367 replies to this topic

[Graunt]

So at level 16 - 20 I'm supposed to be wearing some level 10 plate that not only has less armor than the cloth I can get during ACT 3, it also doesn't have any beneficial elemental bonuses (you realize no enemy takes double damage from physical and that most enemies mitigate much of your physical spell damage right?)? Is there a single piece of plate that gives Mana for Health?

So what does that leave?  Oh, I guess I can eat up a ring slot and a neck that I could have gained 70 health from. Sounds like a bargain to me just to get 40 health, less armor than what I would have had as well as abssymal magic resists!  Not having any rune slots is just a bonus too.  I can't wait until people finally wake up and realize just how truly awful plate is for a Mage, despite the pretty graphics.

Here's just an example:

@lvl 11
Enchanted Helm -Non,rare-2.93g
42 Armor
+23 Attack
+10 Health
Requirements: 18 str/con

vs

The Resolutionist's Cap (Cloth)
123 Armor
2 Rune Slots
+1 Magic
+4 Mana/Stamina regen
Requirements: 32 Magic, 32 Wilpower.

There comes a point where sacrificing everything else just to gain a few more health from a lesser item is a major waste. The health you gained is much less than the damage mitigation both physical and magical that you lose.  You also can't miss with spells, and I've never once seen a "miss" with the ranged staff attack, and it seems like the attack rating is only for the melee sequences.  Giving the finger to "the man" does not matter if the end result is pointless.  

I'm not just "theorycrafting" either.  I have not worn plate on either of my playthroughs and by the time I hit ACT 3, I have more health than Aveline and much higher armor rating.  The only thing she has over me is stun, knockdown and critical immunity.  For a ranged character, I have the highest survivability out of anyone in the group and I never run out of health or mana.

Edited by Graunt, 23 March 2011 - 04:51 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Youre right my opinion does not belong here.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 23 March 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[Graunt]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

You use mage adept in combination. Magisters Scythe ignores physical damage resistance for all attacks. No elemental spell does 900%. Spirit is your alternate damage source. Robe armor never saved a mage from dying.

Oh please.  Stop pretending that the material matters when it doesn't one bit.  All that matters is your physical damage reduction rating.  Do you also not understand what 600% x 2 is?  I'm fairly certain that's much higher than a 900% modifier.  And a 23 damage staff is garbage once you hit ACT 2.  The only reason that staff is even talked about is because of the random proc, otherwise it's essentially garbage compared to any other staff that's used against a non immune.  You were also talking about spells, not weapons -- try to be more consistent with your argument.

Blood Mage/Force Mage is the top spec. Correct?
Hemmorage, Blood
Slave, Crushing Prison, Stonefist, Fist of the Maker; all physical
damage. With the right gear, you can see a +25-30% damage increase from
armor & trinkets alone.

Blood Slave isn't physical, Blood Spatter (you know, the ability that has never worked once on Nightmare?) is, Paralyzing Prison is terrible on a Hawke Mage, Fist of the Maker only ever hits around 1200 damage on average, and Hemorrhage hits around 3600 on a non crit.  My Chain Lightnings hit for 3200 on a non crit, but on top of that my Tempest ticks hit for 102 and my Electric based staff hits harder than any physical staff.  And that's just against enemies that are not weak against electricity.  You can't raise what Hemorrhage and Fist does, and Fist is primarily used for an interrupt since it's too hard to consistently hit more than one staggered enemy without hitting your tank.

Edited by Graunt, 23 March 2011 - 05:02 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

This is not a finished product or even being presented as such. It will include all schools of thought.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 23 March 2011 - 10:44 PM.

[Graunt]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

dude, lower your aggro right now

You mean lower the fact checking?  I don't recall you taking it easy on someone you thought was spouting misinformation on a continual basis in other threads.  It's nice that you started a Blood Mage thread, yet it quickly turned into yet another "lol guyz wear plate cuz it's da best!" soap box.

[SuicidalBaby]

I am building this from the ground up direction, which means I include all options.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 23 March 2011 - 10:33 PM.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Do not go Blood Mage till you receive your second specialisation point.

