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[NKKKK]

Baaleos wrote...

I just went to the Chantry in DA2, and read the book about the Maker.

He made his 'First Born', and they lived in the fade, and they would sing, but they would sing the song of cobblestones.

The Maker grew angry however, because they would not create anything of their own, and he abandoned the first born, in favor of the second born, who were Humans, Elves etc.
He locked himself within the Golden City, watching the wonderous things that the second born would create.

Old Gods = First Born? (they continue to sing, while they sleep?)

The Maker sounds so petty

[Morroian]

Baaleos wrote...

I just went to the Chantry in DA2, and read the book about the Maker.

He made his 'First Born', and they lived in the fade, and they would sing, but they would sing the song of cobblestones.

The Maker grew angry however, because they would not create anything of their own, and he abandoned the first born, in favor of the second born, who were Humans, Elves etc.
He locked himself within the Golden City, watching the wonderous things that the second born would create.

Old Gods = First Born? (they continue to sing, while they sleep?)

Isn't there another codex which states that the first born were spirits and demons.

[SeanNorm]

Baaleos wrote...

'He' will rise.

Morrigan's baby is a male?
And technically is an uncorrupted Old God.

He would be about 11 years old at the end of DA2?

That is an interesting thought, but what if a Warden refused the Dark Ritual? If Sandal's prophecy is as big a part as we think (and knowing how Bioware streamlined this game) the baby will only be a small part of it. Like perhaps a minor appearance like Alistair if he was made king. That just my opinion though, there has to be more to that Dark Ritual thats for sure.

[King Killoth]

Alyka wrote...

Baaleos wrote...
Also - Is it ever explained about who the 'Old Lady' standing over his bed is, in Act 3? (He complains about a scarey old lady)
I suspected it might be Mommy (Leandra), but being honest, its 3-4 years after her death, seems random for her ghost to be haunting the house after that time.
Maybe its someone from Sandal's Backstory?

Maybe Flemeth visited him at night? o.o

I think Flemeth and sandal are both old gods walking the earth. they both can see the futer and both apear in the paths of the worlds most powerful heros. and both hate the darkspawn. they know eachother and I think their bodies are them asleep and flemeth is awake thats why she can turn intoi a dragon. bodhan said he found sandal in the deep raods by himself. perhaps thats where he was left by the maker.

[King Killoth]

Baaleos wrote...

I just went to the Chantry in DA2, and read the book about the Maker.

He made his 'First Born', and they lived in the fade, and they would sing, but they would sing the song of cobblestones.

The Maker grew angry however, because they would not create anything of their own, and he abandoned the first born, in favor of the second born, who were Humans, Elves etc.
He locked himself within the Golden City, watching the wonderous things that the second born would create.

Old Gods = First Born? (they continue to sing, while they sleep?)

no its been explaned that they are the demons and spirets of the fade. the old gods where more than that. the dalish say the gods lived on earth and where tricked into the hevens and the abyss by the dread wolf the only god of both factions. perhaps the dread wolf is the maker.

[Baaleos]

The only reason I draw the comparison between old gods and first born, is the singing.

It seems bit co-incidental, that the Dark Spawn, can hear a song coming from the Dragon Gods,
and the First Born would sing to the Creator on the fade - as said by the Makers Codex entry from the Chantry.

Dragon's Sleep = They are in the fade.
While they are in the fade, they sing = The song that the Dark Spawn can hear.

The Story about the Dread-Wolf is explained by Merril.
She doesnt say Demons warred with Gods or Spirits,
She explicitly said there were two groups of Gods. The DreadWolf was a trickster God, who played both sides off against eachother, telling both sides, that the opposition had a weapon that could end the conflict in their favor.

In order to get the ficticous weapon, both sides were tricked into the heavens and the hells, and sealed within by the DreadWolf, leaving only him in the world.

While there are similarities between this story and the Maker vs Old Gods, I dont think the Maker is really a wolf, and I dont think the Gods that he tricked where the 'Old Gods' that are Dragons.
But that being said, ya never know, The Elven do seem to have an appreciation for Dragon-Kin, hence why they are friendly with Flemeth.

Its more likely that the Dreadwolf story, is an interpretation of the Maker's banishment of the Old Gods to Earth, from an Elven point of view.
The only inconsistency is that
1. The Gods in the Dreadwolf story, were sealed away, not banished to earth as the Old Gods were apparently.
2. The Maker in the First Born story, sealed himself in the Golden City, meaning he cant be the Dreadwolf, as the Dreadwolf is said to have 'stayed' on earth.

Modifié par Baaleos, 23 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[Baaleos]

Morroian wrote...

Baaleos wrote...

I just went to the Chantry in DA2, and read the book about the Maker.

He made his 'First Born', and they lived in the fade, and they would sing, but they would sing the song of cobblestones.

The Maker grew angry however, because they would not create anything of their own, and he abandoned the first born, in favor of the second born, who were Humans, Elves etc.
He locked himself within the Golden City, watching the wonderous things that the second born would create.

