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[Foolsfolly]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Actually, they found the book.

... after years with their thumb up their butt.

Isabela can be excused for taking this long because one woman, who can't even officially mention that the book is missing without also confessing to grand theft, has a slight problem searching an entire city all by herself.

A guy with his own private army, OTOH, who could also have gotten the full cooperation of the Viscount(*) if he'd just asked for it, looks a lot friggin' dumber for taking that long.


(*) Seriously.  The Viscount's greatest wish was that the qunari would go away peacefully.  Tell him that 'They'll leave as soon as you find this book', and he'd turn the entire city upside down looking for it.

Don't pull the years it took. This is a huge flaw in the storyline. The reason they stole the book in the first place? According to Isabella it was to sell it to Tevinter. So the guys who have the book sit on it for 3 years without ever leaving the city to sell the book? In that same time two different Tevinter parties have come down to hunt Fenris. The slowest one-legged smuggler could have walked to Tevinter in that time. Instead they stay in the one city outside of Qunari held lands that has a Qunari army in it.

THAT bothered me the first time I played the game. You kinda have to shut your brain off for that whole mission and say that there was no 3 years of people searching for and not selling the book.

[cglasgow]

Dark Specie wrote...

That may be a moot matter now though.

Oh, it very likely is.  I was just bringing it up because of all the 'the qunari are totally honest.  they say what they mean and mean what they say!' stuff earlier.

And now we have Sten telling us that their international diplomacy is full of as much bull**** and backstabbing as anyone else's.  And they call it 'honor'!  Bah.

[JW the Great]

The idea that Qunari are an honourable, warrior race amuses me, because it's so clearly false. As mentioned above, the Qunari would break their word and lie (or at least deliberately mislead) to anyone who isn't also Qunari or that they don't respect - and the only people they respect are those with the strength of arms to command respect, like Hawke and the Warden.

The Qunari are more like petulant children given hulking, muscular bodies and imposing voice acting - they throw pointless tantrums when they don't get their way rather than compromising or negotiating, and like a petulant child, they can't be reasoned with - only impressed with the threat of discipline or force. The Arishok and his forces go on a killing spree because they lost their book; Sten goes on a killing spree before the opening of DA:O because he lost his sword. What were either of these actions supposed to accomplish? Neither would help get back the item in question, and none of the people killed were responsible for the item's loss. They just lash out at whoever's available.

I have more respect for the darkspawn - at least they haven't chosen to be how they are. They're just a mad dog that needs to be put down; the Qunari are thinking beings that have chosen to become the equivalent - trying to conquer everything that isn't them because differences are scary and threatening.

[Dangerfoot]

If there is a dev with some sense of decency, please don't make an entire game take place in Orlais or in an environment where the Qun is the governing force. I don't think I could take the eye-rolling badness of those two things in high doses.

[Dangerfoot]

JW the Great wrote...

The idea that Qunari are an honourable, warrior race amuses me, because it's so clearly false. As mentioned above, the Qunari would break their word and lie (or at least deliberately mislead) to anyone who isn't also Qunari or that they don't respect - and the only people they respect are those with the strength of arms to command respect, like Hawke and the Warden.

The Qunari are more like petulant children given hulking, muscular bodies and imposing voice acting - they throw pointless tantrums when they don't get their way rather than compromising or negotiating, and like a petulant child, they can't be reasoned with - only impressed with the threat of discipline or force. The Arishok and his forces go on a killing spree because they lost their book; Sten goes on a killing spree before the opening of DA:O because he lost his sword. What were either of these actions supposed to accomplish? Neither would help get back the item in question, and none of the people killed were responsible for the item's loss. They just lash out at whoever's available.

I have more respect for the darkspawn - at least they haven't chosen to be how they are. They're just a mad dog that needs to be put down; the Qunari are thinking beings that have chosen to become the equivalent - trying to conquer everything that isn't them because differences are scary and threatening.

I want to give you a high five for this. Please slap your monitor.

[Foolsfolly]

JW the Great wrote...

