647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Ah, another Qun vs. Chantry debate.

I'll ask the question I normally ask when that subject comes up:

Q: You live in a place where you are a) removed from your parents as a very small child raised in a creche by priests c) only allowed to go into the one career they think you are destined for d) placed in state-assigned quarters and not allowed to live anywhere else or go anywhere else without permission and e) will be following orders until you die whether you like it or not.

Are you 1) a mage living in a Circle of Magi or 2) a subject of the Qun?

A: Yes.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[Zkyire]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Qunari sent delegates to peacefully talk, something the Qunari feel they do not owe anyone, and their way of repaying the Qunari for the peace talk? They murdered the delegates.

At every turn Qunari were being killed and plot against them were always active. The Qunari did not come for war, they did not come to convert. They were here for their relic.

They showed up in a terrority that was not their own, in a city that was not their own, with a military force of several hundred soldiers, and occupied a portion of said city for years on end, lied why they were there and lied about how long they would stay. That portion of the city was also gated off, and nobody from Kirkwall could enter that part of their own city, without the Qunari's permission.

[bawpie]

Thing is, Sten, Arishok and Saaberas are probably some of my favourite characters. Maybe because they have so much conviction and belief. They're fully behind the Qun, it's either admirable or frightening depending on how you view it. But each of those characters represent just a small dose of the Qunari. How I'd feel if I was on their territory is a different matter entirely.

Women are never allowed to be warriors. Mages are chained. They're an aggressive, conquering nation. Those 3 things alone are enough to make me think of them as natural enemies of Thedas. But I think it's more of 'a lesser evil' situation than anything - we're not exactly encouraged to be fond of Orlesians (decadent conquerers) or the Tevinter Imperium (decadent, conquering slavers with a fondness for blood magic) for instance, but we've never really had any dealings with them (at least not on the level as you get with Sten/Arishok) with the exception of Leliana (who was Orlesian I think?).

So, yeah, I really like the Quanari characters we get screen time with - Act 2 was the best part of DA2 because of this. I was massively disappointed when I had to face the Arishok, partly because I felt he'd made the wrong decision, partly because I didn't *want* to fight him but was left with no option.

[Zkyire]

cglasgow wrote...

Ah, another Qun vs. Chantry debate.

I'll ask the question I normally ask when that subject comes up:

Q: You live in a place where you are a) removed from your parents as a very small child raised in a creche by priests c) only allowed to go into the one career they think you are destined for d) placed in state-assigned quarters and not allowed to live anywhere else or go anywhere else without permission and e) will be following orders until you die whether you like it or not.

Are you 1) a mage living in a Circle of Magi or 2) a subject of the Qun?

A: Yes.

The Circle governs mages.

The Qun governs everyone.

[Foolsfolly]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Bondkakan wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
they willfully give themselves into slavery to avoid having to find purpose themselves.  

And the followers of the chant find their own purpose, right? I mean, it's not like they follow the teachings of Andraste. That would be silly.

You can choose not to believe in the Maker and the Chantry wont hunt you down and execute you.

Unlike the Qunari. If you choose not to follow the Qun anymore, they make you their enemy.

Besides, the Chantry generally is an article of faith, the Qun governs every part of their lives.

DA:O. The Landsmeet. The Revered Mother tells Loghain that the Royal army and/or City Guard cannot interfere with the holy right of a Templar. That proves that the Chantry is above the law.

In Kirkwall the most powerful person who's really running the city-state? Everyone says its Meredith not the Viscount. The Viscount cannot stop the Chantry aggression against the Qunari, an aggression that will only lead to war and the Viscount knows this. He laments this many times, but he has not the authority to reprimand the Templars.

The Chantry is an article of faith, they don't go out of their way to kill just any non-believer they meet. But they are the power of Thedas. No ruling party has the power to do anything against them and that's been there since the first game.

[jabajack]

I wouldn't say the Qun makes you a slave, it does restrict and remove many of what we consider freedoms but not all. Everyone is given an education and tests to determine their strengths and are assigned as such. Soldiers and Artists can only be as such because that is what they are best at and how they can contribute most to their society, within that role they can acheive as much as they want. Their society has made several great leaps in science, gunpowder etc

They are highly intolerant of anything that differs from their ideology not from ignorant hate but from a sense of arrogant superiority. If they conquer you they kill anyone defies them (eep) but any who willing convert are given a scary amount of trust. Within their society they value everyone which compared to other cultures like Orzammars dwarves and the casteless is quite an acheivement.

