224 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

Driveninhifi wrote...

If the game can introduce a magic ritual right at the end that lets you survive something no Grey Warden has ever survived, then the plot can introduce a method to free you from the taint. Or let you master it.

The ending has numerous issues - it doesn't mean the game is bad or that the writing is all bad; it just means the ending has issues and could have been handled much better. And deus ex machina is like the oldest trick in the book.

true. this is why i thought that the landsmeet was a TOTALLY rational choice. it makes complete sense that given your background, your options may be limited. in an overly perfect world, a city-elf-mage could set themselves up as king or queen. ferelden is not that world. you can only do that if you're a noble, and then only by marrying someone with more legitimate claims.

so be it. that makes perfect sense.

but the demon-child seems so....arbitrary. it doesn't follow from what came before, it gets you out of death, but not the taint, it completely compromises morrigan's char, also.

personally, i LOVED her. she's a total rhymes-with-witch, and yet i loved it. she's a strong woman who goes for what she wants, is sassy, smart and in the end she...becomes a baby vessel. okay, so not cool. as a girl, i was cheering for her. now i find her just...silly.

[Jacks-Up]

Kendaric Varkellen wrote...

Dussan2 wrote...

4.  A potential threat vs a very real one.  The real one gets it.  In the end I decided to trust Morrigan.  

That was how I viewed it as well.
With just 3 Grey Wardens present in the battle, the risk of all of us perishing before we could slay the archdemon was too great to refuse her offer. With Morrigan's ritual, however, the Blight could have been ended even without any of us alive if need be. It was a chance I, as a Grey Warden, would have to take.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no way to Keep her for the Final battle if you don't  accept the ritual am I right?

[Noone of Importance]

but the thing is you dont know for a fact she's gonna run off if you say no, playing the hindsight game only works for the prescient

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, well after replaying the ending several ways on from the Landsmeet, I thought that two of the final conversations with Morrigan were interesting (female elf mage romancing Alistair btw - agreed to Morrigan's offer and got a very happy ending imo - although I'll have to modify that to pick the rebuilding the Grey Wardens as a possibility  for maximum happiness  ). Here's that bit from the conversation with all the companions after choosing your party for the final battle:

Morrigan: So we head into the city together, as it should be.
Morrigan: Once this is done, no matter how it turns out I will be gone. You are aware of this, yes?
Player: Then let me thank you now, for what you've done.
Morrigan: You...are most welcome. It is, the very least, I could offer you.
Morrigan: (sigh) Allow me to say one thing before we go.
Morrigan: I knew nothing of friendship before we met. And I will always consider you as such.
Morrigan: Live well, my friend. Live gloriously.
Morrigan: Now let us see this finally done. The archdemon awaits.

If the facial expressions and her tone of voice were accurate  (and I think they were spot-on for every other character's emotional responses), Morrigan seems somewhat saddened/emotional and is apparently genuine about what she says.

I found the mirror and gave it to her at some point during the game, so maybe that does soften her up after all even though she never shows it otherwise. Of course, this probably  comes up regardless of the approval rating, but who knows (I did, however, get a different response from Alistair after making sure he wasn't king - totally different from all the assorted "sad" endings - woohoo).

Also, if you talk to her about last night and then thank her again, she seems really surprised/taken aback and says you're welcome and thanks you in return. Absolutely not enthused about Alistair & Morrigan, but it was what was necessary to save Alistair/my characater AND get a happy ending, so I could live with it. Plus, based on those two dialogues (the one before Fort Drakon and the "about last night" one). I'm now of the opinion that she's not quite the mean, nasty b-word everyone thinks she is (just based on how she said what she said). Sure, she's prickly, doesn't get along with people in general and is duplicitous/scheming, but she is capable of friendship/sentiment even though she hides it most of the time.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:20 .

[Red Viking]

I don't think we're in any danger of that baby coming back to haunt us.