The idea that Qunari are an honourable, warrior race amuses me, because it's so clearly false. As mentioned above, the Qunari would break their word and lie (or at least deliberately mislead) to anyone who isn't also Qunari or that they don't respect - and the only people they respect are those with the strength of arms to command respect, like Hawke and the Warden.

The Qunari are more like petulant children given hulking, muscular bodies and imposing voice acting - they throw pointless tantrums when they don't get their way rather than compromising or negotiating, and like a petulant child, they can't be reasoned with - only impressed with the threat of discipline or force. The Arishok and his forces go on a killing spree because they lost their book; Sten goes on a killing spree before the opening of DA:O because he lost his sword. What were either of these actions supposed to accomplish? Neither would help get back the item in question, and none of the people killed were responsible for the item's loss. They just lash out at whoever's available.

I have more respect for the darkspawn - at least they haven't chosen to be how they are. They're just a mad dog that needs to be put down; the Qunari are thinking beings that have chosen to become the equivalent - trying to conquer everything that isn't them because differences are scary and threatening.

Yeah, no other race, nation, or religion lies to others. It's not like humans don't kill off their own king and start a civil war, or have a whole order of bards who only spread lies and poison. Only qunari lie.

And the reasoning for the lie is so evil too. If he told the town full of zealots who are killing his kind left and right that one of their most holy relics is somewhere in the city there's no way those zealots would find it and publically destroy it. I mean, they're zealots. That means they're trustworthy, he should totally tell everyone that something that's more important than the Arishok's life itself is somewhere in the city.

And AGAIN they did send a delegation to Viscount for peace, the Viscount said they were civil and understanding. And then those same zealots kidnapped them and brutually murdered them.

The Qunari are not children. They are more responsible than anyone else in Kirkwall. This whole mage revolt and abuse of power by the Templars would never happen under the Qun. It's not efficent or orderly.

And you can't respect the darkspawn, they're mindless thralls who kill for no reason.

Let's all hate the Qunari because they're the best part of a meh game! I'm so cool for hating the univerisally best thing about the game!

[drake546]

The Qunari are honorable. Honor doesn't mean aggreeing with *you.*

Honor is having a code, and following it to the end of the line. As far as I've seen, the only groups that have consistently shown that honor are the Grey wardens, the Qunari, and the Darkspawn.

Nobody else ever lives up to the code they claim. The templars consistently break their own rules, the mages turn to blood magic whenever things get tough, the Chantry is a sham.

The Qunari have their own code. It hasn't been completly explained as far as I know, but its pretty apparent that they stick with it, or else they're not Qunari anymore. The mage you "help" sticks to the Qun to the point of incinerating himself. In my book that pretty much defines honor.

Good and evil are just words made by men to define their world into "that which i agree with and that which i do not."

[maegi46]

* The Qunari have been nicknamed “militant Islamic Borg” by Lead Writer David Gaider.

Note: This is not in reference to specific religious beliefs, but to qunari relations with other races and the political structure of Thedas.

[Foolsfolly]

maegi46 wrote...

* The Qunari have been nicknamed “militant Islamic Borg” by Lead Writer David Gaider.

Note: This is not in reference to specific religious beliefs, but to qunari relations with other races and the political structure of Thedas.

What are you saying, maegi?

....you saying you didn't like the borg? They were epic, sir. Epic. Without them there wouldn't be a good Next Gen movie.

[Dark Specie]

cglasgow wrote...

Dark Specie wrote...

That may be a moot matter now though.

Oh, it very likely is.  I was just bringing it up because of all the 'the qunari are totally honest.  they say what they mean and mean what they say!' stuff earlier.

And now we have Sten telling us that their international diplomacy is full of as much bull**** and backstabbing as anyone else's.  And they call it 'honor'!  Bah.

It's "Geth don't infiltrate" all over again

Seriously though, as others have said, the Qunari only believe in their own honor, which is something that most of the rest of Thedas hasn't truly grasped...

[Mox Ruuga]

Some have mentioned that the devs are clearly pointing out that the Qun is a "Lawful Evil" creed.

