647 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You never hear a Qunari say they're waiting for a second ship. You hear humans say they've heard they're waiting for a second ship. The Viscount only says the Arishok's said one word to him in three years, "Begone."

"Three years, the qunari still hadn't left.  The qunari insisted they were waiting for their ship, but some of us knew better." -- Varric, in the opening narration for Act 2.

Try again.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

The Arishock was a moron?  How do you come to that conclusion?

[cglasgow]

It took him six years to find a book. Given a description of the book and the thief, it would have taken Captain Aveline what, a month?  (I grant that Aveline gets a lot of lead time because she actually knows Isabela, but cripes, its not like Isabela's that hard to find.  Every two-bit thug and gossip like Lucky knows that she's in the Hanged Man every night.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

The Arishock was a moron?  How do you come to that conclusion?

I suppose saying "Every line and every action the guy ever said and made" would be a bit of cheap shot. In any case, launching a mass-suicide attack on a city he held no actual grudge against, and that served no actual goal, isn't the best battle-plan I've heard in my life.

[Satyricon331]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...
I like the Qunari because they have that confident assurance in who and what they are. There's no room for second-guessing, no gray areas, just complete and total conviction in their beliefs and way of life. It is a world where respect must be earned, where loyalty is absolute, and where honor abounds. [...] That's why I like the Qunari. 

That's exactly what makes them so uninteresting to me, but I can appreciate others disagree... and feel doomed to a future where Bioware explores them much more extensively.

Any future DA property can only be made better by having a Qunari presence.

The same cannot be said about the Dalish.

I don't see why you had to assert your opinion as truth; there's a certain lack of reflection and self-awareness there that is more than a little ironic.  The Dalish have so much narrative potential, both in their political developments and in exploring their magical lore, artifacts and history.  And none of the races are such that they could make any DA property only better; they could show up awkwardly in the narrative, for example.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 22 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[Zenstrive]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

Wll, the Arishok is a leader of fully buffed soldiers whose main jobs are to defend and attack. He doesn't need to be very smart, just very charismatic, patient, and know The Qun inside out to fully implement it as situation dictates.

When Kirkwall doesn't annoy the Body, he is patient and very thoughtful. When the body is losing its old muscles and gaining new ones and began to get annoyed by Kirkwall, he reacts. When the body is asked to cut some muscle off itself, he retaliates.

That's leadership as required by The Qun.

[TJPags]

cglasgow wrote...

It took him six years to find a book. Given a description of the book and the thief, it would have taken Captain Aveline what, a month?  (I grant that Aveline gets a lot of lead time because she actually knows Isabela, but cripes, its not like Isabela's that hard to find.  Every two-bit thug and gossip like Lucky knows that she's in the Hanged Man every night.)

Isabela didn't know where the book was, remember?  She had Lucky and guys like him looking for it.  Considering we're told most Qunari don't speak (whatever language they speak in Thedas) it's not like they can just go asking around.  And they can't exactly do that low key.

You're being pretty hard on them, considering Isabela HAD the book (she stole it, remember?) and it took HER 6 years to find it.

[Foolsfolly]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

The Arishok is the second most rational NPC in the game. Ironically, the second most rational NPC is the Revered Mother.

[Zenstrive]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

You never hear a Qunari say they're waiting for a second ship. You hear humans say they've heard they're waiting for a second ship. The Viscount only says the Arishok's said one word to him in three years, "Begone."

"Three years, the qunari still hadn't left.  The qunari insisted they were waiting for their ship, but some of us knew better." -- Varric, in the opening narration for Act 2.

Try again.

And you trust words of a man who loves embellishing a story ?

Try again.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

It helps keep morons out of leadership positions. That's a good thing.

If the Qun keeps morons away from leadership, how did the Arishok happen?

The Arishock was a moron?  How do you come to that conclusion?

