647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

jabajack wrote...

I still do not believe that 'Slavery' is the best term, yes you are a slave but not to a master but to an idea.

Oh, so its a cult.  That's so much better... wait.

[jabajack]

Lithuasil wrote...

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

I do agree that i am not sure what Qunari society is striving for, they think they have acheived the best? However you can't just say Qunari are just like a society of ants and vermin. We know each member has emotions, desire etc and their culture, art, music etc are vastly unexplored. How can an artist not have drive or ambition?

They just have an alien culture. One that has positives over others as well as negatives. What was that quote...Militant Islamic Borg is the best term just not all the negative stuff that goes along with it.

[Lithuasil]

jabajack wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

I do agree that i am not sure what Qunari society is striving for, they think they have acheived the best? However you can't just say Qunari are just like a society of ants and vermin. We know each member has emotions, desire etc and their culture, art, music etc are vastly unexplored. How can an artist not have drive or ambition?

They just have an alien culture. One that has positives over others as well as negatives. What was that quote...Militant Islamic Borg is the best term just not all the negative stuff that goes along with it.

But that's exactly my point - an artist that is told "you can draw pretty, congrats you'll be an artist for the rest of your life" has neither drive, nor ambition. And he'll produce ****ty art.

[jabajack]

Lithuasil wrote...

jabajack wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

I do agree that i am not sure what Qunari society is striving for, they think they have acheived the best? However you can't just say Qunari are just like a society of ants and vermin. We know each member has emotions, desire etc and their culture, art, music etc are vastly unexplored. How can an artist not have drive or ambition?

They just have an alien culture. One that has positives over others as well as negatives. What was that quote...Militant Islamic Borg is the best term just not all the negative stuff that goes along with it.

But that's exactly my point - an artist that is told "you can draw pretty, congrats you'll be an artist for the rest of your life" has neither drive, nor ambition. And he'll produce ****ty art.

Perhaps, the idea of being assigned a certain role would depress and disillusion myself. The Qunari are just raised to accept that. The Arishok did mention that the Qunari are allowed to follow whatever path within that role, so maybe they aren't just restricted to him just painting and her just painting. "You have shown yourself to be the artsy type, so do whatever you want that is artsy". If you have grown up to accept that you could still view a sunset or something and produce something good

Modifié par jabajack, 21 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Dark Specie]

Foolsfolly wrote...
See, this is why they're so interesting. And why you would want to play a character that would become a Qunari. It's no different than wanting your Warden or Hawke to be a devote Chantry follower. It would have been cool to side with Qunari. Would everyone do it? No. Does everyone side with Mages or the Templars? No.

Interesting, but you know, if we played a Qunari and played him/her as if he/she didn't like/opposed the Qun, he/she'd be branded Tal'Vashoth and hunted down in an instant, whereas if you play a human/elf/dwarf who scorned the maker/the elven gods/his or hers ancestors, then at worst he/she'd only receive some scorn/disdain from those who believe...

Modifié par Dark Specie, 21 mars 2011 - 11:30 .

[Foolsfolly]

Lithuasil wrote...

On a different note - the whole "Putting society over individuals" thing - you know who does that? Ants. Vermin. Creatures with no sense of the self, that merely hope to sustain there populace, without any ambition, any feelings, any consciousness.

Please, dude.

Please.

Anyone can do that.

You know the whole individual over society thing? You know who else does that? Cows. Fat slothful creatures with no sense of honor. They eat and eat and only walk because they've eaten everything around them. They live without thought, sense, or consciousness; they live only to fill a void within them that they do not know they cannot fill.

If you want to talk about the Qunari beliefs or people or compare them to the Chantry, cool. But remarks like that belittle yourself as much as the thread.

[Medhia Nox]

Ants are a very successful species - and vermin (I assume you mean rice and rats) actually put OUR society over the individual. If our society collapsed - the vermin populations would return to their normal, natural levels.

I actually am not impressed with individualism. It breeds selfishness and apathy. Nearly all people in an individualistic society will put their family over others. They will steal, lie, and cheat , and kill- and justify it for the sake of doing right by their family.

The ultimate individual is a sociopath. He puts himself above all others. That is the end result of individualism.

