647 réponses à ce sujet

[PantheraOnca]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm basing my judgement of Qunari society on the fact that their entire premise can't possibly biologically work,

What? 'Splain yourself Lucy.

goes against the very core of all philosophical achievements of the last three thousand years,

What philosophical achievements are you referring to?

and that every single action I've seen any Qunari undertake throughout the course of two entire games, was a complete and utter failure.

sten got his answer. the mage chose to do what he wanted successfully.

What other grounds are there to judge them by, aside from wishful thinking?

Their conquest of thedas speaks to their military prowess, their ceasing conflict because of civilian casualties speaks to their character. The fact that the chantry wiped out people who refused to convert back to andraste shows that the qun has merits beyond "do this or become tal'vashoth"

[RazorrX]

Actually, they hold the island and a city in Rivain. That coupled with the fact that part of Rivain refused to convert back to the chantry after being 'freed' gives them a foothold there. They were winning against odds vastly higher than the number they came with, they retreated when the numbers were just too high, too many mages, too many to fight (hundreds to 1 with many more waiting in the wings). That was a strategic withdraw, not a loss. They gained a foothold here (the city) they can now attack again once they are better prepared. In fact they are currently fighting Tevinter, and if Tevinter falls, the rest of thedas will be in trouble.

The Arishok is a military leader. He thinks and acts according to his role. He could have thought the relic/book was lost to him. He alludes several times that *IF* he is forced to stay in Kirkwall, things WILL change. His disgust with the city, coupled with frustration at not finding said book led him to act according to his role. And in just a few hours he had won the city. Without the player character, he would have converted Kirkwall to the Qun in a matter of days (IE killed off everyone who resisted).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gadarr wrote...
Because you said that the OPs opinion is of the same repressing quality as the Qun. Which is simply not true, because an opinion automatically allows for differing opinions, whereas The Truth doesn't. And it is never a good idea to adopt a perceived absolute truth when it's obvious that other possibilities exist. The Qunari do exactly this, and thus they will forever stagnate as a society. Not in terms of technology or whatever, but in terms of perspective. There is just never going to be anything 'better', by definition.

Since the op doesn't have the repressive tools to do so, then yea. But that's besides the point. My point was, the op thinks there is one truth and that apparently, all philosophies in the past 3 thousand years converge on it (meh). And because the Qunari don't fit in that, their society is apparently non-functional.

That's just another way of saying that "I know how a society functions. The Qunari don't." Aka, I know the Truth, they don't. Which is not that different from what the Qunari say.

Anyway, the people in Thedas do obviously follow an individualist approach. While they may have no idea of 'democracy', 'free speech' or 'human rights' in general, they very much do believe that everyone is responsible for his own fate. So it stands to reason that their societies will, over time, evolve.

And yet many preferred to die as Qunari. And that those who conveted to the Qun said that it offered them a means to find their own path. So it's not as rigid as people like to think it is.

I am not disagreeing with you, that the Qunari are potentially going to stagnate eventually. But it's not a necessity. They might think that the fundamentals of their society are perfect and in no need for change, but they can always improve in other fields, which materially matter more.

If they keep surpassing Thedas in technology, knowledge and what not, why should a stagnation of perspective necessarily lead to material stagnation?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 03:32 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

On what basis?
You are starting with your own ideas and want to impose it on a compeltely different species. How is that an argument?

The Qunari are bred for their roles. It doesn't have to be completely biological for it to work. Maybe their gender differences are much greater than our gender differences.

Granted, the Qunari *could* be completely different. There's no evidence for that, other then your own imagination, while there's hints for the opposite (if the Qunari where indeed biologically perfect for their assigned roles, however that could possibly work, why are there tal-vashoth? the qunari aren't the geth, they're born as individuals, they just desperately try to oppress that.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So, you want to judge an entire society as a failure, because of the limited appearance of Qunari in 2 games and only military men? How do you want me to argue against that?

What I can provide is their successes out-game. Technology and the appeal that led to many humans embracing the qun and preferring to die for it.

And you can assign Sten to lead the rearguard at the final battle and he does well. And he's the only one with the balls to challenge you. 

