647 réponses à ce sujet

[Gadarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I personally am somewhat of an individualist, who highly values merit and ambition. So I obviously do not agree entirely with the Qun. However I am not arrogant / naive enough to say that my views are a universal truth and that those who do not fit in my ideals are necessarily "weak". Of course the Qunari are guilty of doing just that. I reject both the op and the Qunari way of presenting their arguments.

While this is true, there's also a huge difference. As we can see in this thread and pretty much in any other topic, people have different opinions. Some, including me, see the followers of the Qun as weak and simply dodging personal moral responsability, others see the Qun as something honorable or even preferable to our modern western societies. And then there's loads of opinions in between.

Now, if we all were Qunari, there wouldn't even be a discussion. Because the Qun is The Truth. Not just for us, but universally. Even if they've never heard of it before. There is exactly one valid 'opinion' (which is no opinion but The Truth ™), so you can't really compare an individuals opinion to the truth of the Qun. Whereas the individual explicitely asks for different opinions, Qunari never would.

That's also the reason why it's wrong to compare the Chantry to the Qunari. Yeah, there are zealots representing the former, bigots, fanatics, whatever. But there are also kind people, generous ones, people who believe that compromise is a good thing, and that everyone should believe whatever floats their boat. Like the revered mother in Kirkwall.
In short: The Chantry is made up of people with different opinions. At times, opinion 1 will be dominant, other times opinion 2,3 or 4. We can actually witness the shift in opinion among the templars over the course of the game. Not so with the Qunari.

Qunari do not present 'arguments'. They present truths.

Modifié par Gadarr, 22 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[jmcconnell]

Double post

Modifié par jmcconnell, 22 mars 2011 - 12:28 .

[jmcconnell]

Lithuasil wrote...

Allow me to kindly disagree, when I say that pretty much every society in Thedas that we come across, is preferable to the Qun.
Look at Zhevran, born by an elven tramp, pretty much as low as you can possibly get - hell look at Fenris. Even as a slave to one of the worse tevinter Magisters, he still had choices, and he still came out an individual. Thoughts cannot be, and never should be, oppressed. But doing just that, is the entire point of the Qun.

The problem here is that you're looking at outliers. All the characters that we have any great deal of interaction with are not the normal run of the mill serf you find working a farm. They are, by deffinition, special. They're the small band of warriors that changes the world. Not a very representative sample set from which to draw conclusions about the lives and struggels of the vast majority of the population that you might find in the world of dragon age. Zhevran was an incredibly skilled assassine that was purchased at an early age by one of the most highly paid assassins guilds in all of Theadus. Seem to remember him saying something about having to fight other kids to the death to move up the ranks. Sure he's a confidant bisexual assassin now, but the path he took doesn't exactly sound ideal. It certain doesn't sound ideal if you were one of the slave children who didn't make it through those lovely antivan crow tests.

Fenris was a singular gifted warrior that, according to his sister, bested many people to get the 'honor' of getting those tattoos. He was the equivalent of a skilled house slave in the antebellum south. Yes they did have better lives than the field hands. Still doesn't mean i'd want to live there.

Before I decide on the worth the unworth of a society I want to consider those cases that are a little closer to the norm. I'm going to go talk to the kid dying of some wasting desease in darktown and his family. The slave who just had the rest of his family sold away from him. etc.

Once again, I didn't say I thought the qunari were some kind of ideal society, they're not by any strech of the immagination. But don't pull out examples like these and claim the societies they came from are any closer to a place you'd want to live. Would you want to be sold to the crows at the age of 5 and killed at 7 by another kid who was a little faster than you? Would you want to watch your family be torn apart by them selling your sister to another master, or just killing her for sport after they finish raping her a few times? I don't really think that you'd want to live in these places, even if at the end of it all they produce sassy bisexual elves.

And I completely agree, free speech, free thought, everything that comes with our modern society is great. These never should be repressed. Qunari are bad for doing it. However, my entire point was that the other societies of dragon age are not nice little modern democracies that have nice little bills of rights, well established judical systems, free market economic principals etc. They're feudal monarcies, nobal run city states, slave empires etc. Freedom of though, speech, education, employment, as you know it today did not exist in these societies. The freedoms that you enjoy and love are the product of the last couple hundred years of human cultural evolution, relatively recent by historical standards. They were not generally found in the type of societies that would be prevalent in the quasi historical time period of dragon age, and if they were they were only reserved for a very small, very select group of wealthy elite, i.e. the the group that might include the select group of superhuman warriors that we control in the game. Even if they did happen to rise from poverty, my guess would be that not every kid in darktown is going to end up being the champion of kirkwall, unfortunately he doesn't have the bioware writers on his side.

