367 réponses à ce sujet

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Grave Robber/ One Foot in looks more attractive than Sacrifice considering the bug.

How's that?  Sacrifice doesn't actually cost you anything to cast.  Then again, I never bother buying any ring other than the Ring of Ruin and The Fallen Star anyway.  I read what the bug is supposed to do, but shouldn't the spell already have a casting cost before the bug could even work?  If it's just taking more health away from your target than it should be, then that can be an issue, if it's more than 40%, but otherwise I'm not seeing the issue.  I still see no use for Grave Robber either, but that's just me.

I also don't remember the Tevinter merchant, but I've never gone back to that cave after the quest was finished.

Nevermind,. I went back and reread the bug thread. Yeah, the rings shold not be used at all.

The merchant is outside the cave, not inside. But you can go inside the cave and when you exit the game creates an autosave You can shop and if there is nothing there you want then you reload the autosave and shop again. If you buy something and want to continue shopping you reenter and exit the cave to create another autosave and continue shopping/reloading.

I just transformed my level 15 mage into a blood mage. This is what she looks like. I've got to work out attribute point assignment. At level 16 she'll take Bloodlust.

[Ace Attorney]

Anyone tried a Spirit Healer / Blood Mage build?

[SuicidalBaby]

with out exploiting the game its a very tedious poor build. I cant suggest it.

[Ace Attorney]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

with out exploiting the game its a very tedious poor build. I cant suggest it.

Why? I can see a few benefits:
Extra Con and Heal regen.
No need for injury kits, you can sell everyone you find.
No need for Anders (for RP reasons, if you like Sebastian, or simply hate him).

[SuicidalBaby]

i already sell every kit, i dont die.
extra con is 5 points in, compare those 5 points to Force Mage
w/ vengeance anders i get 32 second heals & 48 second barriers before martyr spam
Sebastion/Anders issues affect all of about 1% of total game-time and carry even less weight when compared to the Force Mage option. respec if you go templars.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 04:45 .

[SuicidalBaby]

updated:
added Aveline Build: Beast Mode
revamped all stat builds

[Ace Attorney]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

i already sell every kit, i dont die.

Good for you, not everybody does as well.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

extra con is 5 points in, compare those 5 points to Force Mage

They are comparable. Group Healing, a Rez spell, and extra con/regen is an even trade with Unshakable, the Ring, and Fist. Both are supportive.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

w/ vengeance anders i get 32 second heals & 48 second barriers before martyr spam

Without him, you get another character!

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Sebastion/Anders issues affect all of about 1% of total game-time and carry even less weight when compared to the Force Mage option. respec if you go templars.

Again, not everyone enjoys Anders (I'm one of those).

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time.

Sorry if I come off as aggressive.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 01 avril 2011 - 11:33 .

[rumination888]

T3hAnubis wrote...

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time.

Sorry if I come off as aggressive.

Keep in mind that, as of patch 1.01, Revive/Regroup is bugged and will make your party members invincible. SuicidalBaby may have had that in mind when dismissing SH.

I never encounted that bug on my mage run, so take that as you will.

[SuicidalBaby]

Good for you, not everybody does as well. - I'll leave that one alone.

They are comparable. Group Healing, a Rez spell, and extra con/regen is an even trade with Unshakable, the Ring, and Fist. Both are supportive.
Constitution: saying, "You can take more hits while being knocked around is worth the same as standing your ground and stomping the damage dealer into the void" just doesn't cut it, esspecially when it only takes two points to aquire verses five. 
Rez and Healing are reactive abilities that sit dormant untill certain conditions have been met.  Where Ring, Fist, Pull, Telekinetic are all proactive in determining who goes where and what is or is not going to happen next.  They are not support spells, they are controling spells that dominate the battlefield 100%.  I don't see any comparison other than value of each point spent.