Qunari are just devoted to an ideology, something bigger than thmselves rather than the individual. They have a society I can easily find fault in but they have many ideas that are very appealing.

[cglasgow]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

The Circle governs mages.

The Qun governs everyone.

Exactly!  Life underneath the Qun is just one big giant version of the Gallows, only instead of mages being locked in there, everybody is.    (Except for actual qunari mages, of course.  What happens to them would make me wish I was in the Gallows instead.  ****, I'd rather be Tranquil; its basically a horrible living death both ways, but at least one is kind enough to turn off my pain sensors!)

No.  Thanks.

[jabajack]

cglasgow wrote...

Ah, another Qun vs. Chantry debate.

I'll ask the question I normally ask when that subject comes up:

Q: You live in a place where you are a) removed from your parents as a very small child raised in a creche by priests c) only allowed to go into the one career they think you are destined for d) placed in state-assigned quarters and not allowed to live anywhere else or go anywhere else without permission and e) will be following orders until you die whether you like it or not.

Are you 1) a mage living in a Circle of Magi or 2) a subject of the Qun?

A: Yes.

At least in the Qun everyone is in the same situation while the Circle knows of society beyond their walls. I'm still willing to beleive that there is more to the Qun and its culture. We've only seen military elements afterall.

[Foolsfolly]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Qunari sent delegates to peacefully talk, something the Qunari feel they do not owe anyone, and their way of repaying the Qunari for the peace talk? They murdered the delegates.

At every turn Qunari were being killed and plot against them were always active. The Qunari did not come for war, they did not come to convert. They were here for their relic.

They showed up in a terrority that was not their own, in a city that was not their own, with a military force of several hundred soldiers, and occupied a portion of said city for years on end, lied why they were there and lied about how long they would stay. That portion of the city was also gated off, and nobody from Kirkwall could enter that part of their own city, without the Qunari's permission.

Granted.

It was an act of war. The Viscount allowed it instead of shutting the gates and fighting the Qunari off. Right move? Wrong move? I don't know. It's the same lack of spine that led to the refugee problem Kirkwall suffers. They cannot keep people out of their city and it's drowning them.

But the Viscount let them in.

[blothulfur]

The swine herd led her charges to the slaughter house and upon the way came across the Arishok striding to the triumvirate with the steel clad veterans of the antaam beside him, even in the wide streets of Par Vollen the two companies could not pass so great were either sides numbers and in humility the Arishok stepped aside and bowed lowed to the mistress of swine for she was intent upon the prosecution of her duties and thus her task stood above the great Arishoks who was merely walking to his appointed place.

In the Qun there is pride, accomplishment and satisfaction to be found in any task at which the kabethari excels and with their place in the world assured and their fate certain the studious qunari can feel free to excel and face down any be they ever so high if they pursue their personal path to enlightenment and their own understanding of the Qun.

We of the Ashkaari have spoken with many of the kabethari who joined us and thus they have answered from the lowliest elf slave to the highest scion of the nobility, they yearn for certainty and a place in the world as they should and this is the Qun calling to their souls with simple truths. Indeed even your "mages" have come to us to be bound and leashed knowing that their brothers cries for freedoms that they do not deserve and responsibilities they have not earned are the mewling cries of self entitled spoiled children who have never known the sting of hardship or the weight of duty.

Thought for the day: Look to Tevinter bas, look and despair for in Minrathous the abyss of the unknowing has crafted a hell for all to see.

Anaan esaam Qun.

[cglasgow]

I wouldn't say the Qun makes you a slave, it does restrict and remove many of what we consider freedoms but not all. Everyone is given an education and tests to determine their strengths and are assigned as such.

And slaves are assigned to whatever jobs their masters think they're best used for. After all, its a very stupid slavemaster who assigns a small girl out to load shipping crates and a huge burly guy to cook soup instead of the other way around.   And if you want your slave to be doing something that takes training, you get them trained (usually by other slaves already assigned to that same job before you).   Oh, aren't you so generous!

If they conquer you they kill anyone defies them (eep) but any who willing convert are given a scary amount of trust.

Yeah, you're "trusted" to do what you're told to do whenever you're told to do it, and to do it right. And if you want to do something else... well, sucks to be you, unless you want to go Tal-Vashoth. And we know what happens to you then.

And even if you're trying to do what you're told to do, if you do it wrong? Congrats! You're like Sten or the Arishok! You're stuck out in the cold until you can fix your own screwup, even if that means 'never'.