Why? Because Superman will save us! Didn't you guys see that random encounter?

[Jacks-Up]

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think we're in any danger of that baby coming back to haunt us.

Why? Because Superman will save us! Didn't you guys see that random encounter?

What did you do different than me?  I only got Batman.

[RunCDFirst]

While her offer is rather 'deus ex' can you imagine the uproar had there been no option to save yourself and Alistair? I felt that the Morrigan option is fair in order to both please the fanbase and yet still keep the narrative solid.



I mean, without the child, there's 0 reason for Morrigan to go with you initially and there's 0 reason for Flemeth to save you.



As it stands, I'd never give Morrigan the child. I can't foresee any good reason for her to abandon you and for her to refuse you from seeing the child. That woman's up to no good, but you were warned very early about her bad intentions.



If you want the super happy ending, just sacrifice the third Grey Warden.

[Red Viking]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think we're in any danger of that baby coming back to haunt us.

Why? Because Superman will save us! Didn't you guys see that random encounter?

What did you do different than me?  I only got Batman.

Wait, there's a Batman easter egg too?  Where?

[UnAffectedFiddle]

As I posted in another thread, the choice is do you doom something unique in nature or do you save it, simply because it may eventually be the only one of its kind left. Morrigan DESPISES the Chantry and all it represents, slavery and death for anyone who does not wish to follow its laws. Elven nation, destroyed because they worshipped different gods. The ending mentions them attempting to call a Crusad eon the Dwarves if you help the Dwarf set up a Chantry.

They erased Elvish history in helping Andraste to keep them as a lower class, they twisted the words of the Chant of Light to effectively imprison EVERY magical user in the nation and violently hunt down and kill all those who dont obey them. The Maker also cast down all the Old Gods and then supposedly turned his back on humannity...assumingg he actually exists.

Morrigan and Flemeth are two primal forces attempting to keep alive one of the rawest Primal powers left somewhat alive. It is something to challenge the status quo enforced upon the world by an uncaring and zealot order. You must realise by now, they are very much about the "Old Ways".

Modifié par UnAffectedFiddle, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:30 .

[Driveninhifi]

RunCDFirst wrote...

While her offer is rather 'deus ex' can you imagine the uproar had there been no option to save yourself and Alistair? I felt that the Morrigan option is fair in order to both please the fanbase and yet still keep the narrative solid.

I mean, without the child, there's 0 reason for Morrigan to go with you initially and there's 0 reason for Flemeth to save you.

As it stands, I'd never give Morrigan the child. I can't foresee any good reason for her to abandon you and for her to refuse you from seeing the child. That woman's up to no good, but you were warned very early about her bad intentions.

If you want the super happy ending, just sacrifice the third Grey Warden.

But it doesn't really do either. Sure, you can get a happy ending if you are female and romancing Alistair, or male romancing Leilana. A deus ex machina hasn't been a piece of "solid narrative" for thousands of years - it really comes out of nowhere and hits a very false note. If they really wanted to please the fanbase, then they would have had the male PC-Morrigan romance do something like having the two disappear together without a trace. If they really want a bittersweet general ending, they should have had you just die and Morrigan take the kid as well.

Morrigan is the avatar of the world - it seems they were either hell-bent on a bittersweet ending with her, or they really wanted the hook for the sequel. I think forcing a player into a bittersweet ending in an open game like this is not fair, but I'm fine with a sequel hook if it's done well. But this feels forced, because she was developing nicely as a character and then it abruptly stops. And that's a shame because they really missed out on a chance to finish fleshing out a character that could be one of the best-developed ones ever in this style of game. Hopefully she continues with the PC in the story's continuation, otherwise she'll just be another on the pile of videogame characters that were almost there.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:28 .

[Dtelm]

I'd hardly call it a Dues ex Machina. Its not like morrigan comes and solves all your problems. Just allows you to kill the archdemon without either you or allistair dying.