I'm judging them on whatever basis I can see for myself. Your entire argument is "Merill is totally an experienced, sawy, self assured and in no way naive woman. All we see of her is the exact opposite, but she manages to live in the Alienage for six years, and we don't have definite proof that she isn't." 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"The war drained the resources of every nation in Thedas, leaving most on the brink of collapse. For the giants, it did not appear to be the damage to their armada or the loss of their soldiers, but the terrible toll on the Rivaini population that prompted their retreat. When the Third Exalted March had all but massacred the people of Kont-aar without even chipping the Qunari occupying force, the giants finally withdrew"

Taken from The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry Scholar. 

So you think the Qunari should ignore the death of their people and keep fighting, right? So they don't qualify s a failure?

I suppose you're right, starting a war for no reason, and then pulling back half way through, with nothing gained but lots of death on all sides, that's much smarter and more honorable.
Oh wait.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Since the op doesn't have the repressive tools to do so, then yea. But that's besides the point. My point was, the op thinks there is one truth and that apparently, all philosophies in the past 3 thosuand years converge on it (meh). And because the Qunari don't fit in that, their society is apaprently non-functional.

That's just another way of saying that "I know how a society functions. The Qunari don't." Aka, I know the Turth, they don't. Which is not that different from what the Qunari say.

Name one philosopher, or philosophical theory in the entire history of mankind, that does not, in one way or another, evolve around the human conscience (which is, let's not forget) the defining difference between humans and animals, or finding the purpose on why we are given said conscience. Because that's what the Qun wants you to abandon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Granted, the Qunari *could* be completely different. There's no evidence for that, other then your own imagination, while there's hints for the opposite (if the Qunari where indeed biologically perfect for their assigned roles, however that could possibly work, why are there tal-vashoth? the qunari aren't the geth, they're born as individuals, they just desperately try to oppress that.

Breeding. It doesn't have to be biological to work.

I'm judging them on whatever basis I can see for myself. Your entire argument is "Merill is totally an experienced, sawy, self assured and in no way naive woman. All we see of her is the exact opposite, but she manages to live in the Alienage for six years, and we don't have definite proof that she isn't."

Weak analogy. Unlike Merrill, the Qunari are not an individual, they are a society. To judge a society based on the actions of a few is very different from judging an individual based on what you see.

That's first. Second, the Qunari have evidences of success . Their advanced technology speaks of their desire to seek knowldge and put it to practical use. 

I suppose you're right, starting a war for no reason, and then pulling back half way through, with nothing gained but lots of death on all sides, that's much smarter and more honorable.
Oh wait.

Starting a war to conquer. Of course humans never do that right.
The Qunari gained an ally in Rivain. And it's only round one for them. 

As for the amount of death, blame the Chantry. Massacring the people of Kont-aar served no military purpose whatsoever.

Also: "For all the force that the qunari armies had brought to bear on the north, they also lacked the sheer numbers of the humans. As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless
corpses to this day."

The Qunari should be held solely responsable for what the Chantry does?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[Morning808]

I hate the Qun! I am so happy it wasn't because of Sten but his entire race!

They look really cool but I can't stand them, I'm happy I got to kill their leader since he was annoying me

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Name one philosopher, or philosophical theory in the entire history of mankind, that does not, in one way or another, evolve around the human conscience (which is, let's not forget) the defining difference between humans and animals, or finding the purpose on why we are given said conscience. Because that's what the Qun wants you to abandon.

Plato's Republic is very similar to the Qun.

And who told you the Qunari want you to abandon it?
" one Seheran who converted reported pity for those who had not, as if the conquerors’ religion led to a sort of self-discovery. ‘For all my life I followed the Maker wherever his path may lead me,’ he writes, ‘but in the faith of the qun I have found the means to travel my own path. If only all my people could understand what it is the qunari offer us.’"

The purpose of conscience, for them, is serving the greater whole (the Qun). Why should that "human conscience" automatically lead to serving the individual? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[Redem0]

I think the Qnin basicly like trying ot make society run like an ant colony, no particular drive toward morality and more toward pure praticiality.

It has its own logic who is relativiely coherent with itself which may attract some especially if they are disastified with the current state of thing (which apply to a lot of people in Kirkwall), but that doesn't mean it necessarly better

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Breeding. It doesn't have to be biological to work.
 

Breeding humanoids is of course such an exact thing, and works so perfectly well. Tell me, from the evidence in the game, do you think your theory that the Qunari are simply better at breeding then humans are in our society, or mine that the Qun simply doesn't give tho sh*ts find more evidence to support them?

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Weak analogy. Unlike Merrill, the Qunari are not an individual, they are a society. To judge a society based on the actions of a few is very different from judging an individual based on what you see.