We don't know enough about the Qunari - do they have artists? Festivals? Are they always dour individuals driven only by purpose? It would be a shame, because a purpose driven society is something I do appreciate.

And the notion that they're conquerors isn't really relevant. Nearly all nations upon the earth have made war against their neighbor. American colonials conquered 500 separate tribes of Native Americans to form the country that stands on their corpses. They were given an option to convert or die as well - perhaps the Qunari are more like colonial America than some American's would like to admit.

At any rate - I don't see a strong value in individualism that would make the Qunari despicable solely because they are more society oriented.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 mars 2011 - 11:30 .

[blothulfur]

Koslun tells us that the path to enlightenment is one part inspiration and ninety nine parts focus, master ones self and surely the mastery of your art must follow.

[Satyricon331]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
I like the Qunari because they have that confident assurance in who and what they are. There's no room for second-guessing, no gray areas, just complete and total conviction in their beliefs and way of life. It is a world where respect must be earned, where loyalty is absolute, and where honor abounds. [...] That's why I like the Qunari. 

That's exactly what makes them so uninteresting to me, but I can appreciate others disagree... and feel doomed to a future where Bioware explores them much more extensively.

[Hrodric]

In real life, there are plenty of religions whose beliefs I do not share; but some of the followers whom I have met have such upstanding behaviour (a.k.a. "Code") that I still have respect them--not because of, but, in spite of their religious beliefs.

I think some gamers have a similar feeling with regards of the qunari behaviour of 'saying what they mean, and meaning what they say.' In DA2, I didn't see the qunari playing 'games' or engage in double-deals (unlike the Thedasians). They were in Kirkwall only because their holy relic was stolen and kept somewhere in there--nothing more, nothing less.

The practice of the Qun is (or maybe considered) an affront to Thedasian (a.k.a. Western) ideals of individualism and self-determination. But, how much "freedom" can the Thedasians claim when they live under the weight of emperors, kings, princes, and other nobility? There are no free republics in Thedas (as far as I know), and the slave trade is still operating--where, then, is the illusive moral high ground from pro-Thedas camp?

Which is preferable, then? Being a slave (along with all your countrymen) to an idea (the Qun) or being a slave to a man (an emperor)?

[cglasgow]

jabajack wrote...

Perhaps, the idea of being assigned a certain role would depress and disillusion myself. The Qunari are just raised to accept that.

Y'know, if a system needs to brainwash people in order to work, perhaps the system has a problem.

PS: Ever heard this piece of incidental dialogue between Fenris and Isabela?  He's discussing why he wouldn't have turned over to the qunari.

Fenris: No, but I know what they do to their prisoners.
Isabela: Execute them horribly, I imagine.
Fenris: The Qunari waste nothing. They would reeducate you into a loyal follower of the Qun.
Isabela: Pfft. Could I refuse?
Fenris: There's always qamek, which turns you into a mindless laborer. Like I said, they waste nothing.
Isabela: Oh.
Fenris: If you wish to thank Hawke, he's standing right there.

I think we now know what role the Qun demands if you don't find yourself with a zealous aptitude for something.   They just give you their own equivalent of the Tranquil process and hey, instant work robot.

[cglasgow]

Hrodric wrote...

I think some gamers have a similar feeling with regards of the qunari behaviour of 'saying what they mean, and meaning what they say.' In DA2, I didn't see the qunari playing 'games' or engage in double-deals (unlike the Thedasians).

Um, are you just skipping over the part where the qunari constantly lied to the Viscount about why they were really in Kirkwall, and how long they were going to stay?

So much for 'say what you mean and mean what you say'.

[cglasgow]

Medhia Nox wrote...

We don't know enough about the Qunari - do they have artists? Festivals?

Actually, we do know how often they have festivals; Sten tells us in DA1 if you hit that dialogue option.

Basically, they only have a festival ever when someone is being raised to the qunari equivalent of sainthood.  Which means maybe once a generation, if that often.   And the 'festival' he described is something that happens every Friday night in a tavern (i.e., going out and getting drunk a little, hanging out with friends, blowing off steam)... only to the qunari, this is considered an unimaginably rare release from stoicism.