Modifié par jmcconnell, 22 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[Gadarr]

jmcconnell wrote...
They were not generally found in these types of societies, and if they were they were only reserved for a very small, very select group of wealthy elite, i.e. the the group that might include the select group of superhuman warriors that we control in the game. Even if they did happen to rise from poverty, my guess would be that not every kid in darktown is going to end up being the champion of kirkwall, unfortunately he doesn't have the bioware writers on his side.

That kid would at least in theory have the possibility to rise to some higher social status. Even in medieval feudal societies, such things weren't impossible. Chances are he's never going to, but still he can dream. No imagine you took that from him, those dreams, and told him that he's forever going to be a stone cutter. He'll never go hungry, but the only choice he'd have left would be to excel in stone cutting or to die. I personally think that this alternative is just... sad.

Yes, on a material level it grants security. But it takes away everything else. Not a fair deal, if you ask me. But then of course, I'm not a kid growing up in a slum, having to worry about my next meal.

Modifié par Gadarr, 22 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[Lithuasil]

jmcconnell wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Allow me to kindly disagree, when I say that pretty much every society in Thedas that we come across, is preferable to the Qun.
Look at Zhevran, born by an elven tramp, pretty much as low as you can possibly get - hell look at Fenris. Even as a slave to one of the worse tevinter Magisters, he still had choices, and he still came out an individual. Thoughts cannot be, and never should be, oppressed. But doing just that, is the entire point of the Qun.

The problem here is that you're looking at outliers. All the characters that we have any great deal of interaction with are not the normal run of the mill serf you find working a farm. They are, by deffinition, special. They're the small band of warriors that changes the world. Not a very representative sample set from which to draw conclusions about the lives and struggels of the vast majority of the population that you might find in the world of dragon age. Zhevran was an incredibly skilled assassine that was purchased at an early age by one of the most highly paid assassins guilds in all of Theadus. Seem to remember him saying something about having to fight other kids to the death to move up the ranks. Sure he's a confidant bisexual assassin now, but the path he took doesn't exactly sound ideal. It certain doesn't sound ideal if you were one of the slave children who didn't make it through those lovely antivan crow tests.

Fenris was a singular gifted warrior that, according to his sister, bested many people to get the 'honor' of getting those tattoos. He was the equivalent of a skilled house slave in the antebellum south. Yes they did have better lives than the field hands. Still doesn't mean i'd want to live there.

Before I decide on the worth the unworth of a society I want to consider those cases that are a little closer to the norm. I'm going to go talk to the kid dying of some wasting desease in darktown and his family. The slave who just had the rest of his family sold away from him. etc.

Once again, I didn't say I thought the qunari were some kind of ideal society, they're not by any strech of the immagination. But don't pull out examples like these and claim the societies they came from are any closer to a place you'd want to live. Would you want to be sold to the crows at the age of 5 and killed at 7 by another kid who was a little faster than you? Would you want to watch your family be torn apart by them selling your sister to another master, or just killing her for sport after they finish raping her a few times? I don't really think that you'd want to live in these places, even if at the end of it all they produce sassy bisexual elves.

And I completely agree, free speech, free thought, everything that comes with our modern society is great. These never should be repressed. Qunari are bad for doing it. However, my entire point was that the other societies of dragon age are not nice little modern democracies that have nice little bills of rights, well established judical systems, free market economic principals etc. They're feudal monarcies, nobal run city states, slave empires etc. Freedom of though, speech, education, employment, as you know it today did not exist in these societies. The freedoms that you enjoy and love are the product of the last couple hundred years of human cultural evolution, relatively recent by historical standards. They were not generally found in the type of societies that would be prevalent in the quasi historical time period of dragon age, and if they were they were only reserved for a very small, very select group of wealthy elite, i.e. the the group that might include the select group of superhuman warriors that we control in the game. Even if they did happen to rise from poverty, my guess would be that not every kid in darktown is going to end up being the champion of kirkwall, unfortunately he doesn't have the bioware writers on his side.