I've played BM from the level I got it on Nightmare and additional mana pool was really helpful. Basically me and Merrill with her BM controlled most of the battlefield with Petrify/Horror/Stonefist/Crushing Prison, and when ran out of mana for that another wave of tanking rogues, I switched to BM. After I got Spirit Healer, usually twas like this: throw all the control spells -> throw all damage spells -> BM, Hemmorhage -> Spirit Healer until control/damage spells avaible again -> turn off SH and maybe BM if mana is ok -> throw all crowd control spells -> repeat.
Second mana pool worked well for me from the start of the game (I upgraded my CON every level starting prologue).

Edited by DamnThoseDisplayNames, 23 March 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Do not go Blood Mage till you receive your second specialisation point.

I've played BM from the level I got it on Nightmare and additional mana pool was really helpful. Basically me and Merrill with her BM controlled most of the battlefield with Petrify/Horror/Stonefist/Crushing Prison, and when ran out of mana for that another wave of tanking rogues, I switched to BM. After I got Spirit Healer, usually twas like this: throw all the control spells -> throw all damage spells -> BM, Hemmorhage -> Spirit Healer until control/damage spells avaible again -> turn off SH and maybe BM if mana is ok -> throw all crowd control spells -> repeat.
Second mana pool worked well for me from the start of the game (I upgraded my CON every level starting prologue).

with the suggested build above rogues are singled out and killed in less than 30 seconds.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

with the suggested build above rogues are singled out and killed in less than 30 seconds.

As far the game went I did the same or better and faster, or are you suggesting your mage can do it without any of companions help?
Anyway, can't say I'm not hooked, will be waiting for updates and maybe some screenshots of your build.

[BloodyRaw]

Suicidial Good Work on this, I appreciate what you are doing. Looking forward to v 5

[SuicidalBaby]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

with the suggested build above rogues are singled out and killed in less than 30 seconds.

As far the game went I did the same or better and faster, or are you suggesting your mage can do it without any of companions help?
Anyway, can't say I'm not hooked, will be waiting for updates and maybe some screenshots of your build.

I consider 30 seconds to be a fair benchmark. If youre willling to write up a guide for levels 7 - 14 as a BM you are more than welcome to have it included in the advanced section. Personnally, I think of going BM 2nd spec as something of a cop-out. But if people are coming for basic advice, hence the "basics" heading, its wise to have them wait till 14.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 23 March 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

reserved

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 05 April 2011 - 05:50 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

reserved

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 02 April 2011 - 08:30 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Drunken Blood
submitted by - DamnThoseDisplayNames

Spirit Healer + Blood Mage:
 It's nothing about being a specialist, but pretty much a headquarters of party, where I control all the course of battle without constantly clicking on people to do my orders. And if someone (or everyone) dies cause I was busy opening another can of beer, my guy just shouts "Back to yer feet, lazy arses!", and everyone continues fighting.
Also, there is +10 constitution bonus and 100 health regeneration so I only ended up with about +2 blood magic items (a ring and gloves) without any harm. I also yawned at 3-4 enemies attacking me and Meredith's sword to my stomach.  Merrill was a hexer/arcane mage. Fenris/Carver gave me STAGGER. Varric was just about damage.

I have my spells in three categories.
Damage: Frost Spells, Stonefist, Chain Lightning, Paralyzing Hemorrhage.
Control: Horror as a point-wonder spell, Glyph of Paralysis (Upgraded, I actually start every combat by placing green marker in front of my party), Petrify
Support: Heal (not upgraded, I think Horror+Heal should be starting spells for any Nightmare build, actually), Aura of Courage, Haste (the awesome spell. with Sandal's rune can hit them with staff to the face, repeat), Mass Heal + "Raise Dead" - spells for lazy guys like me who prefer to continue battle instead F9'ing it. I think Mass Heal is upgraded cause upgrading revive is stupid. The goal was to grab Spirit Healer 6 points bonus.

How to play: Glyph of Paralysis -> Party buffs up -> Haste -> Stagger them -> Hemorrhage -> Double Chain Lightnings. If baddie rogues -> Control spells -> double fisting (sounds scary, huh?)/freezing. If everything is bad -> Revive, Heal -> Start again.

I always played with Blood Magic on from about second part of the game.
When all the spells are on cooldown, I switch to spirit healer's aura.
If somehow (I don't know how, you should be the one strange chum to actually do this) you end up without health to cast, it's easy for me and Merrill both shut off blood magic -> group heal -> and show goes on..

Stats: 1/1/1 Magic Willpower Constitution till Willpower hits 27-31 for items, bonus stats from books went to Magic. I made some respecs later to tweak with my HP. I ended up with about 27 basic Willpower. With items, my magic is 67, while constitution is 53. With items, it's 400+ hp. My Fenris had 250 hp. Gee, I can *tank*.