That's first. Second, the Qunari have evidences of success . Their advanced technology speaks of their desire to seek knowldge and put it to practical use. 

All analogies are weak. But of course, gunpowder and poison gas. Clearly, giving up your conscious self is well worth it, if you get to live in a society that has gunpowder and poison gas.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Starting a war to conquer. Of course humans never do that right.
The Qunari gained an ally in Rivain. And it's only round one for them. 

As for the amount of death, blame the Chantry. Massacring the people of Kont-aar served no military purpose whatsoever.

Also: "For all the force that the qunari armies had brought to bear on the north, they also lacked the sheer numbers of the humans. As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless
corpses to this day."

The Qunari should be held solely responsable for what the Chantry does?

So basically, the following happens.
The QUNARI START A WAR TO CONQUER.
they get stalled.
they pull back.

And you blame the chantry for those that died during the war? Oh right. Sound logic mate.

[Hrodric]

cglasgow wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Why, oh why, can you people not understand "I love the Qunari. They're so cool and interesting but I would not want to live as one." Why do you hear "The Qunari are great. The Arishok is honorable," and jump to thinking we're saying all the other races and nations in Thedas should be conquered.

Well, probably because at the same time qunari fans are saying all that, there's also commentary in the thread about how all the human nations of Thedas are corrupt and medieval and rotten, and there's also commentary about how the Viscount had it coming.

So, 'the qunari are so cool and honorable' plus 'humans suck' plus 'the qunari were justified in attacking' all comes across with the general message of 'the Qun rules, and humans drool!'  Which is why some of us are saying 'Oh, like hell it does!'

If you don't want to wear the shoe, stop having it fit.

Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?

If you will, Mr. Pot, show us the exemplary and perfect bastions of freedom and equality for the common man of Thedas to compare against the qunari. Surely you don't mean to judge the qunari in a vacuum. 

Your staunch defense of modern-day US/Great Britain/*insert other modern democracy here* ideals against the fictitious qunari of a medieval-aged game is irrelevant and off target. This is not comparing apples to oranges; it's comparing apples to pizza.

So, you would personally find it preferable to live under the weight of a noble class so long as they fed you the line, "don't forget, you are *free* to work my lands and serve me or get the whip. Hobson's choice for everyone!"

Good for you! But, pray tell, what does this have to do with the appeal of the qunari to others, given: (a) the socio-political structures in place in Thedas from which to choose; ( the exotic spice they add to the game? 

Again, please, show all the hordes of posts from people stating: the qunari way of life is fantabulous and amazingful, filled with rainbow-painting pink unicorns that fly... and free ice-cream and pie; how they wish upon a star that it becomes their real life.

Or is that just what your mind needs to see in order to justify the content of your posts?

Modifié par Hrodric, 22 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
Breeding humanoids is of course such an exact thing, and works so perfectly well. Tell me, from the evidence in the game, do you think your theory that the Qunari are simply better at breeding then humans are in our society, or mine that the Qun simply doesn't give tho sh*ts find more evidence to support them?

You speak as if we go to  Qunari society and interact with Qunari other than military men. At best, what we have in the game is 1/3 of Qunari society. That is not enough to judge the whole, which is exactly what you are doing.

And why can't they be better at breeding? And even if they aren't. And? Why does that mean their society can't function, when it clearly does?

All analogies are weak. But of course, gunpowder and poison gas. Clearly, giving up your conscious self is well worth it, if you get to live in a society that has gunpowder and poison gas.

Your analogy is extremily weak.
In Awakening, we know they created the looking glass and they know of optics. That's the very least. They are likely advanced in many other fields.

Gunpowder implies chemistry. Gas means an understanding in biology, which makes the gas affect non-Qunari only....etc.

So basically, the following happens.
The QUNARI START A WAR TO CONQUER.
they get stalled.
they pull back.

And you blame the chantry for those that died during the war? Oh right. Sound logic mate.

No, I said the Qunari are not solely to blame. The Chantry carries blame as well, for massacring people for no military purpose.

That's like saying Germany is responsable for the fire bombing of Dresden. They aren't and that act was a revolting act of terror for no purpose. Excellent logic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[The Angry One]

Oh I can't take this anymore.