Unfortunately not. I think whomever came up with the Qun and fleshed it out actually finds the concept neat and worthwhile, and is "pushing for" it in the game. Witness how the deck is constantly stacked in favor of the Arishok to make him appear righteous, and how the characters written as "good" and "reasonable" are not in opposition to it. The Chantry and the "bigoted" people of Kirkwall are the ones committing provocations, whereas the Arishok is shown "honorably" brooding like a frustrated warrior that is being bothered by fanatics and politicians.

I won't even start with the fantastic success the way of Qun seems to have in the world, whereas its real life equivalents were responsible for the archipelago of Gulags, holodomors, and general mass repression.

I think someone in the writing team fancies this sort of stuff, and is using the game to air his/her views on the "ultimate" society. Otherwise the portrayal of Qun would be more multi faceted, like how the Andrastian and Dwarven societies are shown to be with good and bad qualities. The Dalish are another somewhat idealized portrayal, but at least they aren't shown to be wildly successful in the face of all Earth logic.

The fanboys pick up on this sort of Mary Suetopia writing, and respond to it. Especially if the spokesman is depicted as a eight foot tall muscular alpha male, who has an deeply masculine articulate voice and a sword and an axe.

[cglasgow]

drake546 wrote...

The Qunari are honorable. Honor doesn't mean agreeing with *you.*

Way to completely miss the point.

The qunari are not being hated on because they're disagreeing.  They're being hated on because they're big fat liars.   They signed a treaty that they fully intend to break whenever they feel like it.

Whatever happened to the 'keep your promises' part of honor?   Ignored, because inconvenient?   

The qunari may be dutiful to their own Qun -- the one sin nobody's accused them of so far is insincerity.  However, their regard for anything non-Qun appears to be borderline sociopathic.   We're not worth being honest with, we're not worth being dealt with in good faith, we're not even given any basic worth of our lives.   The Arishok allows a neighborhood full of humans to be nerve-gassed to death simply because its more convenient for him to arrange things that way.  He's totally indifferent to the loss of life involved... because none of the nerve-gassed people were Qun.

But at the same time he's angry because a couple of his security guards were killed by the extremists.  Even though he ordered them to their deaths to make his trap look more convincing.  But then again, those dead guys were Qun.  So they're actually worth something to the Arishok, as opposed to that block full of zeros who got gassed.

Good lord, even the word 'bas' merely means 'thing' in qunari.   Non-qun are objects to them, not people.   Worth only even the most basic consideration if they submit to the Qun.

That's pretty much the absolute height of intolerance and ethnocentricism on Thedas.  That it's not race-based but instead religion-based is no moral improvement.

And hey!  At least Legion admits that geth don't intentionally infiltrate!  Let's all lay off our adorable little lawful good philosopher killbot, shall we?  After all, he believes that freedom is the right of all sentient beings.  

(No, seriously.  Translate his speech about a species' right to self-determinate, and you end up with Optimus Prime.  Go Legion.)

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[Zenstrive]

maegi46 wrote...

* The Qunari have been nicknamed “militant Islamic Borg” by Lead Writer David Gaider. 

then David Gaider needs a hard spanking. Islamic Borg is an oxymoron.

[Foolsfolly]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Some have mentioned that the devs are clearly pointing out that the Qun is a "Lawful Evil" creed.

Unfortunately not. I think whomever came up with the Qun and fleshed it out actually finds the concept neat and worthwhile, and is "pushing for" it in the game. Witness how the deck is constantly stacked in favor of the Arishok to make him appear righteous, and how the characters written as "good" and "reasonable" are not in opposition to it. The Chantry and the "bigoted" people of Kirkwall are the ones committing provocations, whereas the Arishok is shown "honorably" brooding like a frustrated warrior that is being bothered by fanatics and politicians.

I won't even start with the fantastic success the way of Qun seems to have in the world, whereas its real life equivalents were responsible for the archipelago of Gulags, holodomors, and general mass repression.

