647 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Zenstrive wrote..

Well, The Arishok doesn't have as much potions as Hawke or the willingness to run from his opponent time to time

The guy spent more potions then I did. That said, I kindly refused the extremely honorable offer of an armored eight foot monster, to duel a five foot girl in a dress.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Suicide attack?  He actually, you know, conquered the City - in hours, by the way - until Hawke showed up.

And let's face it - Kirkwall DID absolutely need someone to take charge of that place.

Conquered? He ran up to the city hall. He had like what, several hundred eight foot tall elite soldiers, three years to plan it out and the best possible attack position - and got his ass kicked by a few people who lived there, and a valiant contingent amounting to "whatever mages and templars happened to be in the city for shopping that day". Before the templars in their garrison, and whatever city guard was not stationed in the keep could actually mobilize, the whole thing was already over. It is also clearly stated that he never actually planned to hold anything, he just went "rawr hulk smash nonbelievers after giving stupid speech". And got himself and every single one under his command killed. Didn't get the book though. What a great and wise leader he was, he'll be missed.

He got his ass kicked?  When was this, exactly?  When I strolled into the Viscounts Keep, he had pretty much every important citizen there as a hostage.  I didn't see anyone kicking his ass.

[Coous]

The Qun reminds me of Hinduism and it's caste system of defined families in places,and the peoples roles are set with also the order they're born within that family as well. The Qunari and the Qun are great stoic figures at time,while the Andrastians(?) are epicureans set to do as they wish. I like to look and compare the argument as Communistic vs Capitalistic(not in the literal sense,but in function)societies and none are ever right as both sides want to escape or join the other. Both eventually will force conversion to their ways eventually by military means.

[cglasgow]

TJPags wrote...

He got his ass kicked?  When was this, exactly?  When I strolled into the Viscounts Keep, he had pretty much every important citizen there as a hostage.

Does anybody really think that would have stopped Meredith?   Her and Orsino even have an argument about that right outside.

'We can't attack head-on, they have hostages!  We need a distraction!'
'Screw the hostages!  Acceptable losses!  BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!' (ok, that's a paraphrase.  )

Sure, if Hawke hadn't been there the nobles would all be dead, but the qunari weren't going anywhere regardless.   Meredith had the place surrounded and would have cheerfully set the entire building on fire if she'd had to.

I will grant that the Arishok had enough competence to leave a second force outside the building, so as to attack any besiegers in the rear... that's why Meredith lets Hawke go into the palace alone, because her and her templars have to turn around and hold the rear vs. the qunari counterattack.   However, she won that fight, witness her showing up just as you're finishing up.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:27 .

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

He got his ass kicked?  When was this, exactly?  When I strolled into the Viscounts Keep, he had pretty much every important citizen there as a hostage.  I didn't see anyone kicking his ass.

When I was finished there, according to npc's anyway, there's like three Qunari in the city alive. And I wouldn't exactly call that a successful outcome for a military operation that never had any purpose in the first place.

[TJPags]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

He got his ass kicked?  When was this, exactly?  When I strolled into the Viscounts Keep, he had pretty much every important citizen there as a hostage.  I didn't see anyone kicking his ass.

When I was finished there, according to npc's anyway, there's like three Qunari in the city alive. And I wouldn't exactly call that a successful outcome for a military operation that never had any purpose in the first place.

Well, once they lose their entire command structure, yea, it kind of turns bad.

They also left.  That was the deal you make, remember?  Kill him or give him Isabela and he leaves.  Whichever you choose, they're not longer fighting to conquer, they're just on their way out.

Or do you think none of them actually made it out alive?

[PantheraOnca]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Wow Lith i thought all Mage supports had broken brains . Glad to hear people are still sane. The chantry is a lot more reasonable than the qun.
Tell the arishock you hate everything they are and he gets all pissy tell Ethinil about your dislike of the chantry and she basically says to each your own and will still tell you about your family.

To be fair, talking to the arishok about the qun would be similar to dissing the chant in front of meredith. I think that would likely get you decapitated, lyrium sword or no.

The arishok is a military leader of his people, not a spiritual one. All his training and experience is with regard to war. Any other general education he received would have occured some time ago, and he would not be a specialist in spiritual or philosophical matters like the grand cleric is.

Gadarr wrote...

JamesX wrote...
That mage is not
some mindless slave - which is what that whole scene is about.  He
Choose to follow the Qun because he believe it to be correct.  Just as a
person can choose to kill himself if he finds out he carries a virus
that can kill millions.  Let say that person is wrong, he is only
carrying the common cold.  But as long as the person believed it, and
killed himself because he believed that his existence is a danger, it is
a courageous action.

Indeed. However, he never
stopped in order to think about whether this particular part of the Qun
is actually right or wrong. He accepts what the Qun states, namely that
mages in his situation need to die, no exceptions, individual
circumstances or whatever else that might reasonably come into
consideration elsewhere.