Would people stop claiming that contempt for the Qun is support for the Chantry? It's not a case of one or the other, is it?
Besides for all the Chantry's ills it does allow personal freedom unless you're a mage.. then again if you're a mage in the Qun you are collared, have your mouth stitched and are treated like an animal. So yeah.

And don't go on about deaths. Do you forget what the Arishok did? Do you forget it's implied he would've killed everyone a lot sooner if not for Hawke? Or are you dismissing that because the Arishok is an oh-so-cool alpha male you want to worship?
The chantry is brutal in response to the Qun, yes. Religious wars are usually brutal, with faith decided by who can kill the most. It's just how it is. The Qun is no less brutal, and they're the ones who start the wars.

As for technological advancement... sorry, gunpowder doesn't make the Qun any greater than anyone else. Why? Because they oppress the use of magic while the Chantry uses it through the Circle. Technology is developed by need. There is no need to develop explosives that will knock a knight off their horse when a mage with a fireball can do so just as easily.
Moreover the Qunari have had gunpowder for at least 300 years and have yet to scale down from cannons. They're pathetic.

Yes I made a post. Whee.

[Superposition]

Lithuasil wrote...
Name one philosopher, or philosophical theory in the entire history of mankind, that does not, in one way or another, evolve around the human conscience (which is, let's not forget) the defining difference between humans and animals, or finding the purpose on why we are given said conscience. Because that's what the Qun wants you to abandon.

By whom are we given conscience ??!??

[fanman72]

Interesting, different take on things. Also a whole culture full of badass intimidating guys

[The Angry One]

fanman72 wrote...

Interesting, different take on things. Also a whole culture full of badass intimidating guys

Sten was intimidating. These guys are a bunch of horned Conan wannabes who's childish face paint makes me giggle.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You speak as if we go to  Qunari society and interact with Qunari other than military men. At best, what we have in the game is 1/3 of Qunari society. That is not enough to judge the whole, which is exactly what you are doing.

And why can't they be better at breeding? And even if they aren't. And? Why does that mean their society can't function, when it clearly does? .

The second they can't magically conjure new people with perfectly fit genetics from the aether, the whole concept of "everyone does what he's meant to do, and what he excells at" falls apart and becomes "everyone does what we tell them to, because we need someone to do it - if they don't want to, sucks to be them". But of course that worked out so well for Russia. And does for China. I hear live over there is really fancy.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, I said the Qunari are not solely to blame. The Chantry carries blame as well, for massacring people for no military purpose.

That's like saying Germany is responsable for the fire bombing of Dresden. They aren't and that act was a revolting act of terror for no purpose. Excellent logic.

Speaking as a german - yes they are. Without WW2, Dresden wouldn't have been bombed. Without the Qunari conquering, no one would've been killed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
Would people stop claiming that contempt for the Qun is support for the Chantry? It's not a case of one or the other, is it?
Besides for all the Chantry's ills it does allow personal freedom unless you're a mage.. then again if you're a mage in the Qun you are collared, have your mouth stitched and are treated like an animal. So yeah.

Since mages are barely 1% of the population (probably lower), in the larger scheme of things, they don't have to matter.

But no, it's not the case for one or the other. I  happen to disagree with both. But we have to put it in context.

And don't go on about deaths. Do you forget what the Arishok did? Do you forget it's implied he would've killed everyone a lot sooner if not for Hawke? Or are you dismissing that because the Arishok is an oh-so-cool alpha male you want to worship?

Are you dismissing the fact he is being constantly provoked and attacked and his people murdered?

The chantry is brutal in response to the Qun, yes. Religious wars are usually brutal, with faith decided by who can kill the most. It's just how it is. The Qun is no less brutal, and they're the ones who start the wars.

No one said they aren't. Some however claim that the Qunari are solely to blame.

As for technological advancement... sorry, gunpowder doesn't make the Qun any greater than anyone else. Why? Because they oppress the use of magic while the Chantry uses it through the Circle. Technology is developed by need. There is no need to develop explosives that will knock a knight off their horse when a mage with a fireball can do so just as easily.
Moreover the Qunari have had gunpowder for at least 300 years and have yet to scale down from cannons. They're pathetic.

Except the Chantry was very relunctant to allow mages to fight and they only let them late into the war. And we also know that they only allowed 7 mages to be present at Ostagar.

If they are so relunctant to use magic, you'd think they would think about altenratives, but they don't. The Qunari did and they employ the mages in the army as well. 

Furthermore, gunpowder implies a substantial (if practical) understanding of chemistry.

