224 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Should be noted however, every dragon in game, even noncorrupted is pretty evil.  

poppycock.  There's nothing evil about any dragon you see in the game except for the corrupted Archdemon.  The most you can accuse them of is behaving as a typical predatory creature.  About as evil as a Bear.

The one High Dragon we see isn't even aggressive.  It must be provoked into a fight.

[marshalleck]

sagequeen wrote...

question: did you find your char was the major motivating factor here, or did you do the same across multiple plays?  i feel like my human noble would totally go for queen and sacrifice herself to protect al and the kingdom. i feel like my mage would more likely do anything to keep the guy and be like 'meh, demons? i've seen PLENTY of those - killed 'em too. what the hey?"

My human noble went along with it because...well, frankly, it was out of character for him. I just decided to step out of the game and make that choice to see what would happen.

My mage will make that decision though and it will be much more in character. He cares nothing for human lands or politics, much prefering natural order to social order. He resents the Circle, Templars, and Chantry--at first, because of their unfair treatment of his only (admittedly flawed) friend in the Tower, and later for realizing how much they hold mages back from reaching their true potential, out of fear and ignorance. To restore one (maybe more?) of the ancient forces of nature is a worthy and noble goal, especially if it could lead to a permanent end of the Blight (and the Chantry along with it).

Human methods have proven remarkably incapable of dealing with the Blight, almost catastrophically so. It's time to find another way.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 novembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[Sanasu]

I see several possibilities..



Morrigan is going to use the child like Flemeth was going to use her, or, Morrigan is a version of Flemeth. A clone, or some such, but a clone that has it's own personality. Kill the old me so the new me can continue on.



Alternately, what bothered me, and why I refused her "offer", was she seems to want nothing to do with Flemeth, aside from protecting herself from being taken by Flemeth. So why the sudden interest in "this is what Flemeth wanted from the begining"?

[MBirkhofer]

Sanasu wrote...

I see several possibilities..

Morrigan is going to use the child like Flemeth was going to use her, or, Morrigan is a version of Flemeth. A clone, or some such, but a clone that has it's own personality. Kill the old me so the new me can continue on.

Alternately, what bothered me, and why I refused her "offer", was she seems to want nothing to do with Flemeth, aside from protecting herself from being taken by Flemeth. So why the sudden interest in "this is what Flemeth wanted from the begining"?

Also, consider she was suprised and confused when Flemeth said to go with you in the beginning, and then at the end there, she suddenly acts like she knew all along she was supposed to go, and why.

[Noone of Importance]

things are though its implied but facts are not available that the seven may have goaded the Tevinter into assaulting heaven, (for which they got cast out as did the mages who became the darkspawn and seem to have a this need / drive to find the old gods (ahh still loyal to their bosses)



it is also suggested that the Seven gave mortals the power of magic, (at the maker's behest or not is another matter, assuming the maker exists at all)

[Taleroth]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Also, consider she was suprised and confused when Flemeth said to go with you in the beginning, and then at the end there, she suddenly acts like she knew all along she was supposed to go, and why.

As I recall, she wasn't suprised that she had to go.  She was surprised that she was going at that moment.   Implying she knew, she just didn't know when.

[Noone of Importance]

implying Flemeth had a plan and Morrigan now sees the plan and understands it, heck flemeth might be enough of a dragon god fanatic that bringing one back into the world awake and free of the taint is worth final death

[Dussan2]

JensenBakura wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Why do people keep calling it a demon? It'll just be a powerful dragon in a human body.

Can you be certain of that?

Dum dum DUM!!!!!

Only as certain as you are that Morrigan is trust worthy.  

There is a lot of lore I came across in the game that affected my choice:

Positive:

1) Morrigan claims the child will not posess the darkspawn taint, only the soul of the Old God.

2) The Old God in question is the "God of Beauty" - perhaps in his uncorrupted form he was a benevolent dragon god?

3) Morrigan shows a softer side if you romance her to the end - it is possible that under your influence she has "softened".  I was actually suprised that there were opportunities to "harden" Alistair and Leliana, but no obvious way of softening Morrigan, beyond her showing remorse at having to leave you (or if you make her leave early).

Negative:

1) Morrigan displays a very dark streak throughout the game, regardless of how noble you are.  She suggests you kill the elven slaves.  She favours slaughtering the mages.  She dabbles in blood magic.  All said, she doesn't really offer much evidence that she's anything other than a manipulative, power-hungry witch of the wilds.
 
2) Even if you romance her, her priority is always solely to complete the ritual.  Even at her softest, she still came across to me as having used you.  She even warns you early on that a relationship will end badly, so from day one she is committed to the idea of leaving you once you've done what she needs you to do.