This, I believe, is cowardice in a very
fundamental manner. It's actually the excuse for some of the worst
crimes in history. 'Just following orders, abiding the law, ya know...' [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

How do you know he isn't thinking about it the entire time you are escorting him, the entire time sister petrice had him, and all the time he isn't casting spells?

The answer is you don't. You have no idea what he is thinking about, or that he hasn't done a thorough evaluation of himself and his situation. You assume that he hasn't had a thought of his own.

Why must his desire to end his life be a non-rational decision to you?

Maelora wrote...

They're pretty much the poster boys for Lawful Evil. 'Convert or die' at the heart of it.

Some people are strongly drawn to tyranny and submission, those who are especially weak, stupid or fearful.

Slow down there killer. You are making some pretty lengthy jumps to conclusions there, so congratulations on that.

You can be strong, intelligent, and brave and still not be a good leader.

You
seem to assume that you know that giving people no guidance will result
in the most good for society.  The logical conclusion of a completely
free society where no one submits to anything is one where people cannot
interact with one another because by doing so you impinge upon their
freedom to do everything by themselves or not follow someone else's
lead.

The moment you allow for someone to choose to follow someone else's guidance, you allow for the Qun.

I
think you're just especially weak-minded, ignorant, and afraid of
people being better at things than you because your mommy told you you
were her favorite (pissing people off is fun, no?).

cglasgow wrote...

jabajack wrote...

I still do not believe that 'Slavery' is the best term, yes you are a slave but not to a master but to an idea.

Oh, so its a cult.  That's so much better... wait.

The only difference between religion and cult is a matter of scale. There are some codex entries referring to the founding of the chantry that refer to the "andrastean cult" becomming the chantry.

[ZombiePowered]

The Qun is the ultimate example of society over individualism; there is no selfishness, because any that appears is stamped out and reforged into purpose for the entire society. It isn't mindlessness, it is purpose. People are given roles based on their strengths, on what they excel at, and then they pursue their role with a degree of certainty only possible when doubt does not exist. It cuts out all of the 'trying to find your own place in the world,' which typically just results in the squandering of people's lives. Each Qunari is better at their role than most people performing the same role in the Chantry lands, because they are one hundred percent committed to it.

Also note that the Qunari hold no disdain for people based on pointless things such as race; they do not care where you come from or what you look like, only your commitment to your duty matters. They are far more socially progressive than any nation in Thedas, where you are oppressed by class, race, etc. Their society simply cares about the advancement of the Qunari (who are not just the guys with horns, but anyone who follows the Qun) and the spread of their society. Doubt is replaced with certainty, chaos with order. It's quite admirable, really. As a society it is far superior to any other place in Thedas (hell, it is superior to most cultures in reality). The desire to not be part of the Qun is the result of selfishness, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it just doesn't benefit anyone but yourself.

I myself find reason to join the Qun, because it does give a greater, lasting purpose to everything, but at the same time nothing really gives you a feeling of supreme dominance and accomplishment like satisfying your own selfish desires.

[cglasgow]

PantheraOnca wrote...

The only difference between religion and cult is a matter of scale.

Not so much.

Cults have the symptom of trying to control every aspect of your life.  Religions set boundaries on your behavior, but they're comparatively broad ones, and you still have an actual range of choices inside.

or: my church tells me that stealing, lying, and certain forms of sex are wrong, and that I should take off one day in seven, and some other commandments.   

It does not, however, micromanage every detail of my life. Within the above limits I get to pick my own choice of career, my own schedule, my own spouse, and raise my own children, among other things.  Its the difference between obeying a few 'thou shalt nots' and joining the Heaven's Gate crowd.

Which I suppose could be a 'difference of scale', but the scale is in 'how much of my life does it want', not 'how many followers does it have'.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[Lithuasil]

TJPags wrote...

Well, once they lose their entire command structure, yea, it kind of turns bad.

They also left.  That was the deal you make, remember?  Kill him or give him Isabela and he leaves.  Whichever you choose, they're not longer fighting to conquer, they're just on their way out.

Or do you think none of them actually made it out alive?

By the time the roughly twenty humans that were defending the city at the time,  with almost all the military assets of the city sitting in the gallows, twiddling their thumbs, arrived at the keep, I was under the impression that were all Qunari left in the city. On the last playthrough, I didn't even recruit isabella. So no deals were made, I went in there, he heroically chalanged me, I told him to shove it, every Qunari in the room got killed.
Plus, the Tal Vashoth Npc in the hanged man pretty much tells you (or at least told me) all the Qunari in the city got killed. So essentially, guy achieved nothing but killing the Viscount, and a handfull of guardsmen and civilians, lost all his men, failed his mission horribly - as I said, a brilliant leader indeed. Considering during the battle for hightown, he only had a rough 15 Qunari for every human resisting him.