Old Gods = First Born? (they continue to sing, while they sleep?)

Isn't there another codex which states that the first born were spirits and demons.

Your very possibly correct, I dont know for sure.
But I would rationally say, that since the Spirits and Demons represent sins and virtues of humanity.
eg - Rage Demon, Pride Demon, Desire Demon
eg - Justice Spirit, Courage Spirit, Faith Spirit

That in order for these to exist, Humanity would be a pre-requisite
I thought I heard in Origins that the spirits were created, to inspire Humanity as they slept/dreamt.

I could be rememebering incorrectly though.

[Talladarr]

Okay, I gotta ask. I OBVIOUSLY missed some codex info.....
Where the hell is this prophesy thingy?

[DanielleTHM]

That's Sandal's Prophecy, for everyone who has yet to see it. I haven't seen it in game yet either.

[Talladarr]

Okay, now THAT is interesting

[Faridle]

There is certainly more to Sandal then meets the eye. Also it seems like he actually fakes his dementia. Just like Flemeth Sandal got secrets but what?

Modifié par Faridle, 23 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[Oneiropolos]

http://social.biowar...4/index/6534451

Quick link there just so people can easily see what were gathered prophecies. As Jeckal supplied in that thread, there's the statue in the mage origin that was supposedly turned into a statue because she was Cassandra-like (as in, the Greek myth figure) in that her prophecies were always right. In the mage origin opening she states:
"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."
"The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..."

This seems important to me because refers to stone (where the Dwarves say they return to), the Maker returning to 'light their fires' and a prison being breached with the 'shadow will consume all'. So this isn't the first time in prophecy of Dragon Age where we've seen the concept of the return of someone (The Maker in this case) doing something significant, and also the keyword of Shadow.

There's some debate in the thread over this next part found in the Chantry's description of creation of mortals:
To you, my second-born, I grant this gift:
In your heart shall burn
An unquenchable flame
All-consuming, and never satisfied.

It's been suggested The maker placed ambition in people so they wouldn't just worship him like the spirits did and that they would actually CREATE. But it's hard to ignore that 'flame' reference.

I reached the conclusion too that I think EVERYONE originally had magic.. the ability to create (Heck, that's even a particular mage branch). But like the spirits, the use of magic went wrong. And perhaps the dwarves lost it because they were always nearer to the lyrium and they forgot it. The elves got convinced on the stories of living forever and so forth, perhaps that's why many of them also lost the gift though some are still born with it. Qunari and humans have, at least in the past and it seems particularly now, have such an abundance of mages that they FEAR them. Why those two races in particular react that way to mages, I don't know. I definitely think Sandal is a herald of magic still being in a dwarf, and he may not be the only one.

If there is magic among the dwarves even now, though, there comes the question of why there has been obvious signs, like abominations. What if Lyrium IS what was discussed earlier in this thread, something sacred to the maker. Oghren comments on Lyrium being all inside of the cave with Andraste's ashes. It could be that since the majority of dwarves are ALWAYS in the mountains, they're always surrounded by Lyrium and they can't become abominations themselves? This is not to say lyrium keeps demons back, we see the Thaig having demons and I think even abominations. But perhaps in that big of doses and being born and surrounded by it constantly, it keeps the mage's power under control to the extent they never even realize it's there? (Random musing on that last part).

Edited to add: Also, we know Demons were spirits who grew envious watching the second of the Maker's creations (Mortals). So the Spirits were first, they didn't actually create like the Maker hoped, he created mortals to create and so he could see what they created. And it's clarified in a codex (I wish I remembered which one, I think it might have been one of the books in Merrill or Fenris's houses...) that the demons WERE spirits who became corrupted into sin. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 23 mars 2011 - 12:45 .

[WhiteKnyght]

The statue mentioned the encroaching darkness because of the veil tears in the tower that you had to close.

[LelianaNeverLovedMe]

Just touching on an earlier post referencing the Trickster Dreadwolf, maybe another iteration of Flemeth? Morrigan did say she wasn't human and she was someone to hunt.

[OdinTGE]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

xNaberius wrote...

If the prophecy "One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see."

Everyone will be just like they were, dwarves never had magic so they would not need to change; they are as they were.

The only question for me is if this prophecy is true, how will the shadows part? And who rises? The simple question would be no more cruel rule over the mages, but do they live in harmony with the rest of the world or own the world? Also, who is rising, the Maker? Morrigan's God Child? Would be amusing if they fought though.

Does choosing the Maker mean the chantry? God child mean the freeing of mages? Too many questions, I'll wait for a DLC or DA:III

Not necessarily. Ancient dwarves may have been able to practice magic.

Also considering how isolated Thedas appears to be from the world. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that people in other continents can all do magic.