Sure those are special - but they had the opportunity to become so. Fenris had the choice of entering such a contest. A qunari does not.
And besides - what I can say, is that knowing my own physique and mind, *I* would rather be born in a tevinter slave family, then in a family in qun conquered territory. (Just as I, if born a mage, would rather live in a circle, then in tevinter or as an apostate).

[Big I]

Lithuasil wrote...
Sure those are special - but they had the opportunity to become so. Fenris had the choice of entering such a contest. A qunari does not.
And besides - what I can say, is that knowing my own physique and mind, *I* would rather be born in a tevinter slave family, then in a family in qun conquered territory. (Just as I, if born a mage, would rather live in a circle, then in tevinter or as an apostate).

The point is that most people in Thedas won't. Let's use Zevran as an example. He's someone who came from nothing (son of an elven prostitute) and became a complete badass (an Antivan Crow making a bid for leadership of the organisation). Out of all the children at the brothel he grew up in, he's the only one who did well. Out of all the children bought by the Crows, he's one of the few who made it through the training. And out of all the Crows who were used as expendable resources by the guildmasters, he's the only one who gained his freedom.


Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel, all those who died during Crow training, and all those Crows who were treated like nothing would all be alive, safe, productive members of society, and most of them would be happy. The Qun doesn't care if you're an elf, or your mother was a prostitute, or about anything else. It's a system of social and ethnic equality, with the proviso that you cannot determine the course of your own life.


The Qun's got problems (treatment of mages, policies of childcare, etc) but it values honesty, commitment, and hard work, and it doesn't make judgements on a person's class or race. If I were an elf in Thedas, I would much rather live in Par Vollen than Orlais or Tevinter.

[Lithuasil]

LookingGlass93 wrote...


The point is that most people in Thedas won't. Let's use Zevran as an example. He's someone who came from nothing (son of an elven prostitute) and became a complete badass (an Antivan Crow making a bid for leadership of the organisation). Out of all the children at the brothel he grew up in, he's the only one who did well. Out of all the children bought by the Crows, he's one of the few who made it through the training. And out of all the Crows who were used as expendable resources by the guildmasters, he's the only one who gained his freedom.

One gained his freedom. That's one more then would've gained his freedom under the Qun. And every single of those children had the potential chance of being that one, if they were lucky / skilled / dedicated enough. That chance, however slim it might be, is infinitely more then what they'd have with the alternative. The chance of leading anything resembling a "life" as opposed to merely existing, under the Qun, is zero for everyone.


Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel, all those who died during Crow training, and all those Crows who were treated like nothing would all be alive, safe, productive members of society, and most of them would be happy. The Qun doesn't care if you're an elf, or your mother was a prostitute, or about anything else. It's a system of social and ethnic equality, with the proviso that you cannot determine the course of your own life.

Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel who died fighting to gain a better life would be  nothing but resources to maintain a society that serves no purpose beyond existing. No one would give two ****s if they were happy, and if by chance someone ended up in their preferred position, it'd be a rare accident. 

The Qun's got problems (treatment of mages, policies of childcare, etc) but it values honesty, commitment, and hard work, and it doesn't make judgements on a person's class or race. If I were an elf in Thedas, I would much rather live in Par Vollen than Orlais or Tevinter.

The Qun values honesty as long as it serves them and lies as petty as everybody else does, otherwise. They demand absolute commitment to a cause that cannot possibly be your own, and makes judgements based an obscure philosophy, that determine a persons entire life. I'd much rather take a dagger to my own throat, then live by the Qun.

Answers in bold :|

[Reidbynature]

Can't believe some people got their panties in a twist over people liking the Qunari. It's just fiction. They're like the Klingons of Dragon Age. They're there to be culturally different and vaguely adversarial.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 22 mars 2011 - 01:43 .

[Darmon]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
I see this as the most simple way to explain Qun to someone else. No relation can be done to modern day society, and from the many opinions expressed in this thread, no single answer can be agreed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gadarr wrote...
Now, if we all were Qunari, there wouldn't even be a discussion. Because the Qun is The Truth. Not just for us, but universally. Even if they've never heard of it before. There is exactly one valid 'opinion' (which is no opinion but The Truth ™), so you can't really compare an individuals opinion to the truth of the Qun. Whereas the individual explicitely asks for different opinions, Qunari never would.

