28 réponses à ce sujet

[jussyr]

Remember how in Baldur's Gate II, the Cowled Wizards would show up and attack you if you cast any spells inside the city (without a license)?  Let's have that sort of thing back, with progressively harder groups of Templars showing up in, say, the first two acts if anyone in your party starts tossing spells around in the daytime in Kirkwall.  Maybe with the exception of Darktown/underground passages/anywhere else Templars wouldn't tend to be.

[Cambios]

Sounds great.

[darkrose]

This would be awesome. One of my biggest issues in the game has been that no one seems to notice I'm a mage, even when I'm casting in broad daylight. They did it reasonably well in BG2, but in Kirkwall, all of the templars are apparently blind.

[Rhys1984]

well in some respects your wealth and power buy you some protection, but yeah running around spamming cone of cold in a heavily crowded market place at daytime will get you a bit of attention. so this is a great idea.

i do recall pissing off so many wizards in bg2 you get those super nasty ones coming in with massive amounts of protective spells and they just messed you up.

[Raiithe]

I've been impressed with the sheer number of mages, blood mages, apostates and demons that can live in safety inside a city infested with templar..... yet can be found just by walking down a street at night.

It would be great if there was some kind of reaction from templar, hell maybe a mention or two in conversation that says they might be suspicious.

[Sunnie]

Keep in mind that Merrideth knows you are an Apostate, and alows you to go about your business because you are doing the city good, though warns that she would not hesitate to kill you if she has cause to think otherwise. Making templars attack Hawke would be OOC for the story.

[Vukodlak]

How often are there daytime battles on the streets of Kirkwall? Its not to common and there's never a Templar around. Have you noticed the areas where the Templars are during the day are oddly devoid of combat situations? Just how are the Templars supposed to know an apposite was there? And how would they get there before your gone they can't teleport.

Kirkwall is a big city, if you say had a battle in lowtown it probably take someone awhile to make there way to the Gallows, twenty minutes. Then of course he has to get a Templar to listen, assuming the Templar believes him, the warrior would have to gather up some allies (as hunting a mage alone isn't very bright). Then get to lowtown before your gone. Now given the plausible response time, its possible the Templar won't do much of anything, as he knows the mage in question will be gone long before he gets there.

Then of course there is the possibility there was no magic it was simply a grenade or the mage in question was part of the circle but was given permission to attended to business outside of the tower. The Templars aren't going to chase after every rumor a peasent brings to them about magic. Templars may have experience with mages but the common folk don't.

The only real issue is when you first meet Cullen casting perhaps should be disabled in that battle simply because he's story essential and its way out of character for him to ignore the fact your a mage.

Otherwise its perfectly reasonable you don't get discovered as there is never a Templar around in Kirkwall when your casting a spell, save for the times there already hostile or after ACII when as Champion your untouchable.

Sunnie22 wrote...

Keep in mind that Merrideth knows you
are an Apostate, and alows you to go about your business because you are
doing the city good, though warns that she would not hesitate to kill
you if she has cause to think otherwise. Making templars attack Hawke
would be OOC for the story.

But that doesn't happen until ACIII[technically the climax of Act II] Having saved the city, Merrideth and the Templars can't touch you as the political ramifcations would be disasterous. A mob of angry peasents rioting in the gallows demanding she free the champion would not be helpful to her. Orsano would then capitalize on it to insite the citizens to revolt against the Templars.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 22 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Raiithe]

True, meredith may turn a blind eye to the characters actions and that of the apostates he/she kills, possibly in the hope of getting rid of two birds with one stone.

And its also true that response times for the templars to get to a skirmish would be at the point where they may as well not bother.

What i meant was that Meredith knows about the character being a mage, its unlikely that she's going to expose her neck by telling her subordinates to ignore his actions, or for that matter covering for him.

However my main point is that Templars are supposed to hunt down and capture or eliminate mages that operate outside of the Circle/Templars control. The fact that so many mages can be found in the city and its surrounds implies that they are doing little to no searching for any with magic. Either that or they are inept.

As far as having skirmishes on the streets of kirkwall, and the lack of a templar presence, i think that might be more as a supericial means of avoiding certain Q's eg. 'I just had a battle against a blood mage and the Templar just stood there, WTH?'. Its likely just the way the level was designed. I find it unlikely that a military organisation would fail to patrol or search the city that they are garrisoned in just because the suns gone down.

[jussyr]

Well, my thought about it being a daytime only thing was more due to the difficulty of dealing with some of the fights you get into at night without being able to cast/with Templars added in, rather than for a story reason. If someone does want to make this mod, maybe two versions, daytime only or anytime?