I suppose saying "Every line and every action the guy ever said and made" would be a bit of cheap shot. In any case, launching a mass-suicide attack on a city he held no actual grudge against, and that served no actual goal, isn't the best battle-plan I've heard in my life.

Suicide attack?  He actually, you know, conquered the City - in hours, by the way - until Hawke showed up.

And let's face it - Kirkwall DID absolutely need someone to take charge of that place.

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

You never hear a Qunari say they're waiting for a second ship. You hear humans say they've heard they're waiting for a second ship. The Viscount only says the Arishok's said one word to him in three years, "Begone."

"Three years, the qunari still hadn't left.  The qunari insisted they were waiting for their ship, but some of us knew better." -- Varric, in the opening narration for Act 2.

Try again.

Varric's prone to exageration and out-right lies. And he's telling the story to his captor.

Oh, yeah. I pulled the Unreliable Narrator card on you. You still never hear a Qunari say they're waiting for a ship. Not once.

[cglasgow]

Zenstrive wrote...

And you trust words of a man who loves embellishing a story?

Since the game always tells us when he's lying to Seeker Cassandra, and when he's not?   Yes.  It's not like they don't put huge clear lampshading on when Varric is embellishing, as witness the whole 'Scarface' sequence, or the opening Champion thing.

If you're just going to ignore the game itself because the truth is inconvenient to your argument, you can go on without me.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:07 .

[Hrodric]

The Arishok was not as forthcoming as you would have preferred, Cg (besides, it would have made the story shorter =P ). But there is a difference between commission and omission.

The Arishok didn't lie--he didn't spill out his personal angst and sense of dishonour either.

As for the guard finding the relic? Aveline didn't have a clue about any of it until Isabela confesses to the group.

Let's hope the guard were able to wipe their arse better than they could guard the city.

[Xewaka]

The Qunari is an intriguing society concept. It's probably one of the most interesting parts of the Thedas Lore from a occidental culture perspective, as it is the most unfamiliar.
I mean, we all have a passing knowledge of how feudal society worked, how state city coalitions existed and whatnot. The Qun, however, is completely foreign to our perception, and thus more appealing.

[cglasgow]

Hrodric wrote...

As for the guard finding the relic? Aveline didn't have a clue about any of it until Isabela confesses to the group.

... of course not.   The necessary starting point would be knowing that a qunari relic had been stolen, and that the thief matches Isabela's description.

Which, y'know, would be totally handled if the Arishok had simply reported his missing property to the authorities.

Seriously.  Arishok sends a messenger to the viscount's office saying 'A Rivaini woman of thus-and-so took our sacred artifact.'  About two seconds after that message gets from Seneschal Bran to Aveline's office, you're going to hear Aveline shouting 'OH YOU STUPID PIRATE **** WHAT HAVE YOU DONE NOW?!?' all the way down on the Docks.

But up until the end of act 2, the qunari haven't even admitted that they're missing a relic in the first place, so how the hell can anyone suspect that Isabela's relic is also the qunari relic?

As for the whole 'but his pride!  but his honor!'... but nothing.   The qunari lied about why they were there and how long they intended to stay, and then had the gall to actually act surprised when people stopped treating them like refugees and started wondering if they were invaders.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

Suicide attack?  He actually, you know, conquered the City - in hours, by the way - until Hawke showed up.

And let's face it - Kirkwall DID absolutely need someone to take charge of that place.

Conquered? He ran up to the city hall. He had like what, several hundred eight foot tall elite soldiers, three years to plan it out and the best possible attack position - and got his ass kicked by a few people who lived there, and a valiant contingent amounting to "whatever mages and templars happened to be in the city for shopping that day". Before the templars in their garrison, and whatever city guard was not stationed in the keep could actually mobilize, the whole thing was already over. It is also clearly stated that he never actually planned to hold anything, he just went "rawr hulk smash nonbelievers after giving stupid speech". And got himself and every single one under his command killed. Didn't get the book though. What a great and wise leader he was, he'll be missed.