Or you could end up like Ketojan instead; somebody else's screwup in inadequately supervising you still dictates that you have to die.

Really. The Qun is just the biggest slave plantation on Thedas all dressed up in fancy religion. Man, even Andraste at least freed the damn elves.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:00 .

[Maelora]

They're pretty much the poster boys for Lawful Evil. 'Convert or die' at the heart of it.

Some people are strongly drawn to tyranny and submission, those who are especially weak, stupid or fearful. They desperately want something to take away their choices and freedoms, because they find these things frightening and difficult. There are lots of real world parellels, which I won't go into here. But David Gaider described them very accurately, and none of those words he used are meant as compliments.

The thing about Freedom is... it isn't free.

Modifié par Maelora, 21 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[cglasgow]

No kidding.

'Come, give me your absolute obedience and living as a cog in my machine, and I will give you total freedom from doubt and uncertainty.'   Man, if I wanted that kind of offer, I'd join a cult. Or maybe go get myself lobotomized.

Doubt and uncertainty and fear and pain... yeah, they suck.   They're also the price you pay for being alive.  So, life is tough, get a helmet... not a collar.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[Lithuasil]

Maelora wrote...

They're pretty much the poster boys for Lawful Evil. 'Convert or die' at the heart of it.

Some people are strongly drawn to tyranny and submission, those who are especially weak, stupid or fearful. They desperately want something to take away their choices and freedoms, because they find these things frightening and difficult. There are lots of real world parellels, which I won't go into here.

The thing about Freedom is... it isn't free.

The Necromongers from Riddick had vastly superior architecture and a better dresscode though. And the Lord marshall is a much more appealing person then the Arishok who's every line desperately made me want to lead a preemptive strike against the compound :|

[Foolsfolly]

Besides, determining which is better the Chantry which is a lot like the old Catholic Church where the Pope's will was supreme or a militant Communistic-like theocracy is too hard to tell. There's no real freedom in any of these areas. Do you honestly think Hawke would have risen to such power if the Amell name was not from nobility? Do you see what non-nobles and elven people have going for them in Kirkwall?

And as I've said before, the Chantry's above the law and uses the Templars as warriors, police, and secret police since they can strike at night and steal children away from their parents. Then there's the Seekers which ARE secret police that the Divine alone controls.

The purpose of the thread was to describe what was the appeal to the Qunari. I think there's been enough talking about that to show the OP why people find them fascinating and interesting.

If you're a modern Westerner you're not going to want to live in either of those situations. We fight wars over the idea of Freedom and neither the Chantry with feudal rule or the Qunari ordering everyone's life sounds appealing.

But the conviction, the cool look, the moral code, and the fact that they are worthy rivals for any game makes the Quanri so interesting. That's why we love them. We don't all want to strip down to our underwear, put on body paint, and follow orders without question for the rest of our lives because we find them interesting.

[Maelora]

It's reprehensible, Cglasgow, but some people feel like that. Dictators, tyrants and monsters frequently come to power on a popular mandate. Esepcially where the populace is uneducated and easily brainwashed. The Qun is just one big cult.

[cglasgow]

Hey, the Lord Marshal's response to somebody getting in his face was to rip their soul right out of their body and eat it. Best scene in the movie! (Pity the other 118 minutes of the film weren't any fun.)

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Besides, determining which is better the Chantry which is a lot like the old Catholic Church where the Pope's will was supreme or a militant Communistic-like theocracy is too hard to tell. There's no real freedom in any of these areas. Do you honestly think Hawke would have risen to such power if the Amell name was not from nobility?

Actually, yes.  He'd just have had to buy a different house.

Remember, the dude made his fortune on Bartrand's expedition, not by inheriting anything.   They didn't even get into the city on the 'Amell family name', they got in because Uncle Gamlen knew somebody who was willing to front the bribe money in return for whoring out your ass to them.

[Maelora]

Foolsfolly wrote...
But the conviction, the cool look, the moral code, and the fact that they are worthy rivals for any game makes the Quanri so interesting. That's why we love them. We don't all want to strip down to our underwear, put on body paint, and follow orders without question for the rest of our lives because we find them interesting.

Fair comment.

The writers do a good job of making them alien to our modern mindset, and give us feelings of doubt and unease about them.

A lot of people romanticise them... but the moment the Viscounts head goes tumbling down those steps is the moment the mask comes off, and we see what they really are.

[Lithuasil]

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

[cglasgow]

The problem lies in being able to remember that "interesting" and "cool" are not the same things as "decent" or "admirable".