Without him, you get another character!  
Anders is actually 3 different characters balled up into 1 mass, you're losing 2.  Where Sabastion is a sub for Varric more often than not.  If anyone is to be compared to Anders, its Merrill,  substituting damage, debuffs, and control for lack of healing.  Increasing overall dps to reduce the need for healing.  (granted, Anders can dish out some serious dps if speced properly, more than Merrill even if she was tuned up proper, forcing me to side with the abomination, again.)

Again, not everyone enjoys Anders (I'm one of those). - see above.

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time. 
Disregarding traditional playstyle is not a condition of this Compendium.  They are also ignoring some very easily obtained resistances and immunities for any warrior companion not named Carver or Fenris they are bringing into the group.  If someone did a Scorched Earth Build, that involved Blood Mage and Spirit Healer without exploiting mechanics I would be happy to include it, but it's not on my plate at the moment.  Till then I would have to say, "good for them" and not everyone does as well.



Sorry if I come off as aggressive. 
Passionate conversation does that to people, it's a good thing.

edit:

rumination888 wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time.

Sorry if I come off as aggressive.

Keep in mind that, as of patch 1.01, Revive/Regroup is bugged and will make your party members invincible. SuicidalBaby may have had that in mind when dismissing SH.

I never encounted that bug on my mage run, so take that as you will.

This is part of the reason I feel Regroup and Revive should not be used.  In my first playthrough on DA2, nightmare, I encountered this several times.  The first time, Aveline got owned, hard.  I had Anders with regroup.  She got up just as Anders was Rogued, everyone else was dead.  She took out the rest of the 12 normal/critters while tanking the rogue through every single backstab.  Healing as if she was out of combat. 

The other reasons have to deal with tactics ignoring the fact that Panacea or Healing Aura are not active and still firing off abilities as if they were.  (I realize it is the same deal with Blood Mage, which is why my tactics suggestions are set as they are to prevent it from occuring.)  Vengeance actually triggers when Anders tries to use Martyr with it deactivated.

Another reason would be that Blood Magic is flagged as a Hostile ability.  Healing Aura strictly forbids the use of any Hostile spell/ability while active.  90% of people using Spirit Healer/Blood Mage are in fact abusing the mechanic of activating one first, then the other, working around the restriction.  In my view, that is abusing game mechanics and using an exploit,  I will not validate it by including it in this compendium.  I understand that they can be used seperately, but as I have stated, doing so is tedious and requires more tactics and micro-managing than should be required simply to avoid conflicts and function properly.  Otherwise, untill I have been informed from a dev that those 2 abilities are intended to be used at the same time, my interpretation will be the standard for this pillar of information.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 01:30 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Anyone tried a Spirit Healer / Blood Mage build?

I posted mine, and average expression from playing it, on page 6.
As about SuicidialBaby's thoughts on the matter, I believe he, as many other people, still can't shake DA:O's experience of a mage being an artillery battery. I for myself prefer more balanced and supportive build for my mage for following reasons:
- I hate Anders.
- I like playing overall balanced mage. Also, it feels as playing mage/cleric, and I like clerics and druids. Played SP/BM/Keeper in the first one.
- In future DLC's perhaps I would't have particular characters I would like to travel with, so I packed everything I need in one character.
- I. Love. Micromanagement. (on the contrary, being a healer yourself and controlling everything, you end up with lesser micromanagement for your party members, even if with more for yourself).

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 01 avril 2011 - 01:37 .

[SuicidalBaby]

You do realize my mage builds all contain barrier and heal as well as cc, debuffs, and buffs. The basic definition of balanced... heh. So.. I kind of believe you're wrong on what you believe other people think a mage is. I actually come from a Baulder's Gate point of view, where support spells are nice, which is why you get them. But you shouldn't lean on them. More damage/control always equates to less healing required.  BG being more of a first strike combat system.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 02:54 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

This ring +spirit ward socketed armor and 3 socket shield gives Aveline 99% spirit resistance.

Gallows Shops:  Soivitus (Act 2)

Ring of the Faithful [5gold 4 silver]
+11 defense
+7% healing to this character
+179 spirit resistance

3 socket shields:
Lady Rosamunds Bulwark (Emporium, Act 1)

Mages Friend [Faith quest--Sebastion, Act 3]

Where is the Dreamcatcher Amulet ? It should push resistance to 100%. Bombs away!