Sure that can help things to work out, but in that case, is darth vader killing the emperor a dues ex machina? Is the eagles coming and saving frodo a dues ex machina?



No, No and No. I'm not sure you fully grasp the term.



As far as a bittersweet ending, its there no matter what your choice. Either you die, or allistair dies, or you spawn a demonchild.



Additionally, your two ideas for endings that would "please the fanbase" sound exceedingly retarded. and Morrigan doesnt run away with you because despite whatever she feels for you, she does not allow herself to get too attached. It is her plan from the start to take your child and run.

[Eshaye]

Dtelm wrote...

I'd hardly call it a Dues ex Machina. Its not like morrigan comes and solves all your problems. Just allows you to kill the archdemon without either you or allistair dying.

Sure that can help things to work out, but in that case, is darth vader killing the emperor a dues ex machina? Is the eagles coming and saving frodo a dues ex machina?

No, No and No. I'm not sure you fully grasp the term.

As far as a bittersweet ending, its there no matter what your choice. Either you die, or allistair dies, or you spawn a demonchild.

Additionally, your two ideas for endings that would "please the fanbase" sound exceedingly retarded. and Morrigan doesnt run away with you because despite whatever she feels for you, she does not allow herself to get too attached. It is her plan from the start to take your child and run.

Agree with this, in a way it reminds me of the choice in Mass Effect to kill or not to kill the insect Queen. You are either exterminating her kind or trusting her to teach her young better... Neither choices are good or bad, and one may or may not have consequences. In this case you either sacrifice yourself, a friend/lover or consequences be damned and let Morrigan 'help' you.

If anyting this ending has the potential to be the most interesting if ever it's brought into a sequel/expansion.

[Thor Rand Al]

JensenBakura wrote...
All in all, I think the best option is just to pony up and die a hero...or if you're really too attached to your character, let Alistair or Loghrain take the fall. 

Hahah if you can keep them alive that is.  That last battles pretty nasty.

[RunCDFirst]

Driveninhifi wrote...
But it doesn't really do either. Sure, you can get a happy ending if you are female and romancing Alistair, or male romancing Leilana. A deus ex machina hasn't been a piece of "solid narrative" for thousands of years - it really comes out of nowhere and hits a very false note. If they really wanted to please the fanbase, then they would have had the male PC-Morrigan romance do something like having the two disappear together without a trace. If they really want a bittersweet general ending, they should have had you just die and Morrigan take the kid as well.

Morrigan is the avatar of the world - it seems they were either hell-bent on a bittersweet ending with her, or they really wanted the hook for the sequel. I think forcing a player into a bittersweet ending in an open game like this is not fair, but I'm fine with a sequel hook if it's done well. But this feels forced, because she was developing nicely as a character and then it abruptly stops. And that's a shame because they really missed out on a chance to finish fleshing out a character that could be one of the best-developed ones ever in this style of game. Hopefully she continues with the PC in the story's continuation, otherwise she'll just be another on the pile of videogame characters that were almost there.

But it doesn't really come out of nowhere. You must have suspected Morrigan was up to something. I mean, it's very suspicious that Flemeth just sends her daughter out with a Grey Warden, or that you're rescued from Ostagar at all. Wynne comments on the fact that Morrigan is just using you and other party members cast their suspicions of Morrigan for a lot of the game.

And the only problem her child solves is a problem that is introduced literally minutes before she presents this solution.


As a deus ex machina, it's a pretty poor one. And one that is unnecessary since there are other solutions to the problem. So, I guess, technically it isn't a deus ex machina at all. As a player, you know they have something planned with her. If anything, the climax of her personal story is a little... anti-climatic. 

[Gold Dragon]

Meh. I think she wants the child simply as a trap for Flemming's return. Trap Fleming within the child, put the child in some sort of permanent stasis, and be totally free forever. All the "Reborn God" and saving you & Alistair is just bait to lure you in.