[Lithuasil]

Superposition wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
Name one philosopher, or philosophical theory in the entire history of mankind, that does not, in one way or another, evolve around the human conscience (which is, let's not forget) the defining difference between humans and animals, or finding the purpose on why we are given said conscience. Because that's what the Qun wants you to abandon.

By whom are we given conscience ??!??

That's one of the questions philosophy tries to solve. But the Qun, since thinking is all hard and scary, wants you to abandon the whole concept outright.

[Weltenschlange]

I really like the Qunari. They are evil, but in a much more interesting way than the Darkspawn or some cookie-cutter orc-villains. You could say that I love to hate them.

That said, I think some of the fans in this thread are forgetting something when they say that following the Qun's demands (like for example that one saarebas mage in DA II) is a courageous act.

IMO the Qun is a great example for a total belief system. It governs every aspect of a member's life from birth till death. Those who are born into the Qun are carefully indoctrinated from the moment that they have the needed mental capacity. Thus most potential for dissent is contained before it can become a problem. Willingly leaving the Qun is actually considered worse than not being born into it, and the penalty for that is of course death. It's a rather brilliant system from a control point of view.

Therefore I think that those that simply follow the Qun because they were always part of it are just following their programming. Those Qunari that leave the Qun are the courageous ones. Only those individuals with a very high desire for autonomy and the courage to act upon it are able to become tal vashoth.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn at some point that the gray-skinned, sometimes horned people that developed the Qun weren't that different from humans, dwarves or elves before the Qun made them the way they are now.

[EDIT: stupid BSN formatting system! <_<]

Modifié par Weltenschlange, 22 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lithuasil wrote...
The second they can't magically conjure new people with perfectly fit genetics from the aether, the whole concept of "everyone does what he's meant to do, and what he excells at" falls apart and becomes "everyone does what we tell them to, because we need someone to do it - if they don't want to, sucks to be them". But of course that worked out so well for Russia. And does for China. I hear live over there is really fancy.

And why would that be non-functional?

You think the Qunari are like humans and that they have similar socio-economic-political history and context than China and Russia to make that comaprision relevent, let alone a similar psychology?

It's rather "Everyone is trained according to their natural disposition and their need":

"Qunari have been bred for specific roles for a very long time. Parentage isn't really the issue anymore: it's more like pedigree. But breeding doesn't determine the assigned task. If a qunari was bred to be a soldier, but turns out to be more intellectual -- the Tamassrans may stick them in the priesthood, researching weapons technology or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, or who knows what, depending on what roles need filled by someone with their specific traits"

Speaking as a german - yes they are. Without WW2, Dresden wouldn't have been bombed. Without the Qunari conquering, no one would've been killed.

That's just ridiculous. Dresden is rightfully seen as a crime and an act of terror that mostly everyone, including the British, reject. Disproportionate retaliation, especially when it serves no purpose at all except killing, does not absolve the perpetrators of carrying the main responsability.  The perpetrators carry most of the blame.  

In this instance, the massacres the Chantry perpetrated, for apaprently no military purpose, are mainly its own responsability.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since mages are barely 1% of the population (probably lower), in the larger scheme of things, they don't have to matter.

For all their bluntness, the Qunari are very dishonest about problems with their own population.
Tal-Vashoth for instance are dismissed as "not Qunari" and thus nobody has ever left the Qun! So I'd say mages make up more than that.. especially given all the damn Sarebaas we see in Kirkwall alone.

But no, it's not the case for one or the other. I  happen to disagree with both. But we have to put it in context.

Maybe not you but others imply this. In any case the brutality and oppression of the Chantry doesn't diminish the Qun's.

Are you dismissing the fact he is being constantly provoked and attacked and his people murdered?

Did he expect anything more? They are compelled to attack and persecute him by their dogma, just as he is compelled to stay right there until a worthless relic is recovered by his dogma.
To say nothing of the fact that he constantly insults and demeans Kirkwall and it's people, giving fanatics every excuse in the world to attack him.

No one said they aren't. Some however claim that the Qunari are solely to blame.

While both the Chantry and Qun practice zero tolerance when it comes to other faiths, the fact remains the Qun have always been the instigators of war, Tevinter aside. But then they're all evil mustache twirling blood mages who are evil.

Except the Chantry was very relunctant to allow mages to fight and they only let them late into the war. And we also know that they only allowed 7 mages to be present at Ostagar.