Items: Health regenerates pretty fast, and with large health pool, I only used Mark of the Fallen and Hands of Fate gloves.

That's it. Nothing fancy, but it got the job done, and pretty easy, without mashing buttons or fear for breaking the "character chain" (warrior falls -> rogue falls -> all support falls). I only had problems with Hybris, but twas cause I never fought him on my first playthrough.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 01 April 2011 - 09:01 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Merrill Builds Section

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 26 March 2011 - 05:05 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Advanced Builds Section: Blood Mage from level 7  (difficult)

(Expereinced write-ups welcome)

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 26 March 2011 - 05:20 AM.

[Graunt]

SuicidialBaby wrote...
Personnally, I think of going BM 2nd spec as something of a cop-out. But if people are coming for basic advice, hence the "basics" heading, its wise to have them wait till 14.

I'm confused.  You're writing a help guide for Blood Mages, and say not to get Blood Magic until your second specialization, yet don't actually feel that's justified?  Can you list any valid reasons to pick it up at level 7 other than for 25 health?  None of your good abilities open up until much later on anyway, while you can get Unshakable at 8, Gravitic at 10.

Jaedo wrote...
It wasn't an insult, more of a metaphorical way of saying that he is getting upset over nothing, especially since the compendium isn't complete.

I'm missing half of the conversation, or things were edited out, so I don't know if you were talking about my responses or not.  It's not about "getting upset over nothing" and it doesn't matter if the guide is finished or not.  Plate is simply not a superior choice after ACT 1 (Blood Dragon chest), and it's an even worse option in ACT 3.  This isn't just a guess, it's a fact.  If it seems like I'm being too hardcore with what you might think is just an opinion, it's because it seems like there is this oddball "plate revolution" going on around the forums where people keep suggesting it again and again.  Most of the time it's suggested to wear it as early as possible, and that ends up making it much harder to actually DO anything early - mid game, and by the end game you already reach the 80% armor cap with just Rock Armor and cloth.  You'll also be sitting at close to 50% Magic Resist, which you can't get by not spending points into WIL and just wearing Plate.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

For me, the whole idea of Force Mage is aesthetically unacceptable. I don't want my game to turn in Mass Effect or KoTOR. And even taking Nightmare difficulty into considiration, I did't feel the need of a spirit healer in my group (Aveline, Varric, Merrill) before maybe Act 3. So a second mana pool came to me as a natural choice.

[Att3r0]

good work suicidial im looking forward to see results (maybe some numbers from bossfights) using warrior armor on mage sure is interesting

With focus on str and con the question is whatever to use str or will for gear requirement.
Str is totaly useless whent it comes for mage, but willpower can be used for initial cast before switching to blood magic.

Now what suicidial is suggesting is using low req warrior gear rather then mage one.
with that you get
15-20 more constitution
+physical damage
+attack /HP ? (Well mage armor can have it too)

However the cost is huge : in DA2 mage armor dont fall behind in damage reduction when compared to warrior one (on my hawke warrior champions armor is 331 armor while some mage armor sold in emporium got 307 armor) and act 1 armor got got much lower defense.
The other thing are missing rune sockets - probably best used for elemental resistances.

Conlusion is: Bioware did a bizzare thing making cloth almost in part with plate in damage reduction to discourage blood mages from running in plate. Suicidial decided to go with plate as the stats there are all beneficial while on mage armor you often find +mana/mana regen that is not so good for blood magee, but i belive its possible to find cloth with no +mana too. So the question would be whatever its better to stick to low level armor and have the spare points in constitution or not.
I belive its not. But i still look forward to results Plz posts your stats at 20-22 lv with some damage numbers (lets say against the High dragon ?) oh ofc name the difficulty

@Graunt how is WILL connected to magic resist? any particular item for mage that would rise it greatly ?

[Tomark]

yes, there are quite a few robes (in apparel mostly) that are specially designed for blood mages.

there is absolutely no reason to take str.

[Sriep]

 
Here is my attempt at TACTICS for a level 16 blood mage / primal build. I am a little worried about Cone of cold due to friendly fire, but it can be so useful if mobbed. Any suggestion for improvement?