I think someone in the writing team fancies this sort of stuff, and is using the game to air his/her views on the "ultimate" society. Otherwise the portrayal of Qun would be more multi faceted, like how the Andrastian and Dwarven societies are shown to be with good and bad qualities. The Dalish are another somewhat idealized portrayal, but at least they aren't shown to be wildly successful in the face of all Earth logic.

The fanboys pick up on this sort of Mary Suetopia writing, and respond to it. Especially if the spokesman is depicted as a eight foot tall muscular alpha male, who has an deeply masculine articulate voice and a sword and an axe.

It's not stack in the Qunari favor. The Revered Mother is a good person who's keeping peace between the Mages and Templar and who is championing peaceful relations with the qunari. She's completely honest and wants the best for everyone. The people who pretend to speak for her are the zealots.

Patrice and Isabella are the villains of Act 2. Patrice is down-right evil and Isabella's selfishness caused the whole war in the first place. And when the thing could have been defused Isabella runs off with the relic again which leads directly to the deaths of hundreds.

The Arishok, Viscount, and Revered Mother were all reasonable people and they all died. So...what's that say about Dragon Age 2?

It's depressing, is that answer. No one good (Bethany, your mom) goes unpunished for being decent people.

[Noatz]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Some have mentioned that the devs are clearly pointing out that the Qun is a "Lawful Evil" creed.

Unfortunately not. I think whomever came up with the Qun and fleshed it out actually finds the concept neat and worthwhile, and is "pushing for" it in the game. Witness how the deck is constantly stacked in favor of the Arishok to make him appear righteous, and how the characters written as "good" and "reasonable" are not in opposition to it. The Chantry and the "bigoted" people of Kirkwall are the ones committing provocations, whereas the Arishok is shown "honorably" brooding like a frustrated warrior that is being bothered by fanatics and politicians.

I won't even start with the fantastic success the way of Qun seems to have in the world, whereas its real life equivalents were responsible for the archipelago of Gulags, holodomors, and general mass repression.

I think someone in the writing team fancies this sort of stuff, and is using the game to air his/her views on the "ultimate" society. Otherwise the portrayal of Qun would be more multi faceted, like how the Andrastian and Dwarven societies are shown to be with good and bad qualities. The Dalish are another somewhat idealized portrayal, but at least they aren't shown to be wildly successful in the face of all Earth logic.

The fanboys pick up on this sort of Mary Suetopia writing, and respond to it. Especially if the spokesman is depicted as a eight foot tall muscular alpha male, who has an deeply masculine articulate voice and a sword and an axe.

This is a public health announcement. "Mary Sue throwaway phrase" grade contaminants have been detected in the vicinity. All forum goers are requested to vacate the affected thread and report to quarantine.

[Foolsfolly]

Also the Qunari have a big negative.

It's a totalitarian state without any kind of freedoms.

Why, oh why, can you people not understand "I love the Qunari. They're so cool and interesting but I would not want to live as one." Why do you hear "The Qunari are great. The Arishok is honorable," and jump to thinking we're saying all the other races and nations in Thedas should be conquered.

I think I'm done with this thread. It's not about explaining why people like the Qunari it's all about bashing them about anything possible.

I mean here's a post from this page:

The idea that Qunari are an honourable, warrior race amuses me, because it's so clearly false. As mentioned above, the Qunari would break their word and lie (or at least deliberately mislead) to anyone who isn't also Qunari or that they don't respect - and the only people they respect are those with the strength of arms to command respect, like Hawke and the Warden.

Talking about how the whole reason the Qunari are bad is because of something Sten said in the first game. That's reaching to find things to hate about the Qunari.

In DA2 they were the coolest, most interesting, freshest well-thought out concept in the whole game. Everything about them clicked and I want to see more of them.

I don't think I could say that about another DA game whose focus was on Mages/Templar. They're just not as interesting any more since they devolved to both sides being corrupt and wrong.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The flaw with the op's argument is that it presupposes that individualism is desirable or even relevant, or that it should be held as a universal truth (if it's even possible).