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 01 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[SuicidalBaby]

1 rune in Lord somethings bulwark late game is worth 1700 resistance. any type.

the act 1 shield is of reduced value in comparison to Lion of Orlais

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 03:23 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I actually come from a Baulder's Gate point of view

Where you should micro every caster to make them work the best.

And still, even with Heal and Haste, BM/Force is the most attack-builded choice, which people tend to lean to. I don't think you can argue with that.

[SuicidalBaby]

Doesn't mean it isn't balanced. If anything spirit healer is unbalanced, seeing that it lacks any form of control, attack, or debuff.


lol

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

As long as I can bring people back from the dead, eh, I think I'll live with it.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 01 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[SuicidalBaby]

I am unfamilier with that. What does one do with a dead companion?

[Ace Attorney]

SuicidialBaby wrote...


They are comparable. Group Healing, a Rez spell, and extra con/regen is an even trade with Unshakable, the Ring, and Fist. Both are supportive.
Constitution: saying, "You can take more hits while being knocked around is worth the same as standing your ground and stomping the damage dealer into the void" just doesn't cut it, esspecially when it only takes two points to aquire verses five. 
Rez and Healing are reactive abilities that sit dormant untill certain conditions have been met.  Where Ring, Fist, Pull, Telekinetic are all proactive in determining who goes where and what is or is not going to happen next.  They are not support spells, they are controling spells that dominate the battlefield 100%.  I don't see any comparison other than value of each point spent.

Battlefield control is a form of support. Support is aiding your allies do their job better (Battlefield control like Force spells / Offensive buffs) or maintain them longer so they said job longer (Healing / Defensive buffs).

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Without him, you get another character!  
Anders is actually 3 different characters balled up into 1 mass, you're losing 2.  Where Sabastion is a sub for Varric more often than not.  If anyone is to be compared to Anders, its Merrill,  substituting damage, debuffs, and control for lack of healing.  Increasing overall dps to reduce the need for healing.  (granted, Anders can dish out some serious dps if speced properly, more than Merrill even if she was tuned up proper, forcing me to side with the abomination, again.)


Again, not everyone enjoys Anders (I'm one of those). - see above.

Sebastian can reduce Damage resistance, hence more DPS by everyone. He isn't necessarily a sub for Varric, they work well together.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time. 
Disregarding traditional playstyle is not a condition of this Compendium.  They are also ignoring some very easily obtained resistances and immunities for any warrior companion not named Carver or Fenris they are bringing into the group.  If someone did a Scorched Earth Build, that involved Blood Mage and Spirit Healer without exploiting mechanics I would be happy to include it, but it's not on my plate at the moment.  Till then I would have to say, "good for them" and not everyone does as well.

They don't ignore it, in fact, Elemental Aegis, et al, are part of them. Revival is plan B.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

 

rumination888 wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

I also read of people using successfully Firestorm and FF Spells and reviving in Nightmare. That is only possible with SH, due to injuries you will accumulate over time.

Sorry if I come off as aggressive.

Keep in mind that, as of patch 1.01, Revive/Regroup is bugged and will make your party members invincible. SuicidalBaby may have had that in mind when dismissing SH.

I never encounted that bug on my mage run, so take that as you will.

This is part of the reason I feel Regroup and Revive should not be used.  In my first playthrough on DA2, nightmare, I encountered this several times.  The first time, Aveline got owned, hard.  I had Anders with regroup.  She got up just as Anders was Rogued, everyone else was dead.  She took out the rest of the 12 normal/critters while tanking the rogue through every single backstab.  Healing as if she was out of combat. 

The other reasons have to deal with tactics ignoring the fact that Panacea or Healing Aura are not active and still firing off abilities as if they were.  (I realize it is the same deal with Blood Mage, which is why my tactics suggestions are set as they are to prevent it from occuring.)  Vengeance actually triggers when Anders tries to use Martyr with it deactivated.