And why are you attributing that much importance to this discussion? If a society can function well without it, why should it matter?

You're adopting a modern perspective on things that people don't even know in Thedas.

In short: The Chantry is made up of people with different opinions. At times, opinion 1 will be dominant, other times opinion 2,3 or 4. We can actually witness the shift in opinion among the templars over the course of the game. Not so with the Qunari.

Remember that we only saw the military arm of the Qunari. We did not see the other arms, so we have little idea how their society functions. And even if there is room to only one opinion. Why should matter?

Since they see society as completely organic, with each individual acting like a cell. Saying that individuals need to have diverging opinions, to them, is like saying that cells are free to choose what they want to do. That would cause a lot of dysfunctionning.

Again, like the op, you are starting with the idea that divergence of opinions and freedom of thought are absolutely necessary or desirable. A fine premise, which I agree with. But if the Qunari can function without it (and seemigly better than others in Thedas), then it's only a premise in th context of DA. Why should the Qunari care about it?  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 02:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel who died fighting to gain a better life would be  nothing but resources to maintain a society that serves no purpose beyond existing. No one would give two ****s if they were happy, and if by chance someone ended up in their preferred position, it'd be a rare accident. 

Consderingt the fact that they are the most advanced nation in Thedas, I'd say their society serves a purpose beyond existence. They'd say it's the demand of the Qun. In political terms, it's the dominance of their society.

Why should happiness of individuals matter if a society can function and develop without it?  And who told you that Qunari citizens are not happy? Considering the fact that many humans converted to the Qun when they first came and that many resisted the Chantry's inquisition until they were completely wiped out, I'd say many of them were happy. There are other forms of happiness than the individualist mantra we have today.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[Big I]

Lithuasil wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...


The point is that most people in Thedas won't. Let's use Zevran as an example. He's someone who came from nothing (son of an elven prostitute) and became a complete badass (an Antivan Crow making a bid for leadership of the organisation). Out of all the children at the brothel he grew up in, he's the only one who did well. Out of all the children bought by the Crows, he's one of the few who made it through the training. And out of all the Crows who were used as expendable resources by the guildmasters, he's the only one who gained his freedom.

One gained his freedom. That's one more then would've gained his freedom under the Qun. And every single of those children had the potential chance of being that one, if they were lucky / skilled / dedicated enough. That chance, however slim it might be, is infinitely more then what they'd have with the alternative. The chance of leading anything resembling a "life" as opposed to merely existing, under the Qun, is zero for everyone.


Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel, all those who died during Crow training, and all those Crows who were treated like nothing would all be alive, safe, productive members of society, and most of them would be happy. The Qun doesn't care if you're an elf, or your mother was a prostitute, or about anything else. It's a system of social and ethnic equality, with the proviso that you cannot determine the course of your own life.

Under the Qun, all those children from the brothel who died fighting to gain a better life would be  nothing but resources to maintain a society that serves no purpose beyond existing. No one would give two ****s if they were happy, and if by chance someone ended up in their preferred position, it'd be a rare accident. 

The Qun's got problems (treatment of mages, policies of childcare, etc) but it values honesty, commitment, and hard work, and it doesn't make judgements on a person's class or race. If I were an elf in Thedas, I would much rather live in Par Vollen than Orlais or Tevinter.

The Qun values honesty as long as it serves them and lies as petty as everybody else does, otherwise. They demand absolute commitment to a cause that cannot possibly be your own, and makes judgements based an obscure philosophy, that determine a persons entire life. I'd much rather take a dagger to my own throat, then live by the Qun.

Answers in bold :|

First, your argument leads to the conclusion that so long as one person does well (Zevran) the failure and suffering of a great many other people (failed Crows, etc) is justified; so long as the possibility exists for someone to succeed, however remote, a system that victimises people is better than one that sees to their material needs at the expense of their personal freedom. Furthermore, your definition of life=freedom disregards that a) many people feel differently (people who convert to the Qun), and that they always have the freedom to leave the Qun and become Tal Vasoth


Second, your argument also leads to the conclusion that it is better to die in poverty and misery (i.e prostitution or slavery) than to live in a role dictated to you by others. Unless the role you are relegated to is prostitute or slave, I disagree, even if the role you're given does not perfectly match up with your desires.