Hawk 16 (Primal) Ranged

1 Health < 25% -> Sacrifice
2 Health < 25% -> Grave robber
3 Health < 25% -> Deactivate Blood Magic
4 Health < 25% -> Use Health potion
5 Enemy DISORIENTED -> Stonefist
6 Enemy STAGGERED -> Haemorrhage
7 Enemy STAGGERED -> Chain Lightning
8 Enemy normal -> Use for next tactic
9 Enemy health >= 75% -> Blood Slave
10 Enemy Elite or higher -> Petrify
11 Any -> Summon Mabari
12 Any ->Rock Armour
13 Enemy clustered 3+ -> Chain Lightning
14 Enemy clustered 3+ -> Cone of Cold
15 Enemy clustered 4+ -> Tempest
16 Enemy Highest health -> Petrify
17 Enemy nearest -> Stonefist
18 Mana < 25% -> Activate Blood magic
19 Enemy clustered 3+ -> Haemorrhage
20 Self surrounded by 3+ -> Grave robber

Edited by Sriep, 23 March 2011 - 07:53 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Graunt wrote...

SuicidialBaby wrote...
Personnally, I think of going BM 2nd spec as something of a cop-out. But if people are coming for basic advice, hence the "basics" heading, its wise to have them wait till 14.

I'm confused.  You're writing a help guide for Blood Mages, and say not to get Blood Magic until your second specialization, yet don't actually feel that's justified?  Can you list any valid reasons to pick it up at level 7 other than for 25 health?  None of your good abilities open up until much later on anyway, while you can get Unshakable at 8, Gravitic at 10.

I'm writing a Compendium, not a help guide, that is consequencial.  A compendium is a concise, yet comprehensive compilation of a body of knowledge.  I was giving my opinion based more to the theme, not structure, of being a blood mage.  That opinion had nothing to do with justification or advice, but more of being a blood mage the entire time it was availible.  I did say some the same things you are about that subject and I would suggest no less for anyone seeking helpful information about the direction they should take at that point.

Jaedo wrote...
It wasn't an insult, more of a metaphorical way of saying that he is getting upset over nothing, especially since the compendium isn't complete.

I'm missing half of the conversation, or things were edited out, so I don't know if you were talking about my responses or not.  It's not about "getting upset over nothing" and it doesn't matter if the guide is finished or not.  Plate is simply not a superior choice after ACT 1 (Blood Dragon chest), and it's an even worse option in ACT 3.  This isn't just a guess, it's a fact.  If it seems like I'm being too hardcore with what you might think is just an opinion, it's because it seems like there is this oddball "plate revolution" going on around the forums where people keep suggesting it again and again.  Most of the time it's suggested to wear it as early as possible, and that ends up making it much harder to actually DO anything early - mid game, and by the end game you already reach the 80% armor cap with just Rock Armor and cloth.  You'll also be sitting at close to 50% Magic Resist, which you can't get by not spending points into WIL and just wearing Plate.

He insulted you, in my opinion, I asked him to remove it as there were no grounds for it and he did.

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 26 March 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[SuicidalBaby]

Sriep wrote...

 
Here is my attempt at TACTICS for a level 16 blood mage / primal build. I am a little worried about Cone of cold due to friendly fire, but it can be so useful if mobbed. Any suggestion for improvement?
.
.
.

Little off the mark, try this:
80%+ sustains already on manually

Self hp <50% - Deactivate Blood Magic
Self hp < 50% - set condition next tactic
Self mana <25% - Lyrium Poultice
Self hp <50% - Health Poultice
Self Surrounded by 2 or more enemies - Mind Blast
Ally hp < 50% - Heal (Merrill will be 50% deactivation Blood Magic so you don't heal her while its up)
Ally hp < 75% -  Barrier (if Merrill is in party 50%)
Self: Surrounded by 2 enemies - Set Condition for next
Self hp <75% - Grave Robber
Self hp <75% - Set condition for next
Tank hp >90% - Sacrifice
Self hp > 75% Activate Blood Magic
Enemy using magic attack > dispel/stonefist
Enemy nearest visable rogue > Horror/Petrify
Enemy Elite or higher - Hex of Torment
Enemy Staggered - set condition next
Enemy Clustered with 2 more - Chain Lightning
Enemy Staggered - set condition next
Enemy Clustered with 2 more - Hemmorage

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 02 April 2011 - 08:33 PM.

[SuicidalBaby]

reserved

Edited by SuicidialBaby, 23 March 2011 - 10:31 PM.