The Qunari have a completely different perspective. They view society as organic and individuals in it as nothing more than cells. For them, saying that the Qunari are weak willed to perform their function is like saying cells are weak for performing theirs. And even if they are, if that creates a strong society as a result, why should it matter? The "weak willed" Qunari are the most advanced in technology. Not only in explosives, but also at least in optics (as per Awakening). And they might have a better functionning society than what we have seen in say Kirkwall (we must not forget that our only interaction with Qunari so far has been with the military, who might not be well versed or even "designed" to teach the Qun properly). They certainly seem to have a healthy political system, if the Arishok, the commander of the Qunari military, is held accountable like anyone else. We take things like that fro granted, but it's immensely difficult to establish norms, customs and institutions to pull that off.

I personally am somewhat of an individualist, who highly values merit and ambition. So I obviously do not agree entirely with the Qun. However I am not arrogant / naive enough to say that my views are a universal truth and that those who do not fit in my ideals are necessarily "weak". Of course the Qunari are guilty of doing just that. I reject both the op and the Qunari way of presenting their arguments.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zenstrive wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

* The Qunari have been nicknamed “militant Islamic Borg” by Lead Writer David Gaider. 

then David Gaider needs a hard spanking. Islamic Borg is an oxymoron.

Indeed. But orientalism is still flooding in people's veins and everything "Islamic" is seen as alien and of course threatening. The Qunari are meant to be that.

[cglasgow]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why, oh why, can you people not understand "I love the Qunari. They're so cool and interesting but I would not want to live as one." Why do you hear "The Qunari are great. The Arishok is honorable," and jump to thinking we're saying all the other races and nations in Thedas should be conquered.

Well, probably because at the same time qunari fans are saying all that, there's also commentary in the thread about how all the human nations of Thedas are corrupt and medieval and rotten, and there's also commentary about how the Viscount had it coming.

So, 'the qunari are so cool and honorable' plus 'humans suck' plus 'the qunari were justified in attacking' all comes across with the general message of 'the Qun rules, and humans drool!'  Which is why some of us are saying 'Oh, like hell it does!'

If you don't want to wear the shoe, stop having it fit.

Modifié par cglasgow, 22 mars 2011 - 08:43 .

[WidowMaker9394]

I thought the Qun was all about honor and responsibility within ones role.

[jmcconnell]

I guess my only question would be what are we comparing the Qunari to?

Would I trade our own society, or that of another modern liberal democracy for that of the Qun? absolutely not. I kind of like my freedom, historically high amounts of social mobility, widespread public education, impartial court system and rule of law, etc. etc.

However, thats not really the choice presented by the societies of Thedas at the time of Dragon Age. Most are largely feudal monarchies, slavery based empires, or nobility run city states. They're not cities upon a hill, beacons of freedom and democracy. There's no statue of liberty awaiting the huddled masses of Fereldan, just the choke-damp of darktown. In historical fedalistic societies any mention of 'freedom' was in general a sham, reserved primarily for nobility and a small subsection of wealthy bourgeoisie merchant classes. Essentially, the lucky sperm club that happened to be born to wealthy parents. The magna carta in England was not a document that applied to the masses of serfs held as chattle by landowners. Heck, the US constitution didn't apply to the 50% of the population of southern states held in slavery. I would say that any fair assessment of the Qunari must start with an honest accounting of what you can actually compare them to, and that does not include the relatively recent development of free, modern, pluralistic, meritocratic, democracies that most of us live in and love. Fereldan is not the United States, its medieval england, the Free marches are not modern Switzerland, they're the German city states, Orlais is not the French Fifth republic, its France under Louis the XVI. These were not places where you would want to live as anyone other than a nobleman or very wealthy merchant.

