224 réponses à ce sujet

[Saurel]

Jacks-Up wrote...

Best case scenario - You get a Tevinter Demi-God (I wouldn't be surprised by a sequel where you play this character, which is BG all over again)

That would be worst case scenario in my books.

Ditto. Not to the existence of such a being, but playing as them

[tkaz85]

I never played BG or BG2, so I wouldn't mind playing as the god-child. However, given that nearly everyone on these forums thinks that BG and BG2 are some of the best cRPGs ever to be created, would borrowing plot elements from them really be that bad?

Modifié par tkaz85, 19 novembre 2009 - 06:48 .

[Saurel]

Some elements , no. The main plot point, yes.

[Jacks-Up]

Saurel wrote...

Some elements , no. The main plot point, yes.

This however with that said if they did a bit of a ripoff of a Frostmourne plot for an evil alternative I probably wouldn't mined it. Not like Blizzard hasn't ripped off other peoples ideas.

[Driveninhifi]

They are great, definitely. However, they already exist. There's no reason to create a whole new world and then retell a plot that you've already told - which is why I would hope we won't be playing as the child in a future game.



You've just spent 50 something hours developing a character, and there are clearly things for him/her to do in the world. Especially if your lover just ran off with your baby while implying she both doesn't want to leave and would not be sad if you found her.



There's still more story to be told - the game even says as much at the very end. It would be incredibly frustrating to not play through it. Wouldn't you be disappointed hear second hand? There's too much of a chance to think, "Wait, there's no way I would do that."

[Elwoodw]

Dammit, we NEED to know.

[Loregothe]

I do not believe in the no win scenario. I would not choose to die to prevent a potential problem later. You deal with the problem now, and then you deal with the problem later IF it comes up. If there is no problem later then you died for nothing, if there is, there is no proof your death would have prevented it. Because you are alive you can at least work on dealing with it. Suicide is cowardly. Justifying it by saying there is a greater good is just a cop out.



Some themes from WW2 that deal with this subject.



"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton



The Kamikaze believed they could stem the tide of the war by sacrificing themselves. How did that work out for them?

[Jacks-Up]

Loregothe wrote...

I do not believe in the no win scenario. I would not choose to die to prevent a potential problem later. You deal with the problem now, and then you deal with the problem later IF it comes up. If there is no problem later then you died for nothing, if there is, there is no proof your death would have prevented it. Because you are alive you can at least work on dealing with it. Suicide is cowardly. Justifying it by saying there is a greater good is just a cop out.

Some themes from WW2 that deal with this subject.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton

The Kamikaze believed they could stem the tide of the war by sacrificing themselves. How did that work out for them?

They lost.

[sagefic]

Loregothe wrote...

I do not believe in the no win scenario. I would not choose to die to prevent a potential problem later. You deal with the problem now, and then you deal with the problem later IF it comes up. If there is no problem later then you died for nothing, if there is, there is no proof your death would have prevented it. Because you are alive you can at least work on dealing with it. Suicide is cowardly. Justifying it by saying there is a greater good is just a cop out.

Some themes from WW2 that deal with this subject.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." George S. Patton

The Kamikaze believed they could stem the tide of the war by sacrificing themselves. How did that work out for them?

i can almost be convinced to give morrigan the child EXCEPT if playing as the fem pc, it's not mine.

THAT, i think, is where the game feels hugely imbalanced in this question.

male PC: your child, your decision, you are clearly NOT related to morrigan. so the question becomes do you trust her to a) raise your child have the child not be ultimate evil and/or c) you can deal with the problem later

but with a fem PC the problems are: a) asking someone else to do the ritual FOR you (either romance option this is true). if romancing alistair, this is compounded that it's YOUR man and you have to convince him. it's not that he says "oh, hey, i don't want you do die so i'll do this" now, i can see that the point was to show he doesn't secretly want morrigan, but that was obvious from how much they hate each other. but the fact remains that you have to persuade someone else to act on your behalf so then you're giving away someone else's child to morrigan.  and then there's the whole bit about her raising the child and it not being evil. oh, and morrigan and alistair might be siblings. gehhh

so again, as a male PC, god-baby is an option and even comes across as making a leap of faith to save the grey wardens, yourself, and your best friend.

but as a fem PC, it comes across as a potentially dangerous and selfish bid to keep your lover. 

i was just playing through some conversations with wynne - who, granted, can be a little preachy, but in hindsight she totally sees something like this coming. she is clearly trying to warn the pc that one can't allow love to make them selfish at the critical moment.

but darn, good writing on bioware's part and i'm SO glad they did away with the good/evil scale. i like that you just don't know if your decision was right or not.

