32 réponses à ce sujet

[Malevolence65]

 I don't know which one is better. It would be great if someone with experience could tell me.

[Zombievarning]

Personally, I am midway Act II with my new, shiny Rogue Archer and I have tried out both of them. If you go for an auto-crit build, I would go with Speed (that is what I am doing now), and get the Assassin tree for upgraded Pinpoint Strikes (20s, 100% critical chance) and the +1% crit damage per cunning skill.

Coupled with a support mage (read: upgraded haste), this alone outputs insane amounts of d p s.

Modifié par Zombievarning, 21 mars 2011 - 11:46 .

[Reak]

Imho SPEED is by far the better choice, my rogue is using speed and still got 107% crit chance and 2XXX Attack.
Another advantage is the cooldown reduction and the improved stamina regeneration due to
"FOLLOW-THROUGH" which regenerates 1% stamina / hit.
The high attack speed also procs the STUN which you get from MIGHT when yo skill HARMONY
So i would say SPEED > rest.

If you still need some guidance check this out:
biowarefans.com/dragon-age-2-talent-builder/#rrPfhwQitEDeCvHOK1YkoRaVQtleBFsHD
This is my maximum damage build,
i managed to throw out some insane crits.
My highest crit was ~56000 damage with that skillbuild.
Ill probably think of writing some kinda guide for that.

Modifié par Reak, 21 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[Malevolence65]

Thanks, I'll go with speed. I was actually leaning towards speed, but now I'm definitely going with it.

[Kazoot]

Use both. There's a bug that allows this.

[Joy Divison]

Precision is a lot better when you get it at level 3 and stays better for the vast majority of the game.

[ezrafetch]

I'd use Precision at lower levels when your attack may not be up to snuff, then pick up Speed when your attack is at a reasonable level; the extra speed will definitely up your DPS considerably.

[Nonoru]

Speed + Haste is sexy.

[Atmosfear3]

I'm on the fence about the cooldown reduction upgrade for speed. -10% on cooldowns isn't a very significant reduction. Even Assassinate is only brought down to 36 seconds (base 40) after the upgrade.

[Topographer]

If only Varric could pick up the Assassin tree...

[ezrafetch]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

I'm on the fence about the cooldown reduction upgrade for speed. -10% on cooldowns isn't a very significant reduction. Even Assassinate is only brought down to 36 seconds (base 40) after the upgrade.

From what I can tell, once you get past a certain point with Rogues (especially Archers since you ignore the Archery tree completely) you're swimming in some extra points, so I think you could do a lot worse than a global cooldown reduction.

[ookster8]

        Well with precision it costs less stamina, not much but it does, and the overall bonus is greater with your standard attacks. If you can hit a guy +30% of the time you'll do more dmg than hitting him 15% faster. I do not know all the mechanics at play but assuming a 100% base attack rate and 15% extra leaves you only 15% better off than u were before.
                With attack accuracy u start from let's assume 70% so that raising it 30% to 100% actually increases ur overall dmg by, google calculator time, 42%. Obviously if your attack is naturally higher/close to hundred the form falls apart. That and the added criticals makes it clearly better without other factors. At the base rate of 50% dmg increase and no chance for a crit a 10%-from the unupgraded version- increase to crit chance means ur effectively adding 5% to your overall dmg from the increase in crits alone. With the added 20% to your attack hit chance u should surpass the benefits from the 10% increase from the vanilla speed upgrade easily.
             That being said when you can get assured crit hits the bonus is null. I still don't know if you can get crits off of "glancing blows" this is just what i can interpret form the stats screen, and what i can remember from high school statistics. Late game you can probably assure near 100% attack accuracy but if its around the lower end like 50% than that 30% increase is definitely the way to go, raising dmg 60%. It's better to hit the chest once than hit air 3 times.
    On a side note it makes me made that they don't adjust dps with attack accuracy to represent the percent of the time you actually hit ur target.

Modifié par ookster8, 25 mars 2011 - 07:38 .

[Reak]

My expierence was, that i used precision until a lvl 11 or so and then i started to use Speed.

I recognized a overall DPS increase by using Speed.
In lower levels the CRIT / Attack ratio enhancement gives you by far the better DPS increase,
but later on you will experience having far more than 100% crit at a 100% hit chance.