3) Even before the Dragon's were tainted, the Chantry claims they were inciting humanity to overthrow the maker...so depending on how you view the maker, the dragons could be seen as evil even before the taint, which doesn't bode well for your offspring's temperment.

4) It's very easy to see how disasterous this could become down the road:

- If you are King, a dragon-spawned witch-rasied bastard has a claim to the throne of Ferelden.

- Even if you're not, the child is proof that when a sacrifice was needed (a sacrifice countless grey wardens have been prepared to carry out over the centuries) you chose to save your own hide AND risk a major future threat to Ferelden's stability.

- Morrigan come's right out and says she hopes to raise the child up to be a "symbol of freedom".  Take that as you will, it sounded to me like a future attempt to ressurect the old dragon cult.  If so, I can imagine the common folk seeing this as a major betrayal of the Chantry by their Grey Warden "Hero".

5) Lastly, dealing with Flemeth was a major step in stabilising the Kokari wilds region, and ending a centuries old threat the Templar's had been trying to fix for ages.  Giving Morrigan a child has the potential of rebooting the whole problem, on top of the fact that now a major player in Ferelden's leadership (your PC) has deep emotional ties to said witch and her child.

All in all, I think the best option is just to pony up and die a hero...or if you're really too attached to your character, let Alistair or Loghrain take the fall. 

I agree with almost everything you said.  But other things influenced me as well.

1.  Morrigan was a survivor whose morals were compromised earlier because of her expsoure to Flemeth. My "noble" influence allowed for a tempered outlook on life.  Especially as I didn't romance her but was her friend.  Her interactions with me were pretty open and nice on her part some of the time.

2.  Morrigan is neither good nor evil.  She is a cynical, practical, self serviing ****.  But not evil.  My kid being raised by someone who will teach he/she to survive and prosper without being a raving sociopath is not the worst thing in the world, also judging by the final scene she definitley has some human emotion churning in that sexy body so I do not doubt she will not have some feeling and care for the kid.  Her words were clear.  The soul of an old god.  Such things should be protected.  

3.  I needed Morrigan for the final battle.  If the price of her assistance was me knocking her up then I would **** myself out to that end.

4.  A potential threat vs a very real one.  The real one gets ti.  In the end I decided to trust Morrigan.  Even though she is out for her own ends, and the child looks to be a PART of those ends.  Her means to get there was to fight at my side and save my ass countless times.  It was the only thing to do.

5.  As for the Chant of Light.  What it says about the Blight sounds like complete BS.  Riordan noted that the Darkspawn search for the Old Gods buried under the earth.  So how do they find them?  and more importantly WHY.  There are too many questions and if Morrigan thinks she has the answers and is willing take a gamble on some other path then so be it.  

Finally.  At the end of it all if Morrigan thinks that she would get away with threatening what I saved she has another thing coming.  

[Wulphe]

Maybe I'm a fool, but in the end I felt like I could trust Morrigan. I had become friends with her and she seemed genuinely touched by our friendship, not to mention alot more innocent and fragile than she seems on the surface. It almost brought her to tears a couple times. After I convinced Alistair to do the ritual with her, I talked to her at the battle and told her "thank you for everything", again she seemed heart-broken and grateful for our friendship. I do think she is honest in expressing her feelings.

My guesses about the child:
-It's not evil, it's a pure Old God, which I'm not sure is even a god. It seems like the Old Gods were very powerful dragons (people could easily worship), but that does not make them a god like the Maker (whose presence is quite lacking, minus the Andraste's Ashes event. But then again, the Fade and spirits and magic could exist without the Maker).
-She will not attempt to seize the throne with it, she hates politics and people. Even a power-hungry tyrant has to deal with people. Not to mention Anora had Alistair renounce all claims to the throne, including that any offspring he has also will have no claim. Morrigan wanted the child reguardless of that.
-She may use it's body like Flemeth would have. That way she'd have all that power.
-She may use it to start a revolt against the Chantry, which I view as a good thing. I mean, she is an apostate after all.

I'm sure this is not the last I've heard of the child, but I'm not too worried. I'm actually more excited to see what happens. Maybe next game I can stand with Morrigan and her child against the Chantry's "rule" and for the freedom of the Circle. Or maybe, going with MBirkhofer, we'll defeat the darkspawn source together.

Modifié par Wulphe, 17 novembre 2009 - 06:56 .

[Ariella]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Ariella wrote...