Yay.

Modifié par cglasgow, 21 mars 2011 - 11:37 .

[Lithuasil]

Medhia Nox wrote...
I actually am not impressed with individualism. It breeds selfishness and apathy. Nearly all people in an individualistic society will put their family over others. They will steal, lie, and cheat , and kill- and justify it for the sake of doing right by their family.

The ultimate individual is a sociopath. He puts himself above all others. That is the end result of individualism.

Speaking as someone rather close to this end of the scale - I have a hard time accepting the beliefs of the Qun - not as interesting or well written adversaries, that I passionately enjoy hating mind you, but moreso as the glorified creatures they sometimes seem to be depicted as - with the attributes assigned to them the clear opposite of what their path actually desires.

[Dark Specie]

Medhia Nox wrote...
We don't know enough about the Qunari - do they have artists? 

Sten implies that they do.

Medhia Nox wrote...
Festivals?

Only when someone is declared Qunoran Vehl, as far as we know of.

[Foolsfolly]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
I like the Qunari because they have that confident assurance in who and what they are. There's no room for second-guessing, no gray areas, just complete and total conviction in their beliefs and way of life. It is a world where respect must be earned, where loyalty is absolute, and where honor abounds. [...] That's why I like the Qunari. 

That's exactly what makes them so uninteresting to me, but I can appreciate others disagree... and feel doomed to a future where Bioware explores them much more extensively.

Any future DA property can only be made better by having a Qunari presence.

The same cannot be said about the Dalish.

[Zenstrive]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You are your full potential in the Qun.

If you're smart, then you're building weapons and helping with agriculture and city design. If you're strong you're leading troops into battle. If you have no real skills you're a laborer.

There are no fat rich nobles having wonderful parties while people in the streets starve. The Qunari is the nation that must be.

That's what makes them interesting. And while I don't want to join them, I understand the desire for that option. The Templars are led by zealots and the Mages are corrupt. The nobles do nothing and the Viscount's a coward. You play the extremely capable Hawke and if you joined the Qunari you would be a high ranking officer, easily. And all this nonsense about Templars and Chants and Mage rights would go away.

Unless you are a mage. Then why would you want to join the Qun? They probably wouldn't accept you anyway since you could be tainted.

The Qun idea is that of a locust: single unified body flying together toward a goal. Their unibody concept, however, is contradicted at very top: THE TRIUMVIRATE CONCEPT. But if you think of a body, what does a body essentially consists mainly of? The external body that do the works (The Shok and Shaad led by Arishok), the mind that thinks of the growth and problems (I guess the Arigena and his boys), and the soul that stabilizes the body and the mind (the Ariqun and her girls). So Mind, Body, and Soul, altogether governing a singly body.

And no, Mages are not unaccepted in Qunari society. A mage that is not willing to selflessly submit himself to a controller will be considered cancer. The one that is willing to do so will be highly regarded because it will be an act of ultimate selflessness: their powers in check, their spells strengthen the whole of The Qunary Body.

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

I think some gamers have a similar feeling with regards of the qunari behaviour of 'saying what they mean, and meaning what they say.' In DA2, I didn't see the qunari playing 'games' or engage in double-deals (unlike the Thedasians).

Um, are you just skipping over the part where the qunari constantly lied to the Viscount about why they were really in Kirkwall, and how long they were going to stay?

So much for 'say what you mean and mean what you say'.

You never hear a Qunari say they're waiting for a second ship. You hear humans say they've heard they're waiting for a second ship. The Viscount only says the Arishok's said one word to him in three years, "Begone."

[Caladors]

The appeal is a lot of what they aren't.
They are much based of Plato's ideal republic.
But in more real terms why people are attracted to them is...
The certainty of the Qun.
Lets face it unless your born into ideal circumstance a lot of our society is less than ideal.
And that is where much of there appeal comes from.
If you have ever been unemployed you can see the appeal of such a society.
You will never want for anything you will always have a job to do.

This infact is what causes much of the Arishock's depression.
He looks and sees a filthy city which he can do little about.
There appeal comes from the idea of community and automatic acceptance.
That is what I would say there appeal comes from.