Using those societies as a baseline the Qun compares quite a bit more favorably, especially for those not lucky enough to part of the lucky sperm club. Honestly, if you asked me if I'd rather be born as a peasant serf in Fereldan or as a member of the Qun I would probably take the Qun. At least under the Qun I would probably be guaranteed enough food for my family, meritocratic reward for inherent skills and intelligence, and some assurance that my feudal lord couldn't beat me and rape my daughter and wife with no repercussions. Ask me if I'd rather be an elf in one of the alienages or a slave in the empire and the answer becomes even easier.

Yes, you give up some freedoms in the Qun. But those freedoms didn't really exist in the first place for most people in the societies were talking about. There was no such thing as social mobility. There was no such thing as widely available public education. There was no such thing as equitable systems of justice, or property rights that applied to anyone other than nobility. Its not like a medieval serf could rise through good hard work and determination to be master of his destiny. (I know, I know, thats the story of the main character, but I would say its the exception that proves the rule, and it also helps to have god, aka, the developers of dragon age, gunning for you). You were born as a serf, you lived as a serf, you died as a serf. Happen to be a good artist, tough ****, you're a serf. Although you would probably never even know if you were a good artist because, once again, you're a serf and serfs don't usually get art class in their suburban high school. At least in the Qun a good artist born to worker could be an artist, and may even have the chance to find out if hes a good artist. No real freedom in either society, at least not for the vast majority of people, but if I have to choose between the two I'd choose the society without freedom that rewarded skill, rather than the society without freedom that rewarded those lucky enough to be born to rich parents.

Once again, not saying that I think the Qunari are any kind of ideal society, not in the slightest. Its a completely rigid culture that allow no freedom of expression or individuality. Compare that to what we have available to us as a consequence of modern culture and its not a contest. But to be really fair thats not a comparison thats really available in the world of dragon age. There is no modern democracy in the world of Thedas, because, news flash, its not set in the modern world. Its set in a quasi medieval world, and if you really think you wouldn't consider trading what was available for the broad swath of humanity in those times under despotic rulers and feudal lords for whats offered by the Qun, you either need to read a few more history books or get your head examined.

Modifié par jmcconnell, 22 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[TobiTobsen]

jmcconnell wrote...

I guess my only question would be what are we comparing the Qunari to?

Would I trade our own society, or that of another modern liberal democracy for that of the Qun? absolutely not. I kind of like my freedom, historically high amounts of social mobility, widespread public education, impartial court system and rule of law, etc. etc.

However, thats not really the choice presented by the societies of Thedas at the time of Dragon Age. Most are largely feudal monarchies, slavery based empires, or nobility run city states. They're not cities upon a hill, beacons of freedom and democracy. There's no statue of liberty awaiting the huddled masses of Fereldan, just the choke-damp of darktown. In historical fedalistic societies any mention of 'freedom' was in general a sham, reserved primarily for nobility and a small subsection of wealthy bourgeoisie merchant classes. Essentially, the lucky sperm club that happened to be born to wealthy parents. The magna carta in England was not a document that applied to the masses of serfs held as chattle by landowners. Heck, the US constitution didn't apply to the 50% of the population of southern states held in slavery. I would say that any fair assessment of the Qunari must start with an honest accounting of what you can actually compare them to, and that does not include the relatively recent development of free, modern, pluralistic, meritocratic, democracies that most of us live in and love. Fereldan is not the United States, its medieval england, the Free marches are not modern Switzerland, they're the German city states, Orlais is not the French Fifth republic, its France under Louis the XVI. These were not places where you would want to live as anyone other than a nobleman or very wealthy merchant.

Using those societies as a baseline the Qun compares quite a bit more favorably, especially for those not lucky enough to part of the lucky sperm club. Honestly, if you asked me if I'd rather be born as a peasant serf in Fereldan or as a member of the Qun I would probably take the Qun. At least under the Qun I would probably be guaranteed enough food for my family, meritocratic reward for inherent skills and intelligence, and some assurance that my feudal lord couldn't beat me and rape my daughter and wife with no repercussions. Ask me if I'd rather be an elf in one of the alienages or a slave in the empire and the answer becomes even easier.