The qunari are intensely interesting. As fictional creations, they're intricate and engaging.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with if their way of life is good are not.

The villain is often the most interesting guy in the movie. But he's still the villain.

[jabajack]

cglasgow wrote...

I wouldn't say the Qun makes you a slave, it does restrict and remove many of what we consider freedoms but not all. Everyone is given an education and tests to determine their strengths and are assigned as such.

And slaves are assigned to whatever jobs their masters think they're best used for. After all, its a very stupid slavemaster who assigns a small girl out to load shipping crates and a huge burly guy to cook soup instead of the other way around.   And if you want your slave to be doing something that takes training, you get them trained (usually by other slaves already assigned to that same job before you).   Oh, aren't you so generous!

If they conquer you they kill anyone defies them (eep) but any who willing convert are given a scary amount of trust.

Yeah, you're "trusted" to do what you're told to do whenever you're told to do it, and to do it right. And if you want to do something else... well, sucks to be you, unless you want to go Tal-Vashoth. And we know what happens to you then.

And even if you're trying to do what you're told to do, if you do it wrong? Congrats! You're like Sten or the Arishok! You're stuck out in the cold until you can fix your own screwup, even if that means 'never'.

Or you could end up like Ketojan instead; somebody else's screwup in inadequately supervising you still dictates that you have to die.

Really. The Qun is just the biggest slave plantation on Thedas all dressed up in fancy religion. Man, even Andraste at least freed the damn elves.

I still do not beleive that 'Slavery' is the best term, yes you are a slave but not to a master but to an idea. In tevinter the master can treat the slave however you want, the slave is nothing but a dog to be used and killed whenever. This is our view of slavery.
The Qun, from the way its presented and what we know wouldn't allow this, the arishok could order a soldier to attack no matter what. However he would only order the soldier, as its his job, and even then the arishok see no alternative (or he would have just attacked Kirkwall outright).  From what we learn of Qunari tatics ( the use of poison gas etc) they value each of their 'members?'

Ketojan is the best example, he was a mage and that itself is a whole other issue, is magic evil/dangerous etc.

[cglasgow]

Lithuasil wrote...

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

Incoming Heinlein quote alert!

"[...] surrendered to authoritarianism, nonsense like the "leader principle", totalitarianism, all the bonds placed on liberty which treat men as so many economic and political units with no importance as individuals. No dignity - do what you're told, believe what you are told and shut your mouth!  Workers, soldiers, breeding units...

If that were the object of life, there would have been no point in including consciousness in the scheme at all!"

-- Lost Legacy, by Robert A. Heinlein

[Foolsfolly]

blothulfur wrote...

The swine herd led her charges to the slaughter house and upon the way came across the Arishok striding to the triumvirate with the steel clad veterans of the antaam beside him, even in the wide streets of Par Vollen the two companies could not pass so great were either sides numbers and in humility the Arishok stepped aside and bowed lowed to the mistress of swine for she was intent upon the prosecution of her duties and thus her task stood above the great Arishoks who was merely walking to his appointed place.

In the Qun there is pride, accomplishment and satisfaction to be found in any task at which the kabethari excels and with their place in the world assured and their fate certain the studious qunari can feel free to excel and face down any be they ever so high if they pursue their personal path to enlightenment and their own understanding of the Qun.

We of the Ashkaari have spoken with many of the kabethari who joined us and thus they have answered from the lowliest elf slave to the highest scion of the nobility, they yearn for certainty and a place in the world as they should and this is the Qun calling to their souls with simple truths. Indeed even your "mages" have come to us to be bound and leashed knowing that their brothers cries for freedoms that they do not deserve and responsibilities they have not earned are the mewling cries of self entitled spoiled children who have never known the sting of hardship or the weight of duty.

Thought for the day: Look to Tevinter bas, look and despair for in Minrathous the abyss of the unknowing has crafted a hell for all to see.

Anaan esaam Qun.

Cool story, brah.

See, this is why they're so interesting. And why you would want to play a character that would become a Qunari. It's no different than wanting your Warden or Hawke to be a devote Chantry follower. It would have been cool to side with Qunari. Would everyone do it? No. Does everyone side with Mages or the Templars? No.

They're interesting and it would have been cool to see them from the inside instead of this weird outside view where we can't fully grasp their concepts easily.

[kidbd15]

Because Qunari is spelled with the letters of Quarian... just insert the 'n' at the end of Quarian in between 'u' and 'a' of Quarian, and then remove the 'a' at the end, and you get Qunari