If they are so relunctant to use magic, you'd think they would think about altenratives, but they don't. The Qunari did and they employ the mages in the army as well. 

Furthermore, gunpowder implies a substantial (if practical) understanding of chemistry.

The point is that the Chantry can and do deploy mages in the end, if there's a need. And what mages do typically replace and surpass what gunpowder and poison gas can do, on the level the Qunari deploy it with anyway (large cumbersome cannons).
I don't believe the Qunari readily use Sarebaas. The amount used in Kirkwall are a bit of a lore fail to me.

[Lithuasil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You think the Qunari are like humans and that they have similar socio-economic-political history and context than China and Russia to make that comaprision relevent, let alone a similar psychology?

I do so, because it's the only thing we have proof for - there are individuals that manage to free themselves from Qun-brainwashing. There are Qunari that appear brainwashed beyond reasoning. There is no proof whatsoever, aside from you wishing it to be so, that the Qunari are psychologically different from humans. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That's just ridiculous. Dresden is rightfully seen as a crime and an act of terror that mostly everyone, including the British, reject. Disproportionate retaliation, especially when it serves no purpose at all except killing, does not absolve the perpetrators of carrying the main responsability.  The perpetrators carry most of the blame.  

In this instance, the massacres the Chantry perpetrated, for apaprently no military purpose, are mainly its own responsability.

In war, hideous crimes get commited. A party that is attacked and has to fight back restraining themselves is rare, and by no means to be expected. Thus, while those individuals commiting crimes of war need to be held accountable, the bodies need to be piled up where they belong - at the feet of the people who started the war in the first place. 

[Hrodric]

Weltenschlange wrote...

I really like the Qunari. They are evil, but in a much more interesting way than the Darkspawn or some cookie-cutter orc-villains. You could say that I love to hate them.

^ This.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
For all their bluntness, the Qunari are very dishonest about problems with their own population.
Tal-Vashoth for instance are dismissed as "not Qunari" and thus nobody has ever left the Qun! So I'd say mages make up more than that.. especially given all the damn Sarebaas we see in Kirkwall alone.

That I agree with. The Qun is obviously not perfect as they think it is. Absolutely.

And I wouldn't use what we see in the game, in terms of numbers as evidence, otherwise as far as I am concerned, 90% of Kirkwall's population is thugs, mercs, insane mages and demons.

Maybe not you but others imply this. In any case the brutality and oppression of the Chantry doesn't diminish the Qun's.

Indeed not.

Did he expect anything more? They are compelled to attack and persecute him by their dogma, just as he is compelled to stay right there until a worthless relic is recovered by his dogma.
To say nothing of the fact that he constantly insults and demeans Kirkwall and it's people, giving fanatics every excuse in the world to attack him.

It's not like he was openly preaching his disgust. He just said that in his compound, to us.

The fanatics are getting pissed because many are converting and joining him. And for the most part, he remained patient, until he's had enough. He's not completely reasonable and the Chantry fanatics are not completly unreasonable. But in terms of active provocation, I think Chantry fanatics carry most of the blame in this specific instance, especially consdering the fact that he sent envoys that were, as the Viscount said, reasonable and with peaceful intentions.

Sister Petrice wanted war. The Arishok did not. Not now at least.

While both the Chantry and Qun practice zero tolerance when it comes to other faiths, the fact remains the Qun have always been the instigators of war, Tevinter aside. But then they're all evil mustache twirling blood mages who are evil.

That does not absolve the defender from the responsability. Whether you think their massacres are justified or not is another point. My point is, they carry most of the responsability, especially since those massacres hav e no military purpose.

The point is that the Chantry can and do deploy mages in the end, if there's a need. And what mages do typically replace and surpass what gunpowder and poison gas can do, on the level the Qunari deploy it with anyway (large cumbersome cannons).
I don't believe the Qunari readily use Sarebaas. The amount used in Kirkwall are a bit of a lore fail to me.

They very rarely and relunctantly do. And unlike mages, Qunari tech does not require lyrium / mana, does not have a risk of turning crazy, and considering how the mages are raised in Thedas, they have little military training and discipline.

Mages might provide more raw power, but I think Qunari tech has better military applications. And at the end, what forced the Qunari to withdraw was the massacre of civilians. Their armed forces were not even chipped.

The Qunari also rarely use the Sarebaas, but they used in in abundance in their invasion of Kirkwall back in the old days.