Thinking back, story-wise they probably should be there all the time, given what Anders has to say about midnight raids on people's homes by the Templars. Sounds like they're reasonably active in the streets to me, even if the city does have to look underpopulated for game speed.

[Raiithe]

I like the idea of it and i think there should be a random chance upon entering the city street levels that templar might appear as a patrol and therefore lend aid in some of those battles.

As Vukodlak said, the templar can't be expected to travel such distances quickly. However if they could be implemented as a patrol then they not only have a reason for getting to that part of the city quickly but would add credence to some of the lore behind the game.

Modifié par Raiithe, 22 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[Vukodlak]

What i meant was that Meredith knows about the character being a mage, its unlikely that she's going to expose her neck by telling her subordinates to ignore his actions, or for that matter covering for him.

She doesn't know your a mage until the end of ACII, at which point dealing with an apostate mage is secondary concern to saving the city. After you save Kirkwall your the champion and she can't touch you without risking a mob of angry peasents rioting in the gallows demanding your release.

However my main point is that Templars are supposed to hunt down and capture or eliminate mages that operate outside of the Circle/Templars control. The fact that so many mages can be found in the city and its surrounds implies that they are doing little to no searching for any with magic. Either that or they are inept.

As far as having skirmishes on the streets of kirkwall, and the lack of a templar presence, i think that might be more as a supericial means of avoiding certain Q's eg. 'I just had a battle against a blood mage and the Templar just stood there, WTH?'. Its likely just the way the level was designed. I find it unlikely that a military organisation would fail to patrol or search the city that they are garrisoned in just because the suns gone down.

The Templar are not the city guard, Walking through the streets hoping to stumble across a mage isn't very effective, first the Templars would be a target by the cutthroats of Kirkwall who don't like them anymore the the mages. As Aveline complains in ACTII she can't get the Templar to help the guard out at all. So patrolling the street looking for trouble doesn't sound like them.   And how would it even work, assuming the patrol runs into a mage, the only way they'd know the target is a mage is if someone saw him cast a spell. So your logic is really based on the idea the Templars will stumble upon a mage defending himself from a bunch of cutthroats.

And the Templar likely have there hands full as sometime between the Prologue and ACT I the circle in Starkhaven burned down scattering a couple hundred mages to the winds. I think the Templars have there hands full.

Really patroling the streets looking for people you presume to be hiding isn't effective, interrogating and bribing people for information as to where a apostate mage may be sleeping is much more effective.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 22 mars 2011 - 03:07 .

[Sunnie]

She knows you are an apostate for 100% sure by the end of Act 2. There are other Templars who are mage sympathizers that have known you are an apostate since act1, don;t you think that Merrideth would have gotten wind back then?

[Vukodlak]

Sunnie22 wrote...

She knows you are an apostate for 100% sure by the end of Act 2. There are other Templars who are mage sympathizers that have known you are an apostate since act1, don;t you think that Merrideth would have gotten wind back then?

The mage sympathizers won't give you away. They are as you said sympathatic.

[Cambios]

Sunnie22 wrote...



She knows you are an apostate for 100%
sure by the end of Act 2. There are other Templars who are mage
sympathizers that have known you are an apostate since act1, don;t you
think that Merrideth would have gotten wind back then?

Exactly.

Vukodlak wrote...

The mage sympathizers won't give you away. They are as you said sympathatic.

I've cast spells right in front of templars. I've run right up to Cullen and
cast blood magic right in his face. So not just magic, but BLOOD MAGIC. I spewed blood all over him in all its gory, apostate goodness.

Meredith's acknowledgement of the Champion's magic that she lets slide at the end of Act II makes sense for a while, but for 3 years? Champion or not, the fact that they are blatantly not bringing in a super famous apostate mage would utterly destroy their credibility.

Vukodlak, your suspension of disbelief is admirable, but unfortunately
this is a huge plot hole Bioware really should have addressed.

Modifié par Cambios, 22 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[Raiithe]

'Really patroling the streets looking for people you presume to be hiding isn't effective, interrogating and bribing people for information as to where a apostate mage may be sleeping is much more effective.'

How are they doing this if they are not on the streets looking for informants? And when they do how can the Templar get to the apostates sleeping place without using the streets.