Yes, you give up some freedoms in the Qun. But those freedoms didn't really exist in the first place for most people in the societies were talking about. There was no such thing as social mobility. There was no such thing as widely available public education. There was no such thing as equitable systems of justice, or property rights that applied to anyone other than nobility. Its not like a medieval serf could rise through good hard work and determination to be master of his destiny. (I know, I know, thats the story of the main character, but I would say its the exception that proves the rule, and it also helps to have god, aka, the developers of dragon age, gunning for you). You were born as a serf, you lived as a serf, you died as a serf. Happen to be a good artist, tough ****, you're a serf. Although you would probably never even know if you were a good artist because, once again, you're a serf and serfs don't usually get art class in their suburban high school. At least in the Qun a good artist born to worker could be an artist, and may even have the chance to find out if hes a good artist. No real freedom in either society, at least not for the vast majority of people, but if I have to choose between the two I'd choose the society without freedom that rewarded skill, rather than the society without freedom that rewarded those lucky enough to be born to rich parents.

Once again, not saying that I think the Qunari are any kind of ideal society, not in the slightest. Its a completely rigid culture that allow no freedom of expression or individuality. Compare that to what we have available to us as a consequence of modern culture and its not a contest. But to be really fair thats not a comparison thats really available in the world of dragon age. There is no modern democracy in the world of Thedas, because, news flash, its not set in the modern world. Its set in a quasi medieval world, and if you really think you wouldn't consider trading what was available for the broad swath of humanity in those times under despotic rulers and feudal lords for whats offered by the Qun, you either need to read a few more history books or get your head examined.

QFT

[Danjaru]

It's simple really.. They're the obligatory stoic warrior race that we see in almost all fictional worlds or games.. They're bound to get a fanbase.

[PickledGear]

I myself have no quarrel with the Qunari, they're society is an excellent machine compared to the rest of Thedas. The only reason I don't like the qunari is just like what others have pointed out. They see non qunari as just... things. Even worse they despise those who leave their way of life. Now that doesn't go for converts.
Seeing as most converts had lived the life of those that don't follow the qun they have sympathy for them. While those who are true qunari, the ones with the horns and all see themselves higher then those who don't follow the qun. They have no respect or patience for those who don't follow.

While the chantry isn't the beacon of hope either. At least most who do help preach for the chantry are kind and are willing to give aid. And yet most people still do what we do today. We put the small few who associate themselves with a larger group and who do wrong as the main example of the entire group! Such as islamic extremists made the ill informed believe all muslims are extremists and violent which isn't so. But it is very apparent many think the chantry in that way.

But what most don't realize is that even in today society most who take leadership roles have some sort of personality disorder and most being narcisitic, sociopathic or histrionic. And thus those who lead a religion such as Knight commander Meredith will put a bad name for the whole group because people set a huge picture from a leader. And yet the only sane person other then Hawke who could've successfully stopped what was bound to happen at the circle was Grand Cleric Elthina. Who is the major religious leader in the city of Kirkwall. BUT! we put her aside and place Meredith as the Chantry's leader. And since she went mad and called for the right of annulment we instantly think all andrastians wanted blood. Thats what she said (not a joke). If I was an andrastian I know I would just want the individual or group who worked together to blow up the chantry punished not the whole group that is in only 1 way similar to the perpetrator. But thats just me. (Sebastian even though a devout andrastian only wanted Anders killed for what he did.)

And also another perfect example is Cullen who under orders followed (look up Zimbardo in psychology on how even though we have our own ideals of right and wrong, under orders will do anything seeing as it is orders) but Cullen finally knew that what was going on was wrong.

And theres how the qun spreads itself. Originally just like any of the monotheistic religions today and the chantry. The only way it is spread is by conquest and force. The chantry did it back in the beginning ages but once things were reformed the method of spreading it changed. Look at how the chantry started in Orzammar- With a small building and if people were curious they could attend a meeting to see if they are interested.
While the qunari had an accidental way of doing something similar in Kirkwall they didn't care they were out for the relic and if people were interested let them join. But still it seems during the Dragon Age when the qunari want to expand their idealism they do it with force and not with... missions.