[Driveninhifi]

Wynne does see something coming - but she can also tell you she thinks your relationship is good for both of you (male PC with Morrigan case). You also may want to consider that Wynne is very religious on the Chantry side of things. Imagine a sequel where you can choose to take Morrigan's side and attempt to resurrect the Old Gods. You'd probably have to fight Wynne, Leilana and others. Which would be awesome - I'd love it if you had to make a choice like that and have it pit you against former allies. It's even conceivable you could convince Alistair to help you since he's not really the largest Chantry fan out there. (though maybe not, since he also really hates Morrigan)

[Alexandus]

It will not be a "demon" child. The taint of the archdemon was undone by the fresh, minty pure soul it was put into. As I understood it from Morrigan, it will be the old god as it was before it was imprisoned by the maker and then corrupted by the darkspawn. Neither good, nor evil.

[Jacks-Up]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Wynne does see something coming - but she can also tell you she thinks your relationship is good for both of you (male PC with Morrigan case). You also may want to consider that Wynne is very religious on the Chantry side of things. Imagine a sequel where you can choose to take Morrigan's side and attempt to resurrect the Old Gods. You'd probably have to fight Wynne, Leilana and others. Which would be awesome - I'd love it if you had to make a choice like that and have it pit you against former allies. It's even conceivable you could convince Alistair to help you since he's not really the largest Chantry fan out there. (though maybe not, since he also really hates Morrigan)

Wynne disagrees with your romance with anyone from what I her so it just sounds like she's an old hag.

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:49 .

[Driveninhifi]

She definitely starts off the Morrigan one with "you will regret this" but softens to "oh she smiles at you all the time, i think you are good for each other." I think she tells you you will hurt Leilana.



I don't think she disagrees with the female PC-Alistair relationship. Though I haven't done it myself, so I don't know. I did see a clip where she is ribbing Alistair for staring at the PC's ass, which is hilarious.

[Meloncatts]

So Morrigan wants to have a child who will symbolize freedom and independence from the restraint of other authorities. Given her animosity towards the Chantry I believe, gentlemen and ladies, we have a far greater threat than the Darkspawn on the horizon.

We face Martin Luther [Who, like in real life, is imbued with the soul of Aphrodite or Apollo and is the result of a union between a Knight of the Round Table and Morgan le Fay]. We face a Protestant Reformation of Thedas.

The Maker have mercy on us all.

I'm Kidding.

Modifié par Meloncatts, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:43 .

[Xaila]

Driveninhifi wrote...
I don't think she disagrees with the female PC-Alistair relationship. Though I haven't done it myself, so I don't know. I did see a clip where she is ribbing Alistair for staring at the PC's ass, which is hilarious.

She did a little for me.  She was worried that my PC would end up breaking his heart since he was so naive about matters of the heart.  Later on she sees how happy it makes him and changes her tone though

[CaptBurn]

If you read the codex's and other available lore out there, you can quickly determine the nature of an 'old god' and their role in the world.



You said you didn't want to know everything (spoilers) so I won't say much, but 'old gods' are not really good things. Basically, she would be creating another Flemeth for lack of a better analogy.

[Tamerlane94]

i turned her down aswell, soon as i found out the only way to kill an archdemon i kinda had a bad feeling about the way it was gonna end :-(

ended up sacrificing myself tho ofc i really didnt want too....strange thing is, it wasnt because i was so attached to my char (altho i am ) but mainly because id promised Leiliana that we would go exploring the world together and thought she would be pretty devasted if i died......yea i guess deep down im kinda of a romantic softy even wen it coms to rpg games and pixels (where was the cliche yet satisfying final scene between the PC and leiliana when u knew you would end up dying, or even wen u where dying ?)

awesome game but too me the ending felt unfinished, rushed and missing those vital elements of heroic fantasy storytelling when the hero sacrifices all.

[Driveninhifi]

CaptBurn wrote...


If you read the codex's and other available lore out there, you can quickly determine the nature of an 'old god' and their role in the world.

You said you didn't want to know everything (spoilers) so I won't say much, but 'old gods' are not really good things. Basically, she would be creating another Flemeth for lack of a better analogy.

That's if you believe the Old Gods actually told the Telvinter mages to invade heaven. Remember: the Codex is mostly stuff from Chantry monks, etc. It's definitely biased and the parts that aren't are talking about things second or third hand. No one (except Mr Gaider, of course) actually knows what happened with Telvinter and the City in the Fade.

[durasteel]

sagequeen wrote...

oh, and morrigan and alistair might be siblings. gehhh

Wait... what?  I've read both books and finished the game twice, and I never got that.  What makes you think that Morrigan might have a parent in common with Alistair?