Next just because its unlikely that a mage is going to just up and appear and start blasting, doesn't mean that they should just wait in a large building away from everyone isolating themselves from the populace. In the real world do the forces in iraq, afghanistan or any other country controlled by the military just wait in the barracks until the enemy makes a move? No, while the vast majority will stay in the base, there will still be some patrolling, to show presence, to not isolate themselves from the populace and also to intimidate.

Starkhaven had a circle but it also had its own templar, while the templar may have been busy they would not just assume that kirkwall will be fine.

Aveline was complaining about the templar assisting in general law and order issues within the city, but also that certain templar were trying to remove the guard and replace them with templar.

As far as cutthroats attacking templar patrols, while it may on occasion occur, it wouldn't be common its as stupid as gangs attacking a group of well equipped and highly experienced soldiers. Yes they may attack a Sole templar eg. Emeric here and there but he was old, alone and unprepared to face a group of thugs.

As to Meredith, right at the beginning there is rumors of her paranoia and madness, this is slowly confirmed as one continues. So believing that she would act in a rational manner out of fear of inciting a rebellion from the peasants.... truthfully no-one can know what she would think.
When it comes down to it she doesn't have much need to fear the populace unless the mages and the guard joined with them against the templar. After all the Gallows is a Fortress and she has an army under her control. She could likely hold out there until reinforcements arrived (which they did in the end).

[Sunnie]

The bottom line is, not being attacked is a GAME MECHANIC. Quite frankly, if I was getting attacked every time I cast a spell in Kirkwall, the first mod out the door would be turning that crap off. You don't get attacked because it would hamper playing through the main story line, bringing it to an incredulous crawl. While it sounds cool, getting attacked like that would get old really fast.

[Well]

Cambios wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...



She knows you are an apostate for 100%
sure by the end of Act 2. There are other Templars who are mage
sympathizers that have known you are an apostate since act1, don;t you
think that Merrideth would have gotten wind back then?

Exactly.

Vukodlak wrote...

The mage sympathizers won't give you away. They are as you said sympathatic.

I've cast spells right in front of templars. I've run right up to Cullen and
cast blood magic right in his face. So not just magic, but BLOOD MAGIC. I spewed blood all over him in all its gory, apostate goodness.

Meredith's acknowledgement of the Champion's magic that she lets slide at the end of Act II makes sense for a while, but for 3 years? Champion or not, the fact that they are blatantly not bringing in a super famous apostate mage would utterly destroy their credibility.

Vukodlak, your suspension of disbelief is admirable, but unfortunately
this is a huge plot hole Bioware really should have addressed.

There are a lot of holes in the story.I just shake my head and go on....om om :o

[Raiithe]

my hopes were not so much them turning up all the time but for a random chance of the turning up, whether it be to aid warrior hawk against apostates or an old fashioned free for all. Either way as long as such occurences weren't to common or overpowering i would install such.

[Cambios]

Sunnie22 wrote...

The bottom line is, not being attacked is a GAME MECHANIC. Quite frankly, if I was getting attacked every time I cast a spell in Kirkwall, the first mod out the door would be turning that crap off. You don't get attacked because it would hamper playing through the main story line, bringing it to an incredulous crawl. While it sounds cool, getting attacked like that would get old really fast.

But that's not what people are asking. They aren't asking that Bioware patch it in and make it standard behavior. They are asking for a mod where casting spells in the city can have a random chance to trigger a templar patrol/attack. If you think that's annoying, then you don't have to use it of course.

As for the story: I think with a little more work they could have covered this plot hole. When you talk to Meredith at the beginning of Act III, if take the red options and refuse to help her, she talks about how she knows you are an Apostate but it is tolerated because you are the Champion of Kirkwall and are important for its protection. If they had fleshed that out a lot more, it might have helped. As it stands, you kinda have to dig through dialogue options and hope you trigger the right one to even get a hint as to why you can go around fireballing Kirkwall without getting in trouble.

Modifié par Cambios, 22 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[Vukodlak]

Cambios wrote...
I've cast spells right in front of templars. I've run right up to Cullen and

cast blood magic right in his face. So not just magic, but BLOOD MAGIC.
I spewed blood all over him in all its gory, apostate goodness.

I've already stated casting spells infront of Cullen when you first meet him outside Kirkwall is a problem and they should probably be disabled for that battle .[to prevent any casters from giving themselves away].

Cambios wrote...
Meredith's
acknowledgement of the Champion's magic that she lets slide at the end
of Act II makes sense for a while, but for 3 years? Champion or not, the
fact that they are blatantly not bringing in a super famous apostate
mage would utterly destroy their credibility.