Thirdly, the Qun is not something most qunari follow out of fear of reprisal. The qunari we've seen acting independtly of their society (Sten, Saarebas, the guy who collects the swords in Act 3) still act in a way that follows the Qun. They believe in it wholeheartedly. If you read the codex, it even says that when the Exalted Marches kicked the qunari out of occupied territories (e.g. Rivain) people who'd converted to the Qun refused to convert back to the Chantry.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Again, like the op, you are starting with the idea that divergence of opinions and freedom of thought are absolutely necessary or desirable. A fine premise, which I agree with. But if the Qunari can function without it (and seemigly better than others in Thedas), then it's only a premise in th context of DA. Why should the Qunari care about it?  

But the Qunari can't function like that - not only is there the purely practical problem, that the specific skills and talents of those coming of age, are never going to exactly meet the demands of what is currently needed, essentially the entirety of what we see of the Qunari is one big fiasko - they have their holy relic stolen, so they can't return. However the Qun has no specific guidelines for the kind of situation they're in. So they sit on their backsides for three years, before launching a suicide attack without any militaristic purpose. That's not a working society.

And also - I didn't ask for Qunari opinions in this thread - I asked why any sane person in our day and age can say "woah, those guys are so cool, I want to join them", as many on these forums have.

[Reznore57]

I love the Qunari ,they're good ennemies.
They have values ,they won't stab you in the back.
They take people for what they're worth.Except for mages who are treated poorly.But the Arishok mentions he has a deep respect for Saarebas and their struggle against corruption.
I like freedom and having the choice to disagree and be what you want ,but i have respect for Qunari.

Modifié par Reznore57, 22 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Lithuasil]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
First, your argument leads to the conclusion that so long as one person does well (Zevran) the failure and suffering of a great many other people (failed Crows, etc) is justified; so long as the possibility exists for someone to succeed, however remote, a system that victimises people is better than one that sees to their material needs at the expense of their personal freedom. Furthermore, your definition of life=freedom disregards that a) many people feel differently (people who convert to the Qun), and that they always have the freedom to leave the Qun and become Tal Vasoth


Second, your argument also leads to the conclusion that it is better to die in poverty and misery (i.e prostitution or slavery) than to live in a role dictated to you by others. Unless the role you are relegated to is prostitute or slave, I disagree, even if the role you're given does not perfectly match up with your desires.


Thirdly, the Qun is not something most qunari follow out of fear of reprisal. The qunari we've seen acting independtly of their society (Sten, Saarebas, the guy who collects the swords in Act 3) still act in a way that follows the Qun. They believe in it wholeheartedly. If you read the codex, it even says that when the Exalted Marches kicked the qunari out of occupied territories (e.g. Rivain) people who'd converted to the Qun refused to convert back to the Chantry.

My argument is that living, and dying, in poverty is superior to simply existing, yes. If your whole life, what you are, what you do, what you think is dictated, you're not alive, not in the same sense that sentient beings are alive. You exist, but, not much different from being tranquil, you're a husk. Everything that makes a difference between an animal or insect, and a sentient being with a working conscience, is taken from you.
That is my entire point - submitting to a philosophy like the Qun, means throwing away the one most valuable thing you can possibly possess, the one thing that no slaver, no employer, no prison warden can truly take from you unless you let them. And yet we're told that people volunteer for it, and that even people on these very forums claim they would. That is what I cannot understand, since surrendering the most priceless thing a person can possibly possess out of fear of uncertainty, strikes me as... well, pathetic.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
But the Qunari can't function like that - not only is there the purely practical problem, that the specific skills and talents of those coming of age, are never going to exactly meet the demands of what is currently needed, essentially the entirety of what we see of the Qunari is one big fiasko - they have their holy relic stolen, so they can't return. However the Qun has no specific guidelines for the kind of situation they're in. So they sit on their backsides for three years, before launching a suicide attack without any militaristic purpose. That's not a working society.

You are basing the complete conjecture that Qunari society does not function, because the Arishok couldn't find the relic in 3 years? Seriously?