First of all, we don't know that the Chantry was right about exactly what happened. However, we do know that this will destroy an Old God, of which there are only seven. So after this there are only 3 Old Gods left for the Darkspawn to infect. And after that, there's nothing.... All we know is what the Chantry has told us, what what happens went they're infected. We don't know anything of how the gods acted prior for an unbiased source. I can understand Morrigan, who isn't any form of believer, might want to save such a creature. It's the same impulse as she had to suggest mercy for Sten.

Maybe the Darkspawn always existed.  And it was the Old gods unchained, and uncorrupted that were gaurding against them.
But when whatever sealed the Old gods underground, be it the maker or the trickster, the darkspawn were left unchecked. and they found a way to corrupt the ones that were protecting the world from them.

Perhaps this free old god will be the only way to really stop the darkspawn.

Anything's possible. Maybe I'm stupid, but I trusted Morrigan. I liked her, and my rating with her was 100%. She came off to me like someone who was trying to preserve two things: the old God and the person she probably cared about most in the world. If it's possible to harden Alistair, isn't is also possible to er "soften" Morrigan? I think taking that into account and the things that Flemmish did to her, I don't think she'll follow the exact same path as Mommy Dearest.

[Driveninhifi]

I felt there were a lot of problems with her ending.



One, it completely ruins her character development in the romance case. Since we aren't given any hints as to why she won't allow the PC to come with her we can only speculate. The obvious answer is that the PC is tainted, and can't be allowed near the child. However that is unsatisfactory, as the game just contrived a method for us to survive killing the archdemon like 5 minutes earlier; so there's no reason there can't be a plot device to remove the taint. Wouldn't she want a powerful ally with her, especially if the PC also agrees with her on hating the Chantry, etc?



Secondly, she speaks of "duty" and things "she must do" which really, really do not fit with her character. There really is no indication she has any duty-bound streak at all. She has her worldview, sure, but there isn't much indication that she's out for anyone but herself, which makes the language at the end somewhat odd. It should have been foreshadowed better.



Making her a clone of Flemeth is a waste - we already have that character and she is developing away from that by the end of Origins.



Making her a purely tragic character is boring - it's really freaking obvious and has been done many times before. It's also frustrating for the player, as it places them in a situation they cannot win, which really isn't appropriate for a game where the PC is the most important individual in the world.

It's more interesting to make her human, and that piece of her only comes through in her relationship with the PC. An ending that lets her embrace that and isn't totally sappy is much more interesting.



What I don't understand: she seems like a person who takes what she wants, and she clearly wants the PC - so at what point does that win out for her?

[Dussan2]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I felt there were a lot of problems with her ending.

One, it completely ruins her character development in the romance case. Since we aren't given any hints as to why she won't allow the PC to come with her we can only speculate. The obvious answer is that the PC is tainted, and can't be allowed near the child. However that is unsatisfactory, as the game just contrived a method for us to survive killing the archdemon like 5 minutes earlier; so there's no reason there can't be a plot device to remove the taint. Wouldn't she want a powerful ally with her, especially if the PC also agrees with her on hating the Chantry, etc?

Secondly, she speaks of "duty" and things "she must do" which really, really do not fit with her character. There really is no indication she has any duty-bound streak at all. She has her worldview, sure, but there isn't much indication that she's out for anyone but herself, which makes the language at the end somewhat odd. It should have been foreshadowed better.

Making her a clone of Flemeth is a waste - we already have that character and she is developing away from that by the end of Origins.

Making her a purely tragic character is boring - it's really freaking obvious and has been done many times before. It's also frustrating for the player, as it places them in a situation they cannot win, which really isn't appropriate for a game where the PC is the most important individual in the world.
It's more interesting to make her human, and that piece of her only comes through in her relationship with the PC. An ending that lets her embrace that and isn't totally sappy is much more interesting.

What I don't understand: she seems like a person who takes what she wants, and she clearly wants the PC - so at what point does that win out for her?

First she does not WANT the PC.  She wants the Old God-Child.  Through the course of that she gained a friend/lover. 

Also she is completely duty bound.  She isn't a clone of Flemeth, she is Flemeth's intended vessel.  If you talk to after you kill Flemeth she explains that if Flemeth comes back she will fight her and this time she will have time to prepare herself against that end. 

Also remember that the taint WILL KILL the PC.  It will drive the PC mad and destroy them.  All Grey Warden's face this.  Her wanting to raise teh child alone could be many things.  The biggest reason is the most obvious and the most natural.  To protect the child.  She wants no other influence into this child's developement.

[Taleroth]

Dussan2 wrote...

Also remember that the taint WILL KILL the PC.  It will drive the PC mad and destroy them.  All Grey Warden's face this. 