Vukodlak, your suspension of disbelief is admirable, but unfortunately
this is a huge plot hole Bioware really should have addressed.

Its only a plot hole if you ignore the rising tension between mages and templars. Orsano and Meredith both try and court you to there side because your the Champion and you have sway. If Meredith was to arrest you, first it ruin any chance she has of making you an ally, secondly a dozen or so templars would probably die trying to bring you in. But lastly arresting the hero of the city and locking him away in the Gallows or worse executing him won't sell over very well with the people. Why is it suspending my disbelief to think that the people of Kirkwall might riot or revolt over the unjustice arrest of its Champion?

Modifié par Vukodlak, 22 mars 2011 - 10:00 .

[Cambios]

Vukodlak wrote...

Its only a plot hole if you ignore the rising tension between mages and templars. Orsano and Meredith both try and court you to there side because your the Champion and you have sway. If Meredith was to arrest you, first it ruin any chance she has of making you an ally, secondly a dozen or so templars would probably die trying to bring you in. But lastly arresting the hero of the city and locking him away in the Gallows or worse executing him won't sell over very well with the people. Why is it suspending my disbelief to think that the people of Kirkwall might riot or revolt over the unjustice arrest of its Champion.

But that's the point: it wouldn't be an unjust arrest. The law of the DA world is clear: if you are a mage, you either join the circle or you are hunted. Apostate mages simply aren't allowed - at all.

Once Meredith and everyone knows Hawke is a mage, that presents a serious problem. If she doesn't bring him in, then their entire system of laws is basically bogus. How can they bring in other apostate mages if the biggest, most obvious, most seriously "dangerous" and powerful apostate mage runs free? It puts every flaw, hypocrisy, and abuse front and center right before the public eye. The fact that she just kinda blows it off is a serious plot hole. Even worse, if you don't pursue just the right dialogue options with Meredith you don't even get that one tiny, weak attempt at explaining it away.

There are ways they could have resolved the problem I imagine. The Grand Cleric could have made some sermon where in a vision the Maker told her that the Champion of Kirkwall was "chosen" or special in some way such that he could be trusted to wield magic as he saw fit. That's just one example. I'm sure given enough discussion we could come up with tons of interesting story line work arounds. Its a shame they didn't do any of these, because they would have been really interesting in their own right, and would have added another wrinkle to the story.

But Meredith simply not arresting him because it suited her political ends just isn't good enough. Its too hypocritical even for an oppressive medieval regime. Its not behind the scenes at that point, and it can't be hidden. If Hawke is an apostate mage, he MUST join the circle or he must die. There are no other options according to the DA world's law.

Modifié par Cambios, 22 mars 2011 - 09:55 .

[Vukodlak]

Cambios wrote...
But that's the point: it wouldn't be an unjust arrest. The law of the DA world is clear: if you are a mage, you either join the circle or you are hunted. Apostate mages simply aren't allowed - at all.

Saying its legal doesn't make it just, ever hear the phrase "An unjust law is no law at all" People tend ot use the words "unjust" when something wrong is done legally.

From the common folks perspective they won't hear its Chantry law. They'll just hear that the Champion the one who saved them from the Qunari was arrested and locked away in a prison for the crime of existing.

Meredith would justify everything her critics are saying, about the mages unfair treatment letting Hawke go as an execption "that proves the rule" is far less damaging then trying to bring him/her in.

And execptions are allowed, mages can be given permission to leave the circle tower for extened periods of time[whose say that it can't be years] and most obviously Wardens are supposed to be free of the Circle completely as longs they stay with the Wardens.[that doesn't stop a certain zealot from ignoring that in awakening].

In any event you have no basis to claim there are no execptions.

Cambios wrote...
Once Meredith and everyone knows Hawke is a mage, that presents a serious problem. If she doesn't bring him in, then their entire system of laws is basically bogus. How can they bring in other apostate mages if the biggest, most obvious, most seriously "dangerous" and powerful apostate mage runs free? It puts every flaw, hypocrisy, and abuse front and center right before the public eye. The fact that she just kinda blows it off is a serious plot hole. Even worse, if you don't pursue just the right dialogue options with Meredith you don't even get that one tiny, weak attempt at explaining it away.

It comes up in conversation with Anders in Act III without any real digging and I imagine others may comment on it to.
I can recall a line from Hawke "She's just looking for any excuse to drag me off to the circle" They can bring in other Apostates because there "dangerous" or they ran away. The nobodies are easily arrested and brought in in because there isn't anyone to speak in there defense. But she can't claim Hawke is a threat to the people, he saved the people.
As I said the damage of arresting Hawke without evidence that he's a danger to the people, is more damaging to the Templars then letting him go free. Hyporacy is a part of politics especially in a medieval regime. Saying Hawke is the one of the few execptions sells over much better then treating a hero like a criminal.

