367 réponses à ce sujet

[Bones40]

Gaunt wrote...
Right, I know what it does, I've just never been in a situation where I thought "Hmm, if only I could pull this group together."  The main reason to do something like that for me would be to Assault or Scatter.  Walking Bomb is an obvious choice, except it's not that easy to setup, especially if you're using the tank to gather them up first.  I've been wanting to try out a 100% Spirit Resist tank setup with that, but it's a gimmick that's much later in the game.

I always just use Gravitic as a speed bump/snare if I don't need to lock something specific down and cast area of effect spells half way to the center of it and most of the weaker enemies are dead before they get out, and those that aren't are below half life unless they are an elite.  From there it's just range fire with the Tank picking up a few stragglers. Friendly Fire kills much of the awesomeness of the Force tree, because below Nightmare you can do some extremely crazy things.

Really?  You don't see a use for gathering up all the mobs in a pretty large area into one spot, hitting them with Gravatic Ring so they are all very near the center resulting in basically the entire screen of enemies being frozen in the middle just begging to be CCC'd to death in a heartbeat with no fear of hitting any teammates?  It works much better than taunt for me, to gather a lot of enemies in one spot and you don't have to worry about your tank in there.

Granted, the opportunity to catch that many enemies with it doesn't present itself in all fights...but it's there in most.

Modifié par Bones40, 24 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[Graunt]

Bones40 wrote...
Really?  You don't see a use for gathering up all the mobs in a pretty large area into one spot, hitting them with Gravatic Ring so they are all very near the center resulting in basically the entire screen of enemies being frozen in the middle just begging to be CCC'd to death in a heartbeat with no fear of hitting any teammates?  It works much better than taunt for me, to gather a lot of enemies in one spot and you don't have to worry about your tank in there.

I've already said what it's uses are, and I already have it covered 99% of the time with just Gravitic alone. On top of that, Pull has some extremely screwed up mechanics and almost each time you use it, bodies bounce off of one another and go flying AWAY from the center. Half of the group lands where you want, the other half is completely random.

I've found even bothering with Pull just for Walking Bomb actually slows down my playing considerably.  Pull does not "freeze" your enemies, it snares them for all of 5s.  You have to already have Gravitic down before you use it or they get dispersed too quickly, and even then most of the time they won't land directly in the center.  It's quite possible I'm just "doing it wrong", but my first impression with this spell from my very first playthrough has not changed at all after trying it again.  My kills are faster simply allowing Aveline to get 5-6 quick staggers and just Hemorrhage.

Only upgrade damage portion of WB.

Yeah, it only takes one point to reach Walking Bomb after Spirit Bolt, and then you need to upgrade Spirit Bolt (or get dispel) to get the damage component.  That's all you need to spend.  Virulent is a completely imbalanced waste of space.  I ended up ditching Fireball/Firestorm and the upgrades for Anders simply because he doesn't have a really high Magic score to equip the higher damage staves yet, so those spells weren't really cutting it.  

I could have just gone Tempest again, but wanted something besides straight Lightning for both Mages, although now that I have the upgraded Walking Bomb, I'm going to go back to Primal with him.  So far though, the bombs have not actually been doing much at all.  Enemies are too spread out and there needs to be more than six before it even starts to even look like it's worth it over just Chain Lightning/Hemorrhage/Fist of the Maker.  It's more like a fun gimmick requiring a large time investment for setups than anything practical.

That and I'm tired of Pull crapping out and pushing everything away from the target.

Glad I'm not the only one seeing this...
As for that annoying noise with Gravitic -- that usually only happens when something directly in the center is trying to use an ability, like the Assassin vanish.  They won't vanish, but you can't attack them if they are in that state.  Usually I only use Gravitic on Assassins as a lockdown. Petrify (Dessicate) is what I use to actually kill them.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 04:41 .

[godlike13]

VWB gives the disoriented bonus, i'd hardly call it a waste of space. There are lots of times enemies are bunched, and if not Pull of the Abyss will bunch them nicely enough.

[Graunt]

godlike13 wrote...

VWB gives the disoriented bonus, i'd hardly call it a waste of space. There are lots of times enemies are bunched, and if not Pull of the Abyss will bunch them nicely enough.

It doesn't "give" disorient, it requires a Rogue disorienting first to up it's damage.  The damage boost is rarely needed unless you're just killing the weakest enemies with it.  But then that also requires a very heavy investment in the Sabotage tree, and the Fog just doesn't seem worth it for how many damage skills you give up to get it.  You also must have missed it where other people than just myself listed the problem with Pull.  It's entirely too random where enemies actually end up.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[SuicidalBaby]

ive been having success wall loading with pull. corners are awesome.

[KodiakAsh]

Just a heads up, not sure if it's been addressed, but the DPS on a staff determines damage on spells. If you want to test that theory just take a staff that has low DPS and check the spell damage and then put on a higher DPS staff and you'll see the spell damage go up. So don't ignore staves like Cold Blooded even if you don't do any cold damage (since it'll boost the damage of all spells due to the sheer DPS boost).

[SuicidalBaby]

bit much when freebees sit right under it.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 25 mars 2011 - 12:28 .