First, you are completely ignoring the fact that he was systematically provoked and attacked.
Second, the Qunari society functions with 3 heads. Here, you have only one which leads to limitations.
Third, what do you want him to do to find the relic exactly?
Fourth, the purpose of the attack was to get hostages to press for the return of the tome most likely.

On what basis are you saying that Qunari society does not function? On your premise that individualism is necessary? I agree that is the case in real life, but the Qunari seem to have gone beyond that. They are the most advanced nation in Thedas and the most powerful. It took all nations in Thedas to unite to inflict a dent on them and even so, it's their slaughtering of civilians, without even hurting the Qunari military, that forced their withdrawal.

And also - I didn't ask for Qunari opinions in this thread - I asked why any sane person in our day and age can say "woah, those guys are so cool, I want to join them", as many on these forums have.

Because they are different and "exotic". And because they are badass. And because it's the internet, you can say anything.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[Big I]

Lithuasil wrote...
And also - I didn't ask for Qunari opinions in this thread - I asked why any sane person in our day and age can say "woah, those guys are so cool, I want to join them", as many on these forums have.

1. In a world with casteless, alienages, slavery, and serfdom they treat people equally, regardless of race or class.

2. They value honesty.

3. They value knowledge.

4. They protect their people.

[_Aine_]

The thing I find interesting about the Qunari is that that "appear" (at the very least) to have a decently functioning society despite all the criticisms about lack of freedoms and choice and despite it being almost completely divergent to our own societies (in general). In fact, even those we consider victimized seem to (yes, *seem* to) find freedom in having a place and a role that they can be at "home" in being.

I am torn. I am, at times, an idealist who wants to believe that anyone can do anything they set their minds to but sometimes circumstance does not allow even the opportunity which can lead to much heartbreak.... If everyone had a role, one that they were *suited* for, whether or not they *loved* it, they could potentially find peace and satisfaction in that because there is no room for "wanting" more. It really is a double edged sword.

Anyway, a fascinating concept to think about and explore in DA. I hope we see more of them to find out how it all *really* works.

@Reznore57 I agree they won't stab you in the back. They appear to be a more "honest" culture, superficially anyway. Hard to tell how it works from only our exposure probably, but still.

Modifié par shantisands, 22 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are basing the complete conjecture that Qunari society does not function, because the Arishok couldn't find the relic in 3 years? Seriously?

I'm basing my judgement of Qunari society on the fact that their entire premise can't possibly biologically work, goes against the very core of all philosophical achievements of the last three thousand years, and that every single action I've seen any Qunari undertake throughout the course of two entire games, was a complete and utter failure.

What other grounds are there to judge them by, aside from wishful thinking?

[blothulfur]

Ah this reminds me of the endless debates of the tamassran and the ashkaari that resound in the forums and academies of Par Vollen, every word of the Qun has been studied and argued over for centuries and will always be. In this lively debate you show the the spark of enlightenment that will light the way to the Qun for you all.

Thought for the day: Mountains, kingdoms, seas all have crumbled to entropies dread tyranny, only the Qun endures in eternal order.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
I'm basing my judgement of Qunari society on the fact that their entire premise can't possibly biologically work, goes against the very core of all philosophical achievements of the last three thousand years, and that every single action I've seen any Qunari undertake throughout the course of two entire games, was a complete and utter failure.

What other grounds are there to judge them by, aside from wishful thinking?

A- the Qunari are not human and are not bound by our philosophies. They might have a completely different biology. Ignoring the idea that philosophy and biology were somehow intertwined. And that Plato's Republic runs counter to what you think are "achievements". 
B- you only saw members of the military. And the amount of epic fails I have seen are mostly hegemonized by humans (and elves and dwarves).

What other grounds? Technology, which they are the best at and not only military technology. The fact that their military commander is accountable and subject to the law, which we today take for granted but it's very difficult to pull off. The fact that many humans preferred to die as Qun than submit to the Chantry again. Sure, you can claim that all of them are pathetic, but that really shows you are not itnerested in lookign at things with some  objectivity.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 02:55 .

[Superposition]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm basing my judgement of Qunari society on the fact that their entire premise can't possibly biologically work, goes against the very core of all philosophical achievements of the last three thousand years, and that every single action I've seen any Qunari undertake throughout the course of two entire games, was a complete and utter failure.