[Lithuasil]

jmcconnell wrote...

I guess my only question would be what are we comparing the Qunari to?

Would I trade our own society, or that of another modern liberal democracy for that of the Qun? absolutely not. I kind of like my freedom, historically high amounts of social mobility, widespread public education, impartial court system and rule of law, etc. etc.

However, thats not really the choice presented by the societies of Thedas at the time of Dragon Age. Most are largely feudal monarchies, slavery based empires, or nobility run city states. They're not cities upon a hill, beacons of freedom and democracy. There's no statue of liberty awaiting the huddled masses of Fereldan, just the choke-damp of darktown. In historical fedalistic societies any mention of 'freedom' was in general a sham, reserved primarily for nobility and a small subsection of wealthy bourgeoisie merchant classes. Essentially, the lucky sperm club that happened to be born to wealthy parents. The magna carta in England was not a document that applied to the masses of serfs held as chattle by landowners. Heck, the US constitution didn't apply to the 50% of the population of southern states held in slavery. I would say that any fair assessment of the Qunari must start with an honest accounting of what you can actually compare them to, and that does not include the relatively recent development of free, modern, pluralistic, meritocratic, democracies that most of us live in and love. Fereldan is not the United States, its medieval england, the Free marches are not modern Switzerland, they're the German city states, Orlais is not the French Fifth republic, its France under Louis the XVI. These were not places where you would want to live as anyone other than a nobleman or very wealthy merchant.

Using those societies as a baseline the Qun compares quite a bit more favorably, especially for those not lucky enough to part of the lucky sperm club. Honestly, if you asked me if I'd rather be born as a peasant serf in Fereldan or as a member of the Qun I would probably take the Qun. At least under the Qun I would probably be guaranteed enough food for my family, meritocratic reward for inherent skills and intelligence, and some assurance that my feudal lord couldn't beat me and rape my daughter and wife with no repercussions. Ask me if I'd rather be an elf in one of the alienages or a slave in the empire and the answer becomes even easier.

Yes, you give up some freedoms in the Qun. But those freedoms didn't really exist in the first place for most people in the societies were talking about. There was no such thing as social mobility. There was no such thing as widely available public education. There was no such thing as equitable systems of justice, or property rights that applied to anyone other than nobility. Its not like a medieval serf could rise through good hard work and determination to be master of his destiny. (I know, I know, thats the story of the main character, but I would say its the exception that proves the rule, and it also helps to have god, aka, the developers of dragon age, gunning for you). You were born as a serf, you lived as a serf, you died as a serf. Happen to be a good artist, tough ****, you're a serf. Although you would probably never even know if you were a good artist because, once again, you're a serf and serfs don't usually get art class in their suburban high school. At least in the Qun a good artist born to worker could be an artist, and may even have the chance to find out if hes a good artist. No real freedom in either society, at least not for the vast majority of people, but if I have to choose between the two I'd choose the society without freedom that rewarded skill, rather than the society without freedom that rewarded those lucky enough to be born to rich parents.

Once again, not saying that I think the Qunari are any kind of ideal society, not in the slightest. Its a completely rigid culture that allow no freedom of expression or individuality. Compare that to what we have available to us as a consequence of modern culture and its not a contest. But to be really fair thats not a comparison thats really available in the world of dragon age. There is no modern democracy in the world of Thedas, because, news flash, its not set in the modern world. Its set in a quasi medieval world, and if you really think you wouldn't consider trading what was available for the broad swath of humanity in those times under despotic rulers and feudal lords for whats offered by the Qun, you either need to read a few more history books or get your head examined.

Allow me to kindly disagree, when I say that pretty much every society in Thedas that we come across, is preferable to the Qun.
Look at Zhevran, born by an elven tramp, pretty much as low as you can possibly get - hell look at Fenris. Even as a slave to one of the worse tevinter Magisters, he still had choices, and he still came out an individual. Thoughts cannot be, and never should be, oppressed. But doing just that, is the entire point of the Qun.