[Graunt]

KodiakAsh wrote...

Just a heads up, not sure if it's been addressed, but the DPS on a staff determines damage on spells. If you want to test that theory just take a staff that has low DPS and check the spell damage and then put on a higher DPS staff and you'll see the spell damage go up. So don't ignore staves like Cold Blooded even if you don't do any cold damage (since it'll boost the damage of all spells due to the sheer DPS boost).

I already knew this, and mentioned it in the "Mages are gimp" thread, when GrumpyOldWizard was complaining about how he had his Magic score up to 50+ and his spell damage wasn't that high.  42 Magic is the highest you should ever consider on your Mage for anything (35 + Valiance).  Also, as Suicidal stated, there's no point in Cold-Blooded unless you just want ACT 2 to be easier and have no money to spend on anything else later on.  There are also a handful of very good staves that don't even have any requirement at all to equip.

When I have the inclination, if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'm going to write a list of the spells and what their multipliers seem to be from both 1 point of Magic as well as staves.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Tomark]

Graunt wrote...


I already knew this, and mentioned it in the "Mages are gimp" thread, when GrumpyOldWizard was complaining about how he had his Magic score up to 50+ and his spell damage wasn't that high.  42 Magic is the highest you should ever consider on your Mage for anything (35 + Valiance).  Also, as Suicidal stated, there's no point in Cold-Blooded unless you just want ACT 2 to be easier and have no money to spend on anything else later on.  There are also a handful of very good staves that don't even have any requirement at all to equip.

When I have the inclination, if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'm going to write a list of the spells and what their multipliers seem to be from both 1 point of Magic as well as staves.

Doesn't magic *also* increases the damage you make with your spells (like the staff)?

I was pretty sure it did. Has someone checked equipping the same staff to 2 different mages and use the same spell?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

Just a heads up, not sure if it's been addressed, but the DPS on a staff determines damage on spells. If you want to test that theory just take a staff that has low DPS and check the spell damage and then put on a higher DPS staff and you'll see the spell damage go up. So don't ignore staves like Cold Blooded even if you don't do any cold damage (since it'll boost the damage of all spells due to the sheer DPS boost).

I already knew this, and mentioned it in the "Mages are gimp" thread, when GrumpyOldWizard was complaining about how he had his Magic score up to 50+ and his spell damage wasn't that high. 

Of course, I already knew that staff damage is a pirmary component in spell damage and have said as much many times. Of course the higher your Magic stat the higher your spell damage also. And yes, mages do inferior damage compared to the other classes. Actually my final magic stat with gear was 89 (82% magic resistance.)

Oh, I was also using Final Thought for that reason.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 25 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Tomark wrote...

Doesn't magic *also* increases the damage you make with your spells (like the staff)?

I was pretty sure it did. Has someone checked equipping the same staff to 2 different mages and use the same spell?

Yes, but Graunt claims mages are so powerful they make things blow up by just looking at them. He has yet to produce a video of mages killing as fast as warriors though.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 25 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Oh, I just loaded the post game save for Magivach. The extra points he put in Magic past 42 netted him a gain of 50 damage on chain lightning (223--->273.) You have to decide if the 22.4% increase in damage  for all spells iis worth it to you.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 25 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Graunt]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Oh, I just loaded the post game save for Magivach. The extra points he put in Magic past 42 netted him a gain of 50 damage on chain lightning (223--->273.) You have to decide if the 22.4% increase in damage  for all spells iis worth it to you.

Not all spells have the same modifier from Magic.  You also have to decide if the extra damage is worth being a corpse more often than not.  You can already get a 75% increase in electrical damage from gear and Galvanism, which is more than enough to one shot multiple normal enemies and take away most life from Assassins on a crit.  When enemies are not going to die anyway from your single spell, and two are required regardless, the extra points into Magic aren't worth it.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Oh, I just loaded the post game save for Magivach. The extra points he put in Magic past 42 netted him a gain of 50 damage on chain lightning (223--->273.) You have to decide if the 22.4% increase in damage  for all spells iis worth it to you.

Not all spells have the same modifier from Magic.  You also have to decide if the extra damage is worth being a corpse more often than not. 

Errrrr....Magivach was seldom on the ground. About the only thing that killed him was "you are dead" spells from blood mages or assassins spawining behind him in a wave and insta-killing him.

[godlike13]

My mage didn't die much either, and he was way above 42 in magic. He had decent Con though, not to mention a high mana regen.