[Super_Fr33k]

Agni had a lot of good points (find and read his post in this thread if you haven't), and I think he has the most accurate interpretation of Morrigan's character. By nature I tend to play sacreligious PCs, so I was very much on Morrigan's side as an unorthodox, manipulative city elf rogue. Nevertheless, it was a real gut punch to discover that a maxed coercion skill and a really high cunning score ( around 40, I think) gave me no options to alter the arrangement of Morrigan's deal, especially with maxed approval and the romance. I think the writers made Morrigan behave unrealistically to make the ritual seem a very dangerous, possibly evil choice and force a bittersweet ending.



(As an aside, I'm glad the final boss was easy, I had spent all my money pimping out myself and Morrigan, and Wynne sucked hard.)



I think when people call Morrigan's offer "deus ex machina," they aren't referring to the ritual itself so much as the unflinching terms of the ritual. It is illogical that Morrigan does not trust you to help raise the child in any circumstance, or even discuss fully her motives for wanting it. It's here actually that I have to diverge from other people that think Morrigan had a master plan of cleansing nature or defeating the darkspawn for good. She never hints at the ritual, or a deeper understanding of the darkspawn, and she often seemed to desire power simply for power's sake (sacrificing slaves in the alienage and protecting the anvil of the void come to mind). For her to spring the ritual on you, out of nowhere, really makes it seem like she hasn't fully considered what she's unleashing or if she's capable of controlling it. That's why I refused it and bit the big hero bullet, despite wanting her to have my non-old god/possibly demon babies.



I want DLC that gives me some bargaining power as step one, Bioware.



As far as sequels/expansions, I think it would be too BG-esque to actually play the possibly cleansed old god. Better instead to have it as a force the PC has to choose to destroy or assist. And, if no one performed the ritual, you could have this cool opening where you're in the fade fighting with the god's essence. Maybe have Morrigan resurrect/reincarnate the PC/Alistair or Loghain accidentally while trying to recreate the old god. Contrived? Ok, yeah. Awesome though? Overwhelmingly.

[Thanaeon]

I considered the offer for some time but finally decided on a negative answer. The point that tipped the scales was this:



The darkspawn have a proven track record of being able to turn old gods into archdemons. Were I to help give (re)birth to an old god, I'd simply make it possible for there to be yet another Blight.

[gotthammer]

Thanaeon wrote...

I considered the offer for some time but finally decided on a negative answer. The point that tipped the scales was this:

The darkspawn have a proven track record of being able to turn old gods into archdemons. Were I to help give (re)birth to an old god, I'd simply make it possible for there to be yet another Blight.

Wasn't that primarily because the Old Gods were sleeping? Wouldn't it be a different case if Morrigan were to bring one to the world (and teach it/him/her)?

[Driveninhifi]

gotthammer wrote...

Thanaeon wrote...

I considered the offer for some time but finally decided on a negative answer. The point that tipped the scales was this:

The darkspawn have a proven track record of being able to turn old gods into archdemons. Were I to help give (re)birth to an old god, I'd simply make it possible for there to be yet another Blight.

Wasn't that primarily because the Old Gods were sleeping? Wouldn't it be a different case if Morrigan were to bring one to the world (and teach it/him/her)?

Yes, I don't think you can equate a sleeping trapped Old God with whatever Morrigan is carrying.
Though it does make me think of another reason Morrigan could have to leave: darkspawn can sense the taint in the PC and could conceivably find the PC, her, and the child that way. Still does not explain why she does not simply tell you this, but it makes some sense. I still think it would be easier for her to defend herself with the PC's help, but we shall see what the story brings....

[gotthammer]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Yes, I don't think you can equate a sleeping trapped Old God with whatever Morrigan is carrying.
Though it does make me think of another reason Morrigan could have to leave: darkspawn can sense the taint in the PC and could conceivably find the PC, her, and the child that way. Still does not explain why she does not simply tell you this, but it makes some sense. I still think it would be easier for her to defend herself with the PC's help, but we shall see what the story brings....

I kinda felt 'mixed' about that as well. Wouldn't having the PC along actually be more 'practical'?

Or is it something as 'simple' (or 'complex') as emotions: she knows what she 'has' to do (perhaps as far as what she's been taught by Flemeth regarding the Old Gods), but she doesn't know how to deal w/ emotions pertaining to the PC (i.e., if you 'romanced' her. Heck, maybe even if you didn't).

Bah. I still think this 'gets pregnant then goes away' thing is too familiar.

[sagefic]

durasteel wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

oh, and morrigan and alistair might be siblings. gehhh

Wait... what?  I've read both books and finished the game twice, and I never got that.  What makes you think that Morrigan might have a parent in common with Alistair?

i was reading in a post - this thread, i think - where someone was saying that flemeth was once visited by king maric. but if that's NOT the case, i think i could take her offer. otherwise, it's just not going to happen.

so is that NOT the case? haven't finished game and never read the books.