You have a mansion in Hightown your obviously not going anywhere. If she wants to monitor you she can still do so.
But arresting you carries the risk of Orisno or one of the nobles capitalizing on that event to incite the people against her. Why do you want her played as an idiot?

Modifié par Vukodlak, 22 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Pinely]

Cambios wrote...
Once Meredith and everyone knows Hawke is a mage, that presents a serious problem. If she doesn't bring him in, then their entire system of laws is basically bogus. How can they bring in other apostate mages if the biggest, most obvious, most seriously "dangerous" and powerful apostate mage runs free? It puts every flaw, hypocrisy, and abuse front and center right before the public eye. The fact that she just kinda blows it off is a serious plot hole. Even worse, if you don't pursue just the right dialogue options with Meredith you don't even get that one tiny, weak attempt at explaining it away.

Somehow you've confused hypocrisy with plot hole.

Meredith is walking a fine line.  She's de facto ruler of Kirkwall, an arrangement that a lot of people are unhappy with.  She also ruthlessly cracks down on apostates and circle mages.  What would be the reaction of the people of Kirkwall when she arrests the beloved Champion that defeated the Qunari?  It's hypocritical, but it's probably the only reason she didn't have a riot on her hands prior to Act III.

In fact, I though Bioware did a good job of showing that the Champion (Mage, Rogue, or Warrior) was outside of Meredith's control. 

[XJ347]

I agree, Meredith can't touch the champion because of popular demand. Their would be a riot, not only from the the ignorant masses but more importantly the nobles and or the grand cleric.

Look at it this way, who pays for the wages of the templars? The government is my guess, and I also assume that the nobles control the government. Even if Meredith is running the executive aspect, others (the nobles) have to be running the logistical side.  If they ****** off the nobles then Meredith could see her funding cut. The chantry tells them how to do their job but that doesn't mean that the nobles can't use funding as a way to control the templars. Think of it like this, congress can't tell the presidents staff how to do their job, but they can choose to not fund the presidents staffs programs. Can't fight a war if theirs no funds to pay the troops.
President = grand cleric
President staff = Meredith
Congress = Nobles

What is lame is that they don't explain this. This really should have been a big point when you are a mage. Was it your connections with the grand cleric that make you untouchable or is it the fact that you saved the nobles who control funding?

Felt like they missed an opportunity, Meredith hates the mage champion and is open about it but she just doesn't have the political capital to do anything about it. Would have been nice to have quests where Meredith tries to frame you for some crimes so she can hual you away and you stop her plans...

I do agree the fact that we have to figure out why we aren't arrested is a plot hole.  I also think they made the templar side way to evil, I dont want to feel guilty siding with them, when they aren't totally wrong but when it's kill them all for one mans action who isn't even part of the order, well that really isnt an option if you want to be moral. You may hate mages and think they need to all be imprissoned but that doesn't mean they deserve to die. I kept looking for that option to choose. =/  That is slightly Off topic oops.

As for the mod idea, I think the idea works until you become the champion, but  when you are a no-body and cast a spell infront of a templar than, yes, you should be attacked. Once you become the champion that should change. At that point everyone knows you are a mage but the templars dont have permissions to arrest you, be it from the grand cleric or the nobles usage of financial pressure on Meredith. You would have to tone down the number of templars outside the gallows so playing a caster is feasible though.

[Cambios]

Pinely wrote...

Somehow you've confused hypocrisy with plot hole.

Its way too massive of a hypocrisy, and way too absurd, to be blown off as just hypocrisy.

You have an apostate mage roaming the streets, blowing people to shreds, potentially casting blood magic all the time, and the Chantry/Templars just ignore it? And oh, its the most famous person in the city, so everyone knows about it.

That's not going to cause a rebellion right there against the Templars? Hell, that's not going to cause a total schism within the Templars itself?

They didn't make exceptions for any other super powerful mages in history, so the whole "well, they made an exception" doesn't hold water. The Chantry scriptures don't have a Champion of Kirkwall exception.

They really needed to shore this hole up with some significant story attention. I realize it only really mattered for 1 of the 3 classes you can play, but it is serious enough that they really should have given it more attention. They really needed a major story device to explain this rather than just leaving it out there gaping.