And if you refuse, what stopped her from finding another man and seducing him behind your back?

[screwoffreg]

I just agree with the above poster and hope somehow this is resolved.  The whole reasoning behind her leaving is so selfish and evil that it destroys any character development she has during the game.  Then again, maybe that is the point...that she is what she is like the scorpion and the frog story goes.  Whether its a DLC or a sequel, I hope my character gets one last chance to see her, for better or worse.  Even if it means they die together, as it should be.

[Driveninhifi]

Dtelm wrote...

I'd hardly call it a Dues ex Machina. Its not like morrigan comes and solves all your problems. Just allows you to kill the archdemon without either you or allistair dying.

Sure that can help things to work out, but in that case, is darth vader killing the emperor a dues ex machina? Is the eagles coming and saving frodo a dues ex machina?

No, No and No. I'm not sure you fully grasp the term.

As far as a bittersweet ending, its there no matter what your choice. Either you die, or allistair dies, or you spawn a demonchild.

Additionally, your two ideas for endings that would "please the fanbase" sound exceedingly retarded. and Morrigan doesnt run away with you because despite whatever she feels for you, she does not allow herself to get too attached. It is her plan from the start to take your child and run.

It is quite literally a deus ex machina - it's a plot device out of nowhere that conveniently solves a problem so the sequel can happen. How is that not? Especially if you are romancing Leilana or Alistair - the only thing standing between you and a happy ending is one of you dying, which is explained away by this sudden "hey there's some magic to prevent that, surprise!" There's absolutely nothing that indicates something like that exists prior to the ending - and if you accept this ritual exists you also have to accept the possibility that there could be rituals to solve just about every other problem you've got (finding morrigan, ridding yourself of the taint, etc). Not to say those powers shouldn't exist in the world, it's just that introducing them suddenly makes it seem like the goalposts are moving - and that makes the world seem internally inconsistent.
(I'd also argue that the eagles saving Frodo is also an example of it. Darth Vader I'll agree with - but that was also foreshadowed based on several conversations earlier. ) 

And yes, it is her plan to take the child from the start, but she a) does get attached and is very pragmatic and will likely be hunted by the Chantry for carrying this child. Wouldn't she want her lover, who by this point is a very powerful and formidable warrior around to help her? Powerful sorceress or not, she's still pregnant and she knows the PC is loyal to her...it doesn't make sense unless there's something like some outside influence forcing her hand, or he can't be near because of the taint (but that can also be solved by some magic ritual). Which is again an argument against inconsistency. 

Not to mention the fact that your PC can influence just about everything, even the most stubborn people, just by talking to them or threatening them. And yet, that is also removed at the end - which feels a bit forced.

I should be clear: I think Morrigan leaving makes sense from a general story perspective, but it does not necessarily feel respectful of the player's choices and abilities.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:34 .

[EatinMcRib]

Taleroth wrote...

*cough*Avernus*cough*

Indeed, if you chose to drink the potion. IIRC, it delays the taint indefinitely, besides letting you control your own blood at will.

As to Morrigan's motives, I think the reason she doesn't want you to find her is that whatever she has planned, she's sure you will NOT like it, regardless of your worldview. Coming from Morrigan, that's BAD ****ing news. It gave me a massive sinking feeling when I went through with it out of sheer curiousity.

If that doesn't scream "Faustian", I don't know what does.

Modifié par EatinMcRib, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:36 .

[vocalemuse]

To me it seemed like Morrigan simply wanted to raise her child alone in the forests somewhere, she was never a civilization type and considering I don't want kids myself in real life... my character had no issues with never being able to see it again. Alistair doesn't want to see it either, just know it's not going to be used against Ferelden so that's good enough for me! xD

Modifié par vocalemuse, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:37 .

[Driveninhifi]

EatinMcRib wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

*cough*Avernus*cough*

Indeed, if you chose to drink the potion. IIRC, it delays the taint indefinitely, besides letting you control your own blood at will.