[Zenstrive]

cglasgow wrote...

Zenstrive wrote...

And you trust words of a man who loves embellishing a story?

Since the game always tells us when he's lying to Seeker Cassandra, and when he's not?   Yes.  It's not like they don't put huge clear lampshading on when Varric is embellishing, as witness the whole 'Scarface' sequence, or the opening Champion thing.

If you're just going to ignore the game itself because the truth is inconvenient to your argument, you can go on without me.

Thank you. You can go now.

[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

It took him six years to find a book. Given a description of the book and the thief, it would have taken Captain Aveline what, a month?  (I grant that Aveline gets a lot of lead time because she actually knows Isabela, but cripes, its not like Isabela's that hard to find.  Every two-bit thug and gossip like Lucky knows that she's in the Hanged Man every night.)

Actually, they found the book. The Qunari are at the warehous before you and Isabella show up. You slaughter them and the people who currently have the book. And then Isabella runs off with it which leads to the hundreds of deaths and outright war with the Qunari.

If Isabella didn't tell us to run after the book the Qunari would have taken it, killed who they thought were the theives and leave.

I may be mistaken about this....but I thought the book was what they were after. Did the Qunari have a discription of Isabella? Did they know her name? I don't even know if they would have cared about Isabella if she didn't show up in the warehouse (and if my Hawke didn't say that Isabella was the thief and she'd just run off with the book.)

What? She betrayed me first!

[Herakleia]

Foolsfolly wrote...
DA:O. The Landsmeet. The Revered Mother tells Loghain that the Royal army and/or City Guard cannot interfere with the holy right of a Templar. That proves that the Chantry is above the law.

In Kirkwall the most powerful person who's really running the city-state? Everyone says its Meredith not the Viscount. The Viscount cannot stop the Chantry aggression against the Qunari, an aggression that will only lead to war and the Viscount knows this. He laments this many times, but he has not the authority to reprimand the Templars.

The Chantry is an article of faith, they don't go out of their way to kill just any non-believer they meet. But they are the power of Thedas. No ruling party has the power to do anything against them and that's been there since the first game.

There is also the matter of the Exalted Marches that they're always going on about.  When push comes to shove the Chantry can be almost as warlike and authoritarian as the Qunari, it would seem. 

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Actually, they found the book.

... after years with their thumb up their butt.

Isabela can be excused for taking this long because one woman, who can't even officially mention that the book is missing without also confessing to grand theft, has a slight problem searching an entire city all by herself.

A guy with his own private army, OTOH, who could also have gotten the full cooperation of the Viscount(*) if he'd just asked for it, looks a lot friggin' dumber for taking that long.


(*) Seriously.  The Viscount's greatest wish was that the qunari would go away peacefully.  Tell him that 'They'll leave as soon as you find this book', and he'd turn the entire city upside down looking for it.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:16 .

[Xewaka]

Lithuasil wrote...
Conquered? He ran up to the city hall. He had like what, several hundred eight foot tall elite soldiers, three years to plan it out and the best possible attack position - and got his ass kicked by a few people who lived there, and a valiant contingent amounting to "whatever mages and templars happened to be in the city for shopping that day". Before the templars in their garrison, and whatever city guard was not stationed in the keep could actually mobilize, the whole thing was already over. It is also clearly stated that he never actually planned to hold anything, he just went "rawr hulk smash nonbelievers after giving stupid speech". And got himself and every single one under his command killed. Didn't get the book though. What a great and wise leader he was, he'll be missed.

They also happened to held prisoner a good chunk or Kirkwall's nobility in a fortified place, which gave them a good position to negotiate, should it come to that. It took a crack team of Kirkwall's elite fighters (including, but not limited to, the Templar Knight-Commander, the First Enchanter, the City Guard Captain, and the to-be Champion of Kirkwall) to infiltrate in the spot and twist the Qunari position of strenght.
Also, try to build up some relation with Isabela next time, for if you do, she returns and hands the relic to the Qunari. After which the Qunari leader was honorably defeated in single combat and the rest of his expedition left leaderless but with their mission accomplished.