*cough*Avernus*cough*

[Noone of Importance]

who managed to live for over a century by going the mad bloodmage demonologist route and as morrigan will say in the fade (if you send her in during the redcliff bit and choose confront demon)



even i know better than to do a deal with a demon

[GmanFresh]

you get to have sex. do it

[jimmyw404]

don't you want your son to be cool like this? http://media.photobu...Naruto_Cool.jpg

[Crackseed]

I just completed my first playthrough - I skipped her offer but plan to try it on another playthrough.

The 2 ending potions as a result are both very epic, but also very sad. True to form - while we can all hope for "happy peachy" endings, in a game with this kind of scope and decision making, you know there's always going to be something bittersweet, which lends more credence to it being a truly involving and epic game that based on your choice, you feel regret and humility in how the game ended.

My only real grumble is the "ultimate sacrifice" ending was too short and made me go "Blegh - that sucks" compared to the other ending >.>

[Eshaye]

Wulphe wrote...

Maybe I'm a fool, but in the end I felt like I could trust Morrigan. I had become friends with her and she seemed genuinely touched by our friendship, not to mention alot more innocent and fragile than she seems on the surface. It almost brought her to tears a couple times. After I convinced Alistair to do the ritual with her, I talked to her at the battle and told her "thank you for everything", again she seemed heart-broken and grateful for our friendship. I do think she is honest in expressing her feelings.

My guesses about the child:
-It's not evil, it's a pure Old God, which I'm not sure is even a god. It seems like the Old Gods were very powerful dragons (people could easily worship), but that does not make them a god like the Maker (whose presence is quite lacking, minus the Andraste's Ashes event. But then again, the Fade and spirits and magic could exist without the Maker).
-She will not attempt to seize the throne with it, she hates politics and people. Even a power-hungry tyrant has to deal with people. Not to mention Anora had Alistair renounce all claims to the throne, including that any offspring he has also will have no claim. Morrigan wanted the child reguardless of that.
-She may use it's body like Flemeth would have. That way she'd have all that power.
-She may use it to start a revolt against the Chantry, which I view as a good thing. I mean, she is an apostate after all.

I'm sure this is not the last I've heard of the child, but I'm not too worried. I'm actually more excited to see what happens. Maybe next game I can stand with Morrigan and her child against the Chantry's "rule" and for the freedom of the Circle. Or maybe, going with MBirkhofer, we'll defeat the darkspawn source together.

Basically this is how I viewed it as well. My character is an elven mage sick of having been put under the thumb of humans and templars alike for years. As a grey warden she's known freedom, courage and love, no way is she losing any of it.

Morrigan also ends up calling her a sister even, and so when her proposal came my character leaped for it. She is aware there may be dire consequences but she figures either herself or someone else will rise up to it and it's all just part of fate.

Morrigan also states when speaking of the old Gods that some things are worth save guarding. Or something along those lines, indicating she knows something about the Old Gods perhaps history has forgotten or altered.

About the Chantry and the Old Gods, if you read the mythology of the Dalish elves it gives an entirely new view point on what and who the 'Maker' really is too.

[MDarkmist]

Interesting read. Didn't come over to these forums to read any of this till done with the first round of the game. My char this playthrough was a female elf from the city and always tried to spare folks if it was possible. Was very friendly with Morrigan as well as Allistair.

Nearing the final battle, then after sparing Loghain, Allistair goes berserk so I gave the crown to Anora and he takes off, then refusing Morrigan's offer she splits. Great help they were.

In the final battle I ended up allowing Loghain to take the final blow and redeem himself. So my character "will be heard from again".

[Jacks-Up]

sagequeen wrote...

Okay, so I'm contemplating Morrigan's "offer" - I haven't gotten there (so please no major spoilers) but I'm contemplating how bad it will be to take it.

On the one hand, impregnating witch with demon child in order to save a life = good, right?

On the other hand, if the CG Beowulf and the Morte d'Arthur have taught us anything, it's that demon spawn of witches ALWAYS come back to haunt you in about 25 years.

Of course, I'm only living for 30, but that seems awfully selfish to unleash THAT on the world.

This is total speculation, but speculate with me - what exactly IS she taking off with her? Is this just a sort of queasy proposition, or the start of something really, really bad (like, epic "swooping")?

 

I don't think it will matter in the long run.   In the expanshion or DA2 they will simply Pick an ending for you that best suits for the story or start a new story all together and make you relevel a new character.

Remember BG1 had no effect on BG2 even if you imported and in NWN expansion you just simply started a new tale. ( it's called origins for a reason.)

