember, Par Vollen is an island.  And one that is a long way away.  If you want to 'desert' from Par Vollen, you've got a long trip ahead of you.  It's really easy to say 'Yeah, hardly no one ever leaves us!' when 'us' normally lives in a place that's nigh-impossible to escape.  It's something else again when you have an open, easily crossable, 'border'.

I find it interesting that the qunari, whose system is supposedly so much more fulfilling and satisfying than ours, starts suffering such a... noticeable... desertion rate as soon as a detachment of qunari is actually put in a position where deserting is geographically easier, and kept there for several years.  You would think that if it was really such an awesome and spiritually uplifting existence, that that wouldn't happen.

[cglasgow]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Additionally, the qunari seem practically minded so the distribution of equipment might be along the same lines as they organize their society, namely those people who can use a tool the best receive it. There is still the problem of scarcity so absolute equality is non-possible while proportional equality may be reachable.

There's also that such a system is hilariously easy to abuse; all you have to do is play sophist's games with the definition of "best able to use".

After all, the leader has the much harder job of making command decisions instead of simply following orders; therefore it should be logical to give him the most comfortable quarters and the best food, so that he's as little stressed as possible, so that he can make better decisions!   And the common soldiers, well, they don't have to do any heavy thinking, so they don't need as much attention paid to their living environment.   etc, etc, etc.

Seriously, just look at real-world history of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' systems to see how the theory was 'everything is utilarian and assigned at need' and yet the practice somehow ended up as 'the leaders get the best of everything, and everybody else gets sweet ****-all'.

Or: I'll believe that qunari resource allocation really is that fair-minded and perfect the day after I actually see it work that way, and not before.  And no, the qunari in Kirkwall don't count; that's an inadequately supplied military expeditionary force.   I mean, I want to see it work that way back in Par Vollen, at the highest levels.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...
Now you're just quibbling.  And uselessly so.

As soon as a detachment of qunari got near the fence and stayed there, something like about 1 in 10 of them jumped right over that fence and hauled ass.   And remember, this is 1 in 10 who come from a culture where... well, scroll back a few pages and reread that post about how being born and raised in the Qun leaves you with severely un-practiced mental faculties re: knowing and seeking out independent opportunities.

Not at all. There is a huge difference between joining another culture, aka thinking it's superior, and striking out on your own to be a merc or bandit while still preserving parts of your culture. The Tal Vashoth that we have seen are the latter.
So they do not represent a direct threat to the Qunari. 

1/10 is a number you came up with with very little evidence, based on an isolated event. It's useless.
A more interesting and pertinent statistic would be to see how many Qunari became Tal Vashoth during the occupaton of big chunks of Thedas. We know that many converted to the Qun and quite sincerily. The fact that mass desertion was not even mentionned could be because it was simply very negligeable and no where near the desertion rate you came up with based on extremily little. 

And to make something clear. I am not arguing pro-Qunari, despite some trying to make it look like a dichotomy. I am trying to bring nuance. But I never said the Qunari system is ideal. Nor did I say that the Tal Vashoth issue isn't a problem and isn't an indication that the Qun is not as perfect as they like to think. Just that, for now, the Tal Vashoth seemingly do not represent a major threat for the qunari to re-evaluate their position. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 12:17 .

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

1/10 is a number you came up with with very little evidence

The # of Tal-Vashoth we meet in the game can be counted with our own eyes.   The # of qunari that arrived with the Arishok, total, is stated at several points in the game.  I don't care if you don't like hearing it; it's canon, it's fact, and you're going to face it.

Recently, your arguments have consisted more and more of trying to wish away inconvenient facts and pretend that they're not there.  You will never convince me using such tactics, and I hope to God you won't convince anybody else either.

Modifié par cglasgow, 28 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[sheppard7]

Considering the toughest fight in the game was against the leader of the Qunari, yes they have appeal for being able to kick that ass.

I barely sweated the fights at the end of Act 3 but the Arishok was very hard.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
 
A more interesting and pertinent statistic would be to see how many Qunari became Tal Vashoth during the occupaton of big chunks of Thedas. We know that many converted to the Qun and quite sincerily. The fact that mass desertion was not even mentionned could be because it was simply very negligeable and no where near the desertion rate you came up with based on extremily little. 