[PantheraOnca]

cglasgow wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

The only difference between religion and cult is a matter of scale.

Not so much.

Cults have the symptom of trying to control every aspect of your life.  Religions set boundaries on your behavior, but they're comparatively broad ones, and you still have an actual range of choices inside.

or: my church tells me that stealing, lying, and certain forms of sex are wrong, and that I should take off one day in seven, and some other commandments.   

It does not, however, micromanage every detail of my life. Within the above limits I get to pick my own choice of career, my own schedule, my own spouse, and raise my own children, among other things.  Its the difference between obeying a few 'thou shalt nots' and joining the Heaven's Gate crowd.

Which I suppose could be a 'difference of scale', but the scale is in 'how much of my life does it want', not 'how many followers does it have'.

Christianity was at one time considered a cult. Now that its popular its a religion. It actually wants to control a lot of the behavior you can exhibit. As far as we know, the Qun mandates you eat no particular foods nor bans any foods. This is an area that it does not seek to influence, that other belief structures do.

Telling you how you can have sex seems a little heavy handed to me. Telling you you can't have sex with a willing partner of the same sex, or a different sex without some ritual first seems pretty controlling.

I forget which one it is, but there is a book in the bible with a whole bunch of "do not do this" or "do that" it goes on for pages and pages. That sounds controlling to me.

I'm not saying that religion is wrong, just that the difference between what we call religion and what we call a cult is generally one of popularity.

[cglasgow]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Christianity was at one time considered a [...]

And the Earth was at one time considered to be flat, your point is?

(The relevance of that comment is thus; I am not interested in discussing historical fallacies about real-world religions, I am interested in discussing the difference between a religion that wants to dictate a basic code of ethics, and a religion that takes away every single choice you have except one: the choice of whether to conform or die.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[TJPags]

cglasgow wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Christianity was at one time considered a [...]

And the Earth was at one time considered to be flat, your point is?

His point, I believe, is that when a cult becomes popular and widespread enough, it magically turns into a religion.

[cglasgow]

TJPags wrote...

His point, I believe, is that when a cult becomes popular and widespread enough, it magically turns into a religion.

(Yahtzee) There's more to it than that.  (/Yahtzee)

As stated above, the real difference between a cult and a religion is not "how many followers does it have", but "how much of your personal life it wants to control".   'Cult' is a term with more meaning than a simple 'A religion that's not popular'.    (The actual term for 'religion with only a very few followers' is 'sect'.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[TJPags]

cglasgow wrote...

TJPags wrote...

His point, I believe, is that when a cult becomes popular and widespread enough, it magically turns into a religion.

(Yahtzee) There's more to it than that.  (/Yahtzee)

As stated above, the real difference between a cult and a religion is not "how many followers does it have", but "how much of your personal life it wants to control".   'Cult' is a term with more meaning than a simple 'A religion that's not popular'.    (The actual term for 'religion with only a very few followers' is 'sect'.)

I'll just note that a very popular religion, to which I was raised but turned my back on, was once a much more controlling religion than it is now.  In fact, it relaxed some of its stances because of declining membership and unpopularity with the control aspect.

And with that, I'll bow out.  I enjoy a good relgious debate, but this isn't the place.

[Hrodric]

cglasgow wrote...

Why, so you can call the game's own narrator a liar again?  You have your quote; if you want to keep living in denial, do it on your own time.

Why so defensive, mate? Also, feel free to provide the quote where I call the game's narrator a liar.

Back on Topic:
What is the appeal of the Qunari: they follow a code of ethics/morals down to a fault.

So, I would at least respect them while I strike every single last one of them down. =P

[PantheraOnca]

cglasgow wrote...

TJPags wrote...

His point, I believe, is that when a cult becomes popular and widespread enough, it magically turns into a religion.

(Yahtzee) There's more to it than that.  (/Yahtzee)

As stated above, the real difference between a cult and a religion is not "how many followers does it have", but "how much of your personal life it wants to control".   'Cult' is a term with more meaning than a simple 'A religion that's not popular'.    (The actual term for 'religion with only a very few followers' is 'sect'.)

What is the magical tipping point at which point a religion is not a cult? When it only wants to control 90% of your life? 80? 50? 30? 10? Why that point and not the next one? How do we determine what percentage of your life is mandated to be a certain way by your religion/cult?

From dictionary.com:
cult  1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. 7. the members of such a religion or sect. 8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

re·li·gion   1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 5. the practice of religious  beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice. 7. religions, Archaic . religious  rites. 8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.


Show me which definitions of religion the Qun violates that make it not one.


Editted because the copy/paste didnt quite work.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 22 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[ZombiePowered]

Lithuasil wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, once they lose their entire command structure, yea, it kind of turns bad.