At a certain level your crit and attack ratio will be high enough to always crit and hit at least when you got a mage with his Heroic Aura.

Buffed with Speed and Mage Aura my rogue has the following stats:


With Precision:


So as you can see: crit and hit ratio are not different since 100% is the end of the line anyways.

The advantages for speed are obvious:
Higher base DPS
More crits ( the more you roll the more you crit )
reduced style cooldowns
enhanced STAMINA regeneration if you have got the talent "Follow-Through" ( +1% Stamina per autohit which eliminates the higher Stamina cost on SPEED in comparison to Precision )

now i compare the effect wich the talent Harmony is giving to precision and speed.
1% chance to stun an enemy on every autoshot.
-> Speed users hit more often = more stuns over all

In addition, precision users get 5% Haste from Harmony,
whereas Speed users get 10% Attackratio and 5% crit.

Regarding to my argumentation you´ll see that crit and attack ratio is getting useless at a certain level ( ofc Speed-Harmony will help you to reach this hit & crit cap ).

My conclusion is: Speed is overall by far the better choice.

greetings. Reak

Modifié par Reak, 25 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[cloudblade70]

Reak wrote...

My expierence was, that i used precision until a lvl 11 or so and then i started to use Speed.

I recognized a overall DPS increase by using Speed.
In lower levels the CRIT / Attack ratio enhancement gives you by far the better DPS increase,
but later on you will experience having far more than 100% crit at a 100% hit chance.

At a certain level your crit and attack ratio will be high enough to always crit and hit at least when you got a mage with his Heroic Aura.

Buffed with Speed and Mage Aura my rogue has the following stats:


With Precision:


So as you can see: crit and hit ratio are not different since 100% is the end of the line anyways.

The advantages for speed are obvious:
Higher base DPS
More crits ( the more you roll the more you crit )
reduced style cooldowns
enhanced STAMINA regeneration if you have got the talent "Follow-Through" ( +1% Stamina per autohit which eliminates the higher Stamina cost on SPEED in comparison to Precision )

now i compare the effect wich the talent Harmony is giving to precision and speed.
1% chance to stun an enemy on every autoshot.
-> Speed users hit more often = more stuns over all

In addition, precision users get 5% Haste from Harmony,
whereas Speed users get 10% Attackratio and 5% crit.

Regarding to my argumentation you´ll see that crit and attack ratio is getting useless at a certain level ( ofc Speed-Harmony will help you to reach this hit & crit cap ).

My conclusion is: Speed is overall by far the better choice.

greetings. Reak

Your comparison is pretty faulty.

Consider this,

Speed gives 15% speed, 10% attack, and 5% crit chance (cooldown reduction is neglible to me).
Precision gives 5% speed, 30% attack, and 15% crit chance.

So really you're comparing an extra 10% speed versus 20% attack + 10% crit chance.  Thinking about all the points in dex I could save with the latter and putting them into cun, which gives +2% crit damage per point, makes me think precision is the much better choice. There are punishing diminishing returns, by the way, with the ridiculous amount of dex you have, while cun continues to give the same crit bonus.

Modifié par cloudblade70, 25 mars 2011 - 10:28 .

[Basheda]

cloudblade70 wrote...
Your comparison is pretty faulty.



Thinking about all the points in dex I could save with the latter and
putting them into cun, which gives +2% crit damage per point, makes me
think precision is the much better choice. There are punishing
diminishing returns, by the way, with the ridiculous amount of dex you
have, while cun continues to give the same crit bonus.

No. You are missing the fact that you need only around 28 dex to wear any available item and still maintain 100% hit vs. bosses and 100% crit-rate. The remaining dex comes from +dex/+all items and the +7 rune. My first archer respeced to 28dex at Lvl18 where I killed the High Dragon and got the +7 rune. I optimized her gear to reach 41dex for the best available bow (physical damage setup) and put all remaining points to cunning. I reached 85 cunning including gear at Lvl25 which was somewhere around 280% crit-damage.

The 28 dex (+items/rune) are enough at Lvl18 and are still 100% hit against bosses at Lvl25. The nessesary attack comes from Heroic Aura (Mage), Duelist Spec with Speed & Harmony. This 28 dex are also enough for 104% crit, so this is also no issue.