Actually, the much, much more likely reason we don't hear about it is that the Qunari in an occupational army have the means to track down and kill all their deserters, and that denial of things not fitting in their world view is one of the mayor past times of those oh-so-honest qun.
That said, I do doubt desertation rates there where that high. But of course, the contact with a different culture is a different contact when you're invading the place, *converting* people all over by means of *spear*, then when you're actually observing said culture.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

1/10 is a number you came up with with very little evidence

The # of Tal-Vashoth we meet in the game can be counted with our own eyes.   The # of qunari that arrived with the Arishok, total, is stated at several points in the game.  I don't care if you don't like hearing it; it's canon, it's fact, and you're going to face it.

And it's canon that Kirkwall has hundreds of bandits that live in small HQs. Great.

Bring me actual statistics, based not on an isolated events but a continuous trend. Show me that the desertion rate is higher than the rate of conversions to the Qun.  During the wars with Thedas, so that being on an island isn't an issue. The Exalted marches happened a century after the Qunari appeared.

Unless you have those numbers, your hypothesis that the Qunari suffer a huge desertion rate as a rule whenever they come into contact with other cultures is based on very weak evidence.

Since you can't provide those numbers, and neither can I, then I'd advise refrainign from making absolute statements and trying to make it look like a general fact to support your argument.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Actually, the much, much more likely reason we don't hear about it is that the Qunari in an occupational army have the means to track down and kill all their deserters, and that denial of things not fitting in their world view is one of the mayor past times of those oh-so-honest qun.
That said, I do doubt desertation rates there where that high. But of course, the contact with a different culture is a different contact when you're invading the place, *converting* people all over by means of *spear*, then when you're actually observing said culture.

The Tal Vashoth have no problem escaping from islands. I highly doubt that they can't escape from Qunari armies when they are too busy fighting Thedasian powers. The Qunari are not that awesome.

The Qunari occupied the North for a century until the Exalted Marches were called (which took 60 years apprrox). They would have experienced other cultures, even when trying to subjugate them. Yes, brainwashing and the like would have played a big role in this but that's besides the point.

The point was, I see no indication that the rate of desertion is higher than the rate of conversion when coming into  contact with other cultures. And while conversion was forced yes, the Chantry had a very difficult time wiping the Qun out. They in fact exterminated many Qun converts, which implies that there were many sincere conversions.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[PantheraOnca]

cglasgow wrote...


There's also that such a system is hilariously easy to abuse; all you have to do is play sophist's games with the definition of "best able to use".

After all, the leader has the much harder job of making command decisions instead of simply following orders; therefore it should be logical to give him the most comfortable quarters and the best food, so that he's as little stressed as possible, so that he can make better decisions!   

/snip

Is it easy to abuse? certainly. Do the Qunari abuse it? Unknown.

You could also make the argument that by allowing the leaders luxury, they lose perspective on life of the average qunari and are no longer capable of making the best decisions for the society as a whole.

I would love to get a more thorough look at qunari society so that we could make further educated discussions about how they work. If they bring back multiple origins for DA3 I REALLY (REALLYREALLY) want to be able to play a qunari.

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And it's canon that Kirkwall has hundreds of bandits that live in small HQs. Great.

Bring me actual statistics, based not on an isolated events but a continuous trend.

So, you want to ignore what's actually happening in the game while at the same time demanding that I travel into a fictional universe to do a full sociological head-count.

At this point you have stopped arguing about Dragon Age 2 and instead are trying to defend some entirely imaginary version of the Qunari, their society, and Thedas that exists only in your own personal fan-fiction.

[KnightofPhoenix]

cglasgow wrote...
So, you want to ignore what's actually happening in the game while at the same time demanding that I travel into a fictional universe to do a full sociological head-count.

If you don't have actual evidence to support your argument, it might as well be useless. Unless you specify it's speculation on your part.

Not only do we not know the numbers in DA2, we also cannot use what amounts to one isolated incident to support a hypothesis that the Qunari have massive desertion rates whenever they come into contact with other cultures, unless it's proven that this is a rule and not an exception. And not when we know that many end up converting. 

I would be much more interested in knowing what happened during the Qunari wars, before I make up my mind fully regarding either position. 
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[cglasgow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you don't have actual evidence to support your argument, it might as well be useless.

The problem is, I do have actual evidence; its called "what we see happen in the game".  But since you're bound and determined to ignore that, there is no point in discussing anything with you.