As to Morrigan's motives, I think the reason she doesn't want you to find her is that whatever she has planned, she's sure you will NOT like it, regardless of your worldview. Coming from Morrigan, that's BAD ****ing news. It gave me a massive sinking feeling when I went through with it out curiousity.

This is a bad assumption though, because your character can literally be ANYTHING. You can be super evil, willing to burn down the world for fun. You don't exactly have any responsibilities after killing the archdemon in the Morrigan romance case. Maybe you'd help her because you want to cause havoc? The story can't project on your character this way, and I know Bioware holds this tenet dear - Mr Gaider has said as much many times.

[ZGold]

hmm...I find one thing very interesting, especially because if anyone else has considered it they seem to be keeping very quiet...



imo, Morrigan is very much a 'will get what I want, whatever it takes' character, so it rings true to me that she offers you the 'way out' at the 11th hour when her bargaining point is strongest (especially if you're in a romance with Alistair) and you are still reeling from Riordan's revelation about the sacrifice involved in killing an archdemon. Now, if you accept her offer, you and Alistair (and Loghain if he's still alive) live, but she vanishes off with the child which, I agree, is surely going to be something that has consequences, for good or ill.



If, on the other hand, you decline her offer, WTF is with her quietly going her own way?



I'm sorry, but that just seems too out of character to be believeable. If you're a male character or not in a romance with Alistair, I could see her slipping you/him/Loghain some kind of drug or using magic to effectively rape you/him/Loghain and get what she wants.



If you're a female in a relationship with Alistair...she's a SHAPESHIFTER. Your character doesn't get the option to pay Alistair a visit that night unless you go to persuade him to sleep with Morrigan, so why wouldn't she just appear as your character and trick him? Yes, I know the game only gives you the spider/bear/swarm options, but she blatantly turns into a dog or wolf in the cutscene where you say no, so clearly she has other forms she's been keeping quiet.



There's no conversation during the end battles that I've come across that supports this idea, but there's none that rules it out either.



After that, well; I reached the 'final' battle at about 50% completion (not realising the achievements count towards this score) and was fully expecting more campaign (I think I sat staring at the screen going 'wtf?' for about half an hour). Now I'm hoping that there will be a sequel/dlc that will progress from that end battle and the choices made just before/during it. If you accept Morrigan's offer that's not difficult because no one dies. If you didn't, however, I could just see whoever killed the archdemon waking up somewhere (either with other party members or not), having amnesia maybe, but knowing that something, despite the blight being over, went terribly, terribly wrong.

[gotthammer]

Just finished my first play through (around 110 hours... *sigh* great game)

I was surprised, and amused, by Morrigan's offer, and how it resolves in the end. The bit about the ring in the end was just nice.

I actually found it 'touching' that one or two dialogue options at the post-coronation allow you to state that you'll wish to find/pursue her.

If anything, the way it resolved made me more excited/eager for a sequel.



As a sidenote: I'm a Farscape fan, and really aimed for Morrigan to be one of my 'key' NPCs from the beginning.

*spoiler for the aforementioned show below*



The whole 'I'm leaving and pregnant' bit was quite surprising as it felt similar to what occurred in the show. I actually blurted out "Holy ****! She'll be pulling an Aeryn Sun on me?!?" (in reference to the end of season 3).

[Jacks-Up]

_____o_O___ wrote...

DA 2 Help raise the god child.

I could totally see the PC pulling a Darth Vader lol

"NO I AM YOUR FARTHER" especially if you're a Mage "I will complete you're training" ROFL

It would ruin everything but it would be ok because it would be so funny.

[EatinMcRib]

I just hope Bioware gives an answer to this down the road. I was fully expecting to move on after playing this game, but that loose end is like a splinter in my mind.

Oh well, time to sex up Zevran as a dwarf man. Choo choo!

Modifié par EatinMcRib, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:47 .