What other grounds are there to judge them by, aside from wishful thinking?

Please elaborate. Specifically state the premise in a concrete way. What evindence from biology do you refer to which support your arguement  ? What is the very core of all philosophical achievements of the last three thousand years ? How does this "core" conflict with the original premise ?

Modifié par Superposition, 22 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
A- the Qunari are not human and are not bound by our philosophies. They might have a completely different biology. Ignoring the idea that philosophy and biology were somehow intertwined. And that Plato's Republic runs counter to what you think are "achievements". 
B- you only saw members of the military. And the amount of epic fails I have seen are mostly hegemonized by humans (and elves and dwarves).

What other grounds? Technology, which they are the best at and not only military technology. The fact that their military commander is accountable and subject to the law, which we today take from granted but it's very difficult to pull off. The fact that many humans preferred to die as Qun than submit to the Chantry again. Sure, you can claim that all of them are pathetic, but that really shows you are not itnerested in lookign at things with some  objectivity.

As long as the Qunari technology isn't advanced enough to have mastered Genetics, their system can not possibly work the way they claim it does. NOT. POSSIBLE. 

But tell me, is there a single action we see a Qunari actually succeed at? Because the only one I can think of, is the killing of mother petrice. You know, the one where the Sten was "protecting" Saemus, by killing his murderer roughly two hours too late to make any difference? But at least he managed to kill an unarmed woman.Good Job, real life saver there.
On that matter - we have eight foot tall monstrocities, natural born warriors, with the best military technology in the entire world, their mages far better integrated in their armed forces. This unstoppable army, with excellent morale and unfaltering courage has long conquered the world  waged war on everyone, and still only holds that one island they started of with. A marvellously successful race indeed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
As long as the Qunari technology isn't advanced enough to have mastered Genetics, their system can not possibly work the way they claim it does. NOT. POSSIBLE.

On what basis?
You are starting with your own ideas and want to impose it on a compeltely different species. How is that an argument?

The Qunari are bred for their roles. It doesn't have to be completely biological for it to work. Maybe their gender differences are much greater than our gender differences.

But tell me, is there a single action we see a Qunari actually succeed at?

So, you want to judge an entire society as a failure, because of the limited appearance of Qunari in 2 games and only military men? How do you want me to argue against that?

What I can provide is their successes out-game. Technology and the appeal that led to many humans embracing the qun and preferring to die for it.

And you can assign Sten to lead the rearguard at the final battle and he does well. And he's the only one with the balls to challenge you. 

On that matter - we have eight foot tall monstrocities, natural born warriors, with the best military technology in the entire world, their mages far better integrated in their armed forces. This unstoppable army, with excellent morale and unfaltering courage has long conquered the world  waged war on everyone, and still only holds that one island they started of with. A marvellously successful race indeed.

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll on the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew"

Taken from The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar. 

So you think the Qunari should ignore the death of their people and keep fighting, right? So they don't qualify s a failure?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Gadarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And why are you attributing that much importance to this discussion? If a society can function well without it, why should it matter?

You're adopting a modern perspective on things that people don't even know in Thedas.

Because you said that the OPs opinion is of the same repressing quality as the Qun. Which is simply not true, because an opinion automatically allows for differing opinions, whereas The Truth doesn't. And it is never a good idea to adopt a perceived absolute truth when it's obvious that other possibilities exist. The Qunari do exactly this, and thus they will forever stagnate as a society. Not in terms of technology or whatever, but in terms of perspective. There is just never going to be anything 'better', by definition.

Anyway, the people in Thedas do obviously follow an individualist approach. While they may have no idea of 'democracy', 'free speech' or 'human rights' in general, they very much do believe that everyone is responsible for his own fate. So it stands to reason that their societies will, over time, evolve. Rebellions, progessive ideas on how to form society and so on. While Thedas obviously is in many ways a reflection of our medieval Europe, there are fundamental differences. For one, the Chantry contrary to the Church apparently doesn't preach that one should accept the circumstances you were born into, because that's what the Maker wants and that to strive for a better life would thus be heresy or some such nonsense. Interestingly,  that's pretty much what the Qun states.