They also left.  That was the deal you make, remember?  Kill him or give him Isabela and he leaves.  Whichever you choose, they're not longer fighting to conquer, they're just on their way out.

Or do you think none of them actually made it out alive?

By the time the roughly twenty humans that were defending the city at the time,  with almost all the military assets of the city sitting in the gallows, twiddling their thumbs, arrived at the keep, I was under the impression that were all Qunari left in the city. On the last playthrough, I didn't even recruit isabella. So no deals were made, I went in there, he heroically chalanged me, I told him to shove it, every Qunari in the room got killed.
Plus, the Tal Vashoth Npc in the hanged man pretty much tells you (or at least told me) all the Qunari in the city got killed. So essentially, guy achieved nothing but killing the Viscount, and a handfull of guardsmen and civilians, lost all his men, failed his mission horribly - as I said, a brilliant leader indeed. Considering during the battle for hightown, he only had a rough 15 Qunari for every human resisting him.

Don't forget that Varric is telling the story. He is not necessarily a reliable narrator (i.e. he may have embelished on the part about Hawke killing a hundred Qunari). Also, one of the few times we see the evidence of battle between city guard and qunari is in Hightown where one dead qunari is surrounded by about eight dead guards. I think the degree of fighting and human resistance is much larger than is represented in the player's experience.

[Dangerfoot]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

The only thing that really bothers me about the Qunari is that people in-game and out of it talk endlessly about Qunari nobility and honor. I'm sorry, but they are just as vile as (Dragon Age) humans. When I came to speak to the Arishok about the two convicts he'd let into his cult, he decided to ambush me with ranged forces while he looked on from his comfortable seat. Gee, doesn't sound like a badass, honorable leader to me.

They're a pack animals with some rules, none of which are honorable, just utilitarian.

He withstood 3 years of aggression from the Chantry and the people of Kirkwall. His holy relic was stolen, dozens of his people have been murdered, people under his command had their bodies multilated to leave a trail so more Qunari would die.

And now, this cowardly filth dares to walk up to him and demand to arrest Qunari.

That was the last straw. You do not ask demands of the Qun.

I was cowardly filth for walking up to him and seeing if he'd give them back, and then hearing him out while he told me why they were his? Huh. And regardless of the fact that nothing I did was cowardly, he still initiated a cowardly act by ambushing me. Even if he hadn't done such a cowardly thing, nothing he ever did was honorable or noble.

[Hrodric]

Lithuasil wrote...

Akron1983 wrote...

Worse than any servant or slave? Slaves and servants are bad people?

They are, in the sense that I sincerely doubt anyone in this forum would go "did you see those elven slaves who clean Danarius' toilets. Dude, those are totally badass".

That depends--were the slaves naked? Because that would totally be bad...*ahem* ass.

[staldore13]

while id never agree to it i actually see the point

its not cowardly, its agreeing to become part of something greater than yourself, a small piece of something big
working together on everything, to benefit everyone

at least thats my interpretation of it
me im not a people person, i dont work together with people, so id never join

[JedTed]

It's not too hard to understand why some would join the Qunari.  Take those elves who killed a guard just because he raped their sister, sound familiar?  The Qunari offering protection to those elves is not that different from Duncan recruiting the City Elf Warden to save you from prison.
 

[cglasgow]

And, on the topic of the qunari and their lack of honesty in international diplomacy, I just found some dialogue from Sten, back from DA1:

Alistair: So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the qunari one day.
Sten: My people do not negotiate.
Alistair: What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms.
Sten: They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it.
Alistair: And what is the difference between that and negotiating?
Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.
Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.
Sten: They do. The honor of the qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

So, sworn treaties are worthless to the qunari, and you'll break them as soon as its what you want to do anyway? Well, can't say we weren't warned!

[Emperor Iaius I]

This is why the Imperium knew better than to end the fighting with them. They grow stronger while Thedas grows divided. The Qun is the only thing more dangerous than the Chant.

[Dark Specie]

cglasgow wrote...
So, sworn treaties are worthless to the qunari, and you'll break them as soon as its what you want to do anyway? Well, can't say we weren't warned!

That may be a moot matter now though. See, with the Arishok having attacked Kirkwall, the Llomerryn Accord, which were signed at the end of the New Exalted marches against the Qunari, was in essence broken. So that means that the nations of Thedas will now watch the Qunari very carefully, as opposed to before that. Huh, funny thing, that. Before that event, most of Thedas felt safe that the Llomerryn Accord would prevent the Qunari from starting another war, while in reality, the Qunari have never felt bound by the treaty and were probably going to attack Thedas again sooner or later. But now, thanks to the Arishok, Thedas will be somewhat better prepared/ready to face an eventual second Qunari invasion. Assuming they can afford to do that with the mage/templar war raging on though...

Modifié par Dark Specie, 22 mars 2011 - 04:09 .