Modifié par godlike13, 25 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Graunt]

At 13/20/30/40 Magic the damage for each (upgraded) spell without a staff is:

Chain Lightning - 16/28/44/60
Stone Fist - 30/55/85/115
Tempest - 3/6/9/13
Hemorrhage - 34/61/94/128
Fist of the Maker - 9/16/25/34
Spirit Bolt - 20/36/57/77
Walking Bomb - 13/24/38/51
Dispel - 13/24/38/51
Paralyzing Prison - 72/129/201/273
Winter's Grasp - 22/40/63/85
Cone of Cold - 15/27/43/58
Fireball - 7/12/19/26
Firestorm - 9/16/25/34

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:

Chain Lightning - 179/195
Stone Fist - 345/376
Tempest - 38/42
Hemorrhage - 384/417
Fist of the Maker - 102/111
Spirit Bolt - 230/250
Walking Bomb - 154/167
Dispel - 154/167
Paralyzing Prison - 819/890
Winter's Grasp - 256/278
Cone of Cold - 174/189
Fireball - 77/83
Firestorm - 102/111

Actually, it looks like the increase greatly diminishes with a weapon equipped or after a specific Magic level.  The gains are definitely not 20% going from 40 Magic to 50 Magic. Looks more like 9% - 10% or approximately 1% per point.  That's entirely excluding end of tree bonuses or bonuses from gear however.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 08:31 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Graunt wrote...

KodiakAsh wrote...

Just a heads up, not sure if it's been addressed, but the DPS on a staff determines damage on spells. If you want to test that theory just take a staff that has low DPS and check the spell damage and then put on a higher DPS staff and you'll see the spell damage go up. So don't ignore staves like Cold Blooded even if you don't do any cold damage (since it'll boost the damage of all spells due to the sheer DPS boost).

I already knew this, and mentioned it in the "Mages are gimp" thread, when GrumpyOldWizard was complaining about how he had his Magic score up to 50+ and his spell damage wasn't that high.  42 Magic is the highest you should ever consider on your Mage for anything (35 + Valiance).  Also, as Suicidal stated, there's no point in Cold-Blooded unless you just want ACT 2 to be easier and have no money to spend on anything else later on.  There are also a handful of very good staves that don't even have any requirement at all to equip.

When I have the inclination, if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'm going to write a list of the spells and what their multipliers seem to be from both 1 point of Magic as well as staves.

Cut this "I" crap out graunt. He was talking to everyone. Please keep the fights with Grumpy off this thread. Seriously unwarrented.

[Graunt]

SuicidialBaby wrote...
Cut this "I" crap out graunt. He was talking to everyone. Please keep the fights with Grumpy off this thread. Seriously unwarrented.

I never said he was specifically addressing me, and I was simply reaffirming his statement.  Thanks for the attempts at policing posts however.

[SuicidalBaby]

I did carry some vain hope you might actually appreciate what I was hoping to convey rather than the simple words used to say it. Its called a request.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 25 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[maegi46]

So um while this thread is entertaining and I learned some things from it, where is all the blood mage information I thought it was going to include? That so called Money Guide is just a thread...it doesn't say how or where to get the silverite or lyrium therefore not sure why you're linking it as a guide? Not a diss, merely an observation.

[Graunt]

maegi46 wrote...

So um while this thread is entertaining and I learned some things from it, where is all the blood mage information I thought it was going to include? That so called Money Guide is just a thread...it doesn't say how or where to get the silverite or lyrium therefore not sure why you're linking it as a guide? Not a diss, merely an observation.

Lyrium:  ACT 1 - Bone Pit, Runaway's Cavern (Act of Mercy), Tal-Vashoth Cavern.  
ACT 2 - Bone Pit, Dank Cave.  
ACT 3 - Sundermount Caverns.

Silverite: ACT 1 - Vimmark Mountain Pass (Shepherding Wolves quest at the end), Deep Roads, Tal-Vashoth Cavern, Sundermount Caverns  (Long Way Home).  
ACT 2 - Sundermount Caverns, Smuggler's Cut (Blackpowder quest).

Modifié par Graunt, 25 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[SuicidalBaby]

maegi46 wrote...

So um while this thread is entertaining and I learned some things from it, where is all the blood mage information I thought it was going to include? That so called Money Guide is just a thread...it doesn't say how or where to get the silverite or lyrium therefore not sure why you're linking it as a guide? Not a diss, merely an observation.

its being built from the ground up on a ps3 controller. think you can do better stud?

that guide shows you exactly where and how to find the resources to produce rune of fortunes in the fastest legit way possible. learn to read.

i wonder if he could observe my foot as I guided it up his ass.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 25 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[AKOdin]

maegi46 wrote...

So um while this thread is entertaining and I learned some things from it, where is all the blood mage information I thought it was going to include? That so called Money Guide is just a thread...it doesn't say how or where to get the silverite or lyrium therefore not sure why you're linking it as a guide? Not a diss, merely an observation.

... What would have been more helpful in finding the Lyrium or Silverite required? The Money thread has the resources highlighted in bold along with their locations. Did you just zoom over it or what is lacking? 

Graunt's listing of the locations everywhere in the game is also helpful, but obviously you can't access all of those sources in Act 1.

[SuicidalBaby]

Updated Money Guide with video walkthrough for the innept.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 26 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[Colma]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Updated Money thread with video walkthrough for the innept.

haha, like you more with each post m8 .

Just finished act 1 with my solo mage on nightmare. Pretty much just like all the solo rogue guides/vids out there, lots of kiting but instead of steath you stun 'n run...same effect in the end. Can't wait to hit bloodmage. I've gotten an absurd amount of mileage from walking bomb so far. I've tried it both solo and with a no-tank party and it's absolute money on nightmare with the right set up.