Speed vs. Precision turns into 15% speed vs. 5% Speed as soon as you killed the High Dragon and got your +7 rune.

[cloudblade70]

I'm planning on shadow, though, instead of duelist, for the extra 50% crit damage while obscured. Did you get both sure strikes and parry/riposte for 40% attack? I wonder if it comes out to more damage in the end than with shadow. I'll do some testing when I get the chance.

Ugh, and you get vendetta, too, now I'm rethinking my plan for my rogue. I only went with precision because I didn't have the attack boost from duelist.

Modifié par cloudblade70, 25 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[kotli]

Speed hands down late game after all attack and crit are by products of raising your dex for damage and gear reasons (only time it might not be is vs a few tough bosses) and the fact that attack and crit have a hard cap at 100% (IE going over 100% gives no benefit) where as +x% more speed still gives you more damage no matter what.

Rea\\lly what it comes down to is what your attack rating is in the 2 modes & vs non bosses it should be high enough to make the hit chance pointless.

Modifié par kotli, 25 mars 2011 - 12:23 .

[Basheda]

cloudblade70 wrote...

I'm planning on shadow, though, instead of duelist, for the extra 50% crit damage while obscured. Did you get both sure strikes and parry/riposte for 40% attack? I wonder if it comes out to more damage in the end than with shadow. I'll do some testing when I get the chance.

Ugh, and you get vendetta, too, now I'm rethinking my plan for my rogue. I only went with precision because I didn't have the attack boost from duelist.

IIRC sure strikes are taken at Lvl22+ because I don't know where I should spend my points. It wasn't nessesary at Lvl18. I don't rely on Obscured because I need all available stamina for Mark of Death + Assasinate + Vendetta and used auto attacks to fill the stamina bar if this 3 skills are on CD. Duelist Parry gives also crit-rate if you buy this upgrade, so its the best sustained for an rogue.

[Reak]

[quote]cloudblade70 wrote...

Your comparison is pretty faulty.

Consider this,

Speed gives 15% speed, 10% attack, and 5% crit chance (cooldown reduction is neglible to me).
Precision gives 5% speed, 30% attack, and 15% crit chance.

So
really you're comparing an extra 10% speed versus 20% attack + 10% crit
chance.  Thinking about all the points in dex I could save with the
latter and putting them into cun, which gives +2% crit damage per point,
makes me think precision is the much better choice. There are punishing
diminishing returns, by the way, with the ridiculous amount of dex you
have, while cun continues to give the same crit bonus.
[/quote]


[/quote]


Speed gives 20% attack speed, not 15% - only the difference between percision and speed is 15%.

ATTACK AND CRIT are useless as soon as you get beyond 100% since you just got above the CAP.
so all you got to compare is:

Speed:
20% attack speed
5% Crit
10% Attack
1% Stunchance on autohit.

Percision:
30% Attack
15% Crit
  5% attack speed
  1% chance to stun on authit.

Assuming that you are HIT AND CRIT capped you can cancel Speed and Percision down to the following stats:

Speed:
20% attack speed
1% Stunchance on autohit.

Percision:
5% attack speed
1% chance to stun on autohit.

Its pretty obvious that Speed is superior to Percision when you are HIT AND CRIT capped.
If you are not capped i think they are pretty even, but Speed is getting stronger the closer you get to HIT and CRIT cap.

Other Speed advantages are:

1%Stunchance on autohit proccs more often due to a higher auto hit ratio.
Rogues gain energy from every autohit.  more speed = more autohits =  far superior energy regeneration.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another point you mentioned was CUN vs. DEX.

My opinion is DEX > CUN

Dex increases your base dmg, critchance and hit.

CUN only icnreases your CRIT DMG by 2%.

So to gain the full 2% DPS increase per point cun you'll need to have a lot of DEX already to have HIT and CRIT at or beyond the cap ( 100%).

Assuming you got both at its cap you will have to calculate it the following.

Dex = base dmg which synergizes which is multiplied with your current enhanced CRIT multiplier.

CUN = gives you 2% crit dmg per point so its increasing the CRIT multiplier by 0,02 per point.

So DEX and CUN dmg growth is linear.

But it aint that simple.

The CRIT multiplier ( which is increased by CUN ) has to be multiplied with your current BASE dmg ( which is increased by DEX).