[Hrodric]

cglasgow wrote...

... of course not.   The necessary starting point would be knowing that a qunari relic had been stolen, and that the thief matches Isabela's description.

Which, y'know, would be totally handled if the Arishok had simply reported his missing property to the authorities.

Seriously.  Arishok sends a messenger to the viscount's office saying 'A Rivaini woman of thus-and-so took our sacred artifact.'  About two seconds after that message gets from Seneschal Bran to Aveline's office, you're going to hear Aveline shouting 'OH YOU STUPID PIRATE **** WHAT HAVE YOU DONE NOW?!?' all the way down on the Docks.

But up until the end of act 2, the qunari haven't even admitted that they're missing a relic in the first place, so how the hell can anyone suspect that Isabela's relic is also the qunari relic?

As for the whole 'but his pride!  but his honor!'... but nothing.   The qunari lied about why they were there and how long they intended to stay, and then had the gall to actually act surprised when people stopped treating them like refugees and started wondering if they were invaders.

1. "Handled" how? Like the guard were handling the rapists amongst their group? Like the guard were handling the gangs prowling the city at night? Like the guard didn't even know how they were being set up by one of their very own? Are you sure you are talking about the Kirkwall Guard? Is there a DLC you are playing?

2. Would you show me any quotes of the Arishok stating his timetable to leave the city, please?

Modifié par Hrodric, 22 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Lithuasil]

Xewaka wrote...
They also happened to held prisoner a good chunk or Kirkwall's nobility in a fortified place, which gave them a good position to negotiate, should it come to that. It took a crack team of Kirkwall's elite fighters (including, but not limited to, the Templar Knight-Commander, the First Enchanter, the City Guard Captain, and the to-be Champion of Kirkwall) to infiltrate in the spot and twist the Qunari position of strenght.
Also, try to build up some relation with Isabela next time, for if you do, she returns and hands the relic to the Qunari. After which the Qunari leader was honorably defeated in single combat and the rest of his expedition left leaderless but with their mission accomplished.

In fact they held their position so well, their defenses were penetrated by... oh wait, a dozen humans. Against ALL the remaining Qunari.
And my single greatest regret in the playthrough where I was nice to Isabella was a lack of an "keep the book, we're going to kill all those idiots" option.

[Zenstrive]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Suicide attack?  He actually, you know, conquered the City - in hours, by the way - until Hawke showed up.

And let's face it - Kirkwall DID absolutely need someone to take charge of that place.

Conquered? He ran up to the city hall. He had like what, several hundred eight foot tall elite soldiers, three years to plan it out and the best possible attack position - and got his ass kicked by a few people who lived there, and a valiant contingent amounting to "whatever mages and templars happened to be in the city for shopping that day". Before the templars in their garrison, and whatever city guard was not stationed in the keep could actually mobilize, the whole thing was already over. It is also clearly stated that he never actually planned to hold anything, he just went "rawr hulk smash nonbelievers after giving stupid speech". And got himself and every single one under his command killed. Didn't get the book though. What a great and wise leader he was, he'll be missed.

Well, The Arishok doesn't have as much potions as Hawke or the willingness to run from his opponent time to time

But seriously, what can the Templars and The Guards do when they arrive, seeing that their strengths are in equal to the Qunari, if not less? What if some of the templars are still lyrium-hig?

It's up to Hawke and his merry band of adventurers (with big bags full of potions)  to save the day

[cglasgow]

Hrodric wrote...

2. Would you show me any quotes of the Arishok stating his timetable to leave the city, please?

Why, so you can call the game's own narrator a liar again?  You have your quote; if you want to keep living in denial, do it on your own time.