[Foolsfolly]

Zenstrive wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

You are your full potential in the Qun.

If you're smart, then you're building weapons and helping with agriculture and city design. If you're strong you're leading troops into battle. If you have no real skills you're a laborer.

There are no fat rich nobles having wonderful parties while people in the streets starve. The Qunari is the nation that must be.

That's what makes them interesting. And while I don't want to join them, I understand the desire for that option. The Templars are led by zealots and the Mages are corrupt. The nobles do nothing and the Viscount's a coward. You play the extremely capable Hawke and if you joined the Qunari you would be a high ranking officer, easily. And all this nonsense about Templars and Chants and Mage rights would go away.

Unless you are a mage. Then why would you want to join the Qun? They probably wouldn't accept you anyway since you could be tainted.

The Qun idea is that of a locust: single unified body flying together toward a goal. Their unibody concept, however, is contradicted at very top: THE TRIUMVIRATE CONCEPT. But if you think of a body, what does a body essentially consists mainly of? The external body that do the works (The Shok and Shaad led by Arishok), the mind that thinks of the growth and problems (I guess the Arigena and his boys), and the soul that stabilizes the body and the mind (the Ariqun and her girls). So Mind, Body, and Soul, altogether governing a singly body.

And no, Mages are not unaccepted in Qunari society. A mage that is not willing to selflessly submit himself to a controller will be considered cancer. The one that is willing to do so will be highly regarded because it will be an act of ultimate selflessness: their powers in check, their spells strengthen the whole of The Qunary Body.

The Qunari are not locust. The Darkspawn are locust. They eat, defile, kill, and rape anything in their path until they're the only thing left.

The Qunari have artists, warriors, poets, philosophers, boat makers, smiths, construction workers. They're definately not locust.

[Noatz]

As a codex mentions, you've only seen the warriors of the Qunari and not the civilian components of their society.

But I understand your point. People just see the Qunari and think "hey they're cool I can has?" without really considering what it would mean to play one. A Tal'vashoth Qunari would be more interesting, or perhaps a Qunari who begins following the Qun and later leaves it.

I wouldn't however go so far as to deride all the ones who follow the Qun. Could be their race is more physiologically compelled to seek such systems of order, it doesn't necessarily indicate theye are weak willed; the Arishok could have just sat there waiting for the relic to fall into his lap after all. What you can say more conclusively is humans/elves/dwarves actively seeking to convert to the Qun could be accused of not wanting to think or make decisions for themselves. But such people exist anyway.

[Zenstrive]

cglasgow wrote...

Hrodric wrote...

I think some gamers have a similar feeling with regards of the qunari behaviour of 'saying what they mean, and meaning what they say.' In DA2, I didn't see the qunari playing 'games' or engage in double-deals (unlike the Thedasians).

Um, are you just skipping over the part where the qunari constantly lied to the Viscount about why they were really in Kirkwall, and how long they were going to stay?

So much for 'say what you mean and mean what you say'.

The Arishok says "We are still waiting for a ship to come."
it is not a lie. They ARE still waiting for a ship come to take them home. BUT the ship will come if they obtain the stolen relic. He is not even able to crush Kirkwall even if he wants to, to a point. Once the body thinks that they are threatened, they fight back. That's why The Arishok is not even killed by his own Stens for ransacking Kirkwall after the body got bit a little by the city.

[TJPags]

Oh, I don't know. I kind of like the way the Qun sounds, to a degree.

To me, it's not so much about "thinking is hard, makes your brain hurt, so just obey". It's about putting people where they do the most good - smart people think, less smart people obey. Good fighters fight, good leaders lead, good cleaners mop floors.

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

[Zenstrive]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Qunari are not locust. The Darkspawn are locust. They eat, defile, kill, and rape anything in their path until they're the only thing left.

The Qunari have artists, warriors, poets, philosophers, boat makers, smiths, construction workers. They're definately not locust.

Probably a locust analogy is not fully justified. But the Qunari teaching indeed originated from their Siddharta Gautama-like first teacher got inspired by a body of locust flying toward a goal together.

Probably a fully functional non-military obsessed communism is best applied to them.