Back in DA:O you could simply skill lethality to cause CUN TO be your BASE DMG stat.

In DA2 that possibility is simply not given.

So the total damage increased by CUN is depending on your BASE dmg.

Means: your DPS grwoth with DEX is stronger until you reach a base damage level where +2% crit dmg gives you a higher increase of total damage than 1 point in dex multiplied with your old CRIT dmg multiplier. 

hope you got what i mean.

greetings. Reak

Modifié par Reak, 25 mars 2011 - 01:43 .

[SlamminHams]

Speed is superior to Precision for DW Rogues. At the end of the game, I had 85% Hit against bosses with a fully upgraded Speed activated and Heroic Aura, on top of 80% Crit (which was higher b/c of Unforgiving Chain). Cunning was much more effective in increasing my damage than extra Dexterity. I specialized in Assassination and Shadow.

I personally think Precision > Speed for the first half of the game or so. Past that, Speed > Precision.

[Reak]

yeh well i think CUN gets stronger at a certain amount of base dmg.

[Amioran]

Malevolence65 wrote...

 I don't know which one is better. It would be great if someone with experience could tell me.

You should take both. Speed is for normal mobs, Precision for Elites/Bosses.

Precision does a lot of difference against elites/bosses, however speed is very useful when paired with increase crit chance/dmg against normal/trash enemies to bring them down faster. Another reason while you should get both is that in this way you can take the upgrade on Precision (that gives +crit chance). However, if you really HAVE to choose, then Precision is better. Speed without upgrade on a bow is a really marginal increase in attack speed, and against bosses/elites (the primary enemies worth of attention for a rogue) the +hit is to be much preferred to a +attack speed.

You can disable/enable them on the run without wasting anything in the process, so the best way to use them is to use them depending on the situation.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[Basheda]

Reak wrote...
Speed gives 20% attack speed, not 15% - only the difference between percision and speed is 15%.

Speed gives 15% attack speed. Its 10% non upgraded and +5% for the upgrade. The tooltip changes from 10% to 15% after you buy the upgrade but this 15% is now with upgrade. You don't get another 5% ontop of this 15%.

Reak wrote...
So to gain the full 2% DPS increase per point cun you'll need to have a
lot of DEX already to have HIT and CRIT at or beyond the cap ( 100%).

Also not true. You need 28 dex to wear the best available bow and this 28 dex are enough to reach the 100% hit/crit caps if you go duelist. All remaining points can go to cunning. 1 cunning is more damage than 1 dex at this point. I testet this and the difference was obvious.

Modifié par Basheda, 25 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[cloudblade70]

"Its pretty obvious that Speed is superior to Percision when you are HIT AND CRIT capped.
If you are not capped i think they are pretty even, but Speed is getting stronger the closer you get to HIT and CRIT cap."

In response to this, my point is that with precision, you hit the cap with fewer points in dex, thus more points can go into cun.

However, for my archer, the question is not between speed and precision but between (speed + duelist) and (precision + shadow).

Speed + Duelist
- 15% speed
- 50% attack (40 + 10)
- 20% crit chance (5 + 5 + 10)
- 40% defense
- vendetta

Precision + Shadow
- 30% attack
- 15% crit chance
- 5% speed
- 50% crit damage
- disorienting ccc setup

I may have to do some testing/number crunching but I think the first setup will have overall higher damage. Any input?

[Reak]

Basheda, when you look at precision, the tooltip does actually not change.

Im using Shadow for 2 reasons:
For +25% crit dmg bonus and

"Disorienting Criticals
Disorienting Criticals     Passive
Requires: Level 9
Requires: Pinpoint Precision     While obscured, the shadow gains a considerable bonus to critical damage. In addition, any critical hits the shadow lands while obscured automatically DISORIENT enemies, leaving them vulnerable to further harm from a warrior or mage.

+25% Critical damage when obscured

100% Disorient chance for critical hits when obscured."

That talent combined with Chameleons Breath makes up a very significant dmg icnrease.

Besides, if you payed any attention to what i wrote:
in general Dex > CUN but i also mentioned that you will get more damage increase by CUN at a certain point of base damage.


Besides, what "best available bow" you are talking of? mine needs 41

Modifié par Reak, 25 mars 2011 - 03:55 .