If they ever plan on using Morrigan as a PC again than they will make it so you have to refuse her or she simply lost the child at birth or something Demon gods aren't Immortal and no one makes the final blow if it dies of natural causes it also would be very ironic.

[FFLB]

I also felt that Morrigan could be trusted, due to my PC's relationship with her. Of course, how one feels about all of this depends upon one's view of the institutions and background stories in the game, as well as one's own view of Morrigan. She's the practical type who watches out for herself and her own, which may or may not include the PC. I, personally, never saw her as being evil. I just took her occasional snide comments and seemingly ruthless suggestions as her way of expressing herself. None of the companions can truly be called evil unless you're viewing it from one of the in-game establishments' point of view.

[Creston918]

Jacks-Up wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Okay, so I'm contemplating Morrigan's "offer" - I haven't gotten there (so please no major spoilers) but I'm contemplating how bad it will be to take it.

On the one hand, impregnating witch with demon child in order to save a life = good, right?

On the other hand, if the CG Beowulf and the Morte d'Arthur have taught us anything, it's that demon spawn of witches ALWAYS come back to haunt you in about 25 years.

Of course, I'm only living for 30, but that seems awfully selfish to unleash THAT on the world.

This is total speculation, but speculate with me - what exactly IS she taking off with her? Is this just a sort of queasy proposition, or the start of something really, really bad (like, epic "swooping")?

 

I don't think it will matter in the long run.   In the expanshion or DA2 they will simply Pick an ending for you that best suits for the story or start a new story all together and make you relevel a new character.

Remember BG1 had no effect on BG2 even if you imported and in NWN expansion you just simply started a new tale. ( it's called origins for a reason.)

If they ever plan on using Morrigan as a PC again than they will make it so you have to refuse her or she simply lost the child at birth or something Demon gods aren't Immortal and no one makes the final blow if it dies of natural causes it also would be very ironic.

I'd like to point out that that no longer holds true for Bioware's games. EVERY choice you made in Mass Effect carries over into Mass Effect 2. Many of the choices in DA : O felt very similar to me, so I'm certain that all these choices are being saved into a nice little file somewhere, ready to be read when a potential sequel starts up.

[Driveninhifi]

Dussan2 wrote...
First she does not WANT the PC.  She wants the Old God-Child.  Through the course of that she gained a friend/lover. 

Also she is completely duty bound.  She isn't a clone of Flemeth, she is Flemeth's intended vessel.  If you talk to after you kill Flemeth she explains that if Flemeth comes back she will fight her and this time she will have time to prepare herself against that end. 

Also remember that the taint WILL KILL the PC.  It will drive the PC mad and destroy them.  All Grey Warden's face this.  Her wanting to raise teh child alone could be many things.  The biggest reason is the most obvious and the most natural.  To protect the child.  She wants no other influence into this child's developement.

She wants the kid when you first meet her, yeah. But through the course of the game she DOES want the PC.

She's not duty bound until the deus ex machina at the end. Nothing she does indicates that she is - it's a total cop-out to hook you into the sequel. She's "I do what I want; I love you but am afraid to admit it and face my feelings" and then the game creates a plot device to both a) have you survive the final battle and bring a reason for you to chase after her regardless if you are in a romance or not.

If the game can introduce a magic ritual right at the end that lets you survive something no Grey Warden has ever survived, then the plot can introduce a method to free you from the taint. Or let you master it.

The ending has numerous issues - it doesn't mean the game is bad or that the writing is all bad; it just means the ending has issues and could have been handled much better. And deus ex machina is like the oldest trick in the book.

[sagefic]

i could *almost* be okay with morrigan having the dragon-baby if i was playing a male PC. then it's YOUR kid - your choice.



but i felt that with the fem PC it's just really WAY more twisted. you're having to persuade someone else to offer themselves up FOR you. that's what just doesn't sit right with me. if there was some way the fem PC could...yeah, i don't even really want to think too much about how that would work, but if YOU could somehow complete this ritual with morrigan and send her on her way and thus save yourself and alistair - okay, i'd consider it. but somehow asking someone else to give up HIS child - god though it may be - just seems wrong.

[Kendaric Varkellen]

Dussan2 wrote...

4.  A potential threat vs a very real one.  The real one gets it.  In the end I decided to trust Morrigan.  

That was how I viewed it as well.
With just 3 Grey Wardens present in the battle, the risk of all of us perishing before we could slay the archdemon was too great to refuse her offer. With Morrigan's ritual, however, the Blight could have been ended even without any of us alive if need be. It was a chance I, as a Grey Warden, would have to take.