Another reason would be that Blood Magic is flagged as a Hostile ability.  Healing Aura strictly forbids the use of any Hostile spell/ability while active.  90% of people using Spirit Healer/Blood Mage are in fact abusing the mechanic of activating one first, then the other, working around the restriction.  In my view, that is abusing game mechanics and using an exploit,  I will not validate it by including it in this compendium.  I understand that they can be used seperately, but as I have stated, doing so is tedious and requires more tactics and micro-managing than should be required simply to avoid conflicts and function properly.  Otherwise, untill I have been informed from a dev that those 2 abilities are intended to be used at the same time, my interpretation will be the standard for this pillar of information.

Who said the BM/SH will use an exploit? Assumptions out of thing air (90% what?) are evil! More evil than exploits.
That type of Mage Hawke will rarely go on auto pilot anyway. As does almost any Hawke.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 01 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Manipulation of the battlefield is not support, dictating where the battle takes place is an artform and disipline all of its own. You misunderstand the definition or you would realize what it is those spells are actually acomplishing.

I did, just there. See it? I said that. Why? Because people have said they use it.

Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn!

I have given my reasons and shown you the exceptions I will accept. I have yet to see 1. 1. 1. 1. Any 1 produced of value, what so ever. Just more arguing over moot points. This isn't a force mage/spirit healer thread. This is a blood mage thread, the best spec for a blood mage is, by far(an entire universe of proactive thought), force mage/blood mage. How ever shallow the reach into those trees simply out weighs the whole of spirit healer. I would rather have 2 points in force mage than spirit healer, I would rather have 1 point in blood mage then the entire tree of spirit healer. Why? Because it is forward thinking.

If you plan for deaths, there will be deaths.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[Ace Attorney]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Manipulation of the battlefield is not support, dictating where the battle takes place is an artform and disipline all of its own. You must be misunderstand the definition or you would realize what it is those spells are actually acomplishing.

I do realize what they do. I think you don't understand the definition of the word support yourself (see entry 5, 6, and 9). If I dictate where my ally's target will be, I'm giving support to him. Whether you think "an artform and disipline" is irrelevant.
I'll agree to disagree.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I did, just there. See it? I said that. Why? Because people have said they use it.

Saying 90% do it is an assumption, not a fact. I can say the same about Panacea and Aid Allies (and you did), so would that invalidate Anders? Nope. Just because you can do an exploit doesn't mean you will.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn!

I have given my reasons and shown you the exceptions I will accept. I have yet to see 1. 1. 1. 1. Any 1 produced of value, what so ever. Just more arguing over moot points. This isn't a force mage/spirit healer thread. This is a blood mage thread, the best spec for a blood mage is, by far(an entire universe of proactive thought), force mage/blood mage. How ever shallow the reach into those trees simply out weighs the whole of spirit healer. I would rather have 2 points in force mage than spirit healer, I would rather have 1 point in blood mage then the entire tree of spirit healer. Why? Because it is forward thinking.

If you plan for deaths, there will be deaths.

Did I EVER mentioned force mage/spirit healer? Nope, always talked blood mage/spirit healer.





This is your topic, but don't talk so smug. Losing respect bro.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 01 avril 2011 - 08:00 .

[ezrafetch]

Just to chime in, I think if you want to read up on Spirit Healers, I did compile a Spirit Healer guide. Hate to plug myself, but if you want help with your Spirit Healer...I would go that way.

BM/SH can still work. But you'd be done around lvl26-27 like this. You'd still be using BM offensively with Paralyzing Hemorrhage, but the real key for taking Spirit Healer in the given instance is because you will totally kill all your teammates all the time thanks to the Elemental tree. You will need to revive them yourself, heal them yourself. You'll have to find a way to mitigate knockback in the early levels, but endgame it'd definitely work.

No one takes SH because they think it's "not cool" to heal. That's all it is. Hawke is still the best healer in the game. That being said, FM/BM is the most offensive of the spec combinations, so if that's the way you roll, that's the way you roll. But I like Spirit Healer because it's flexible and it gives more leeway in combat. It allows you to be stupid risky with nuking places up, or it allows you to serve as a battlemaster, managing the battle and ensuring its success.  i think once more people start tinkering outside of just "Primal/Force/Blood" they will see that the Mage is probably the most flexible out of the three classes.

So if you are say this is a Blood Mage Compendium, then you should still address BM/SH because it is a viable combination.  That's all, really.

I don't think you can simply say "Anders can do the healing!!!" especially in the instance I gave above because in 9/10 cases you will kill Anders yourself via Firestorm/Cone of Cold (or he will kill himself wandering into melee range) since his AI is so ******-poor.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 01 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[SuicidalBaby]

The Art:

II. WAGING WAR

8. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy,
neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.

IV. TACTICAL DISPOSITIONS


1. Sun Tzu said: The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

2. To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself.
3. Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat,
but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.

4. Hence the saying: One may know how to conquer
without being able to do it.

5. Security against defeat implies defensive tactics;
ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive.

6. Standing on the defensive indicates insufficient
strength; attacking, a superabundance of strength.

7. The general who is skilled in defense hides in the
most secret recesses of the earth; he who is skilled in
attack flashes forth from the topmost heights of heaven.
Thus on the one hand we have ability to protect ourselves;
on the other, a victory that is complete.

8. To see victory only when it is within the ken
of the common herd is not the acme of excellence.

9. Neither is it the acme of excellence if you fight
and conquer and the whole Empire says, "Well done!"

10. To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength;
to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight;
to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.

11. What the ancients called a clever fighter is
one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.

12. Hence his victories bring him neither reputation
for wisdom nor credit for courage.

13. He wins his battles by making no mistakes.
Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty
of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is
already defeated.

14. Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into
a position which makes defeat impossible, and does
not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.

15. Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist
only seeks battle after the victory has been won,
whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights
and afterwards looks for victory.

16. The consummate leader cultivates the moral law,
and strictly adheres to method and discipline; thus it is
in his power to control success.

17. In respect of military method, we have,
firstly, Measurement; secondly, Estimation of quantity;
thirdly, Calculation; fourthly, Balancing of chances;
fifthly, Victory.

18. Measurement owes its existence to Earth;
Estimation of quantity to Measurement; Calculation to
Estimation of quantity; Balancing of chances to Calculation;
and Victory to Balancing of chances.

19. A victorious army opposed to a routed one, is as
a pound's weight placed in the scale against a single grain.

20. The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting
of pent-up waters into a chasm a thousand fathoms deep.

[SuicidalBaby]

ezrafetch wrote...

So, is that the order you would obtain those abilities in?

[ezrafetch]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

ezrafetch wrote...

So, is that the order you would obtain those abilities in?

Hah, no.  It'd be...some place to start, though.  I just threw it together really quickly without concern of a suitable progression.  Give me a little bit to come up with it, I'm not good at pure optimization (I am good enough at "reasonable" optimization, however).

Personally I'd just get by Act 1 with whatever (I went with Force Mage for Unshakable because I drew so much aggro starting fights off with Tempest), then when you get to Act 2, respec and start enjoying the build.  Generally Primal and Spirit Healer first, then split time between Blood Mage and Elemental (or choose one to finish first, then clean up the other).  Alternatively, only drop the first three points for Group Heal, Revival and Healing Aura, then get the rest done before coming back for Vitality and the like.  Depends on how you want to play before your endgame.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 01 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[Ace Attorney]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

*snip*

I'm well aware of Art of War by Sun-Tzu. But the "finish conflicts quickly" mentality is rather moot, as I have no real reason to do so. In actual warfare, you finance an army with money, so it makes sense. If I stop doing damage as a Mage, to Heal, I do prolong the fight, but in a video game like this, my resources for combat (potions) are in effect infinite (if I use them, I get resupplied free). It is choice in playstyle, nothing more.

Again, I'll agree to disagree.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 01 avril 2011 - 08:35 .