Theoretically, what if a portion of the world(Thedas) was closed off from the rest by magic for some reason? Like the Darkspawn, dangerous idiots who are intolerant of mages ( lol that'd be ironic. Non magical people being isolated for being a danger.), or perhaps the old gods. And what if say the Fade isn't really a spirit world but actually a realm that lies inside the viel that separates Thedas from the rest of the world. That could be what Morrigan meant by a world beyond the Fade.

The shadows will part and the skies will open wide could mean that the viel will open someday. When "he" rises could be some prophetic hero who will be the one who does it.

You've been reading some Orson Scott Card haven't you.

[Alyka]

While doing Anders's quest "Talk to Anders" in Act I, if you ask him about Justice he says that the virtues (spirits) are The Maker's first children.

Edit: So maybe both demons and spirits are The Maker's first children. Both can't create or change on their own.They're all aligned to certain aspects. Justice, Valor, Pride,Desire etc.; their "purpose" puts them on either "good" or "evil" sides.In Ander's case, the spirit of Justice fused with Anders anger and became Vengence.So a mortal can change a spirit?

Modifié par Alyka, 23 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Arppis]

Arppis approves (+1)

[Addai]

Mages appropriate the power of the Fade at will, whereas normal people can only enter in dreams and kind of stumble around. I interpret it to mean he thinks one day the division between the spirit/ mind of the world (the Fade) and its "strong arm" (the mortal world) won't be present any longer. "Men will be like the angels in heaven," to apply a biblical analogy.

[Tamahome560]

I think there might be a link between Sandal's Prophecy, Eleni Zinovia's foresight during the Mage origin and The Chant of Light. I will provide quotes:

Sandal's Prophecy
''One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see.''

Eleni Zinovia's Foresight
"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."

A passage from the Chant of Light
''Then the Maker said:To you, my second-born, I grant this gift:In your heart shall burn an unquenchable flame all-consuming, and never satisfied.'' 

I think there is connection between the parts of the quotes that I have highlighted. Starting with the passage from the Chant of Light. It says that the Maker has given his second children (Mortal races) a gift. A flame in their hearts that will never be satisfied.

Eleni was made into stone statue by Tevinter's Magic. Their Magic was strong but they always wished for more power and could never satisfy the lust for more power thus they obtained Blood Magic and then went even further and consoled with the Old Gods so that they could satisfy their lust for more Magic. Eleni said that the Maker will return to light their fires again. The fires/flame that was a gift from the maker was magic. But then the magic still exist in the world so why would he need to light something again if it is already there? Now this is where Sandal's Prophecy comes into play.

He says that magic will return to everyone like it used to be when he rises. Now the passage form the Chant of Light said that his children were given the gift of flame. Eleni says that when The Maker return he will light the fires again. From what Sandal says I conclude that all the Mortal Races once had magic (The Primeval Thaig was filled with magic when the Dwarves were never said to posses ability to harness it) but for some reason the flames in their hearts went out, possibly connected to the Golden/Black City and Fall of Arlathan. It happened to all the Dwarves thus non have it today. All the Elves had it but now only a few posses the gift. All the humans had it but they could not harness it properly so the Elves started teaching them leading to the rise of the Magisters and events that cause the flames to go out in most of the Mortals with only a few left with it.

'till the Maker returns [When he rises] ]to light their fires again. [the Magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be like they were.]


That's my theory anyway.

Modifié par Tamahome560, 23 mars 2011 - 08:28 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

darthtater10 wrote...

Just touching on an earlier post referencing the Trickster Dreadwolf, maybe another iteration of Flemeth? Morrigan did say she wasn't human and she was someone to hunt.

There is a theory that the Dreadwolf is actually the Maker, or, more aptly, that the Maker is the Dreadwolf, and after locking away all the other gods he is the only one really left. 

[PPR223]

Tamahome560 wrote...

I think there might be a link between Sandal's Prophecy, Eleni Zinovia's foresight during the Mage origin and The Chant of Light. I will provide quotes:

Sandal's Prophecy
''One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see.''

Eleni Zinovia's Foresight
"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."

A passage from the Chant of Light
''Then the Maker said:To you, my second-born, I grant this gift:In your heart shall burn an unquenchable flame all-consuming, and never satisfied.'' 

I think there is connection between the parts of the quotes that I have highlighted. Starting with the passage from the Chant of Light. It says that the Maker has given his second children (Mortal races) a gift. A flame in their hearts that will never be satisfied.

Eleni was made into stone statue by Tevinter's Magic. Their Magic was strong but they always wished for more power and could never satisfy the lust for more power thus they obtained Blood Magic and then went even further and consoled with the Old Gods so that they could satisfy their lust for more Magic. Eleni said that the Maker will return to light their fires again. The fires/flame that was a gift from the maker was magic. But then the magic still exist in the world so why would he need to light something again if it is already there? Now this is where Sandal's Prophecy comes into play.

He says that magic will return to everyone like it used to be when he rises. Now the passage form the Chant of Light said that his children were given the gift of flame. Eleni says that when The Maker return he will light the fires again. From what Sandal says I conclude that all the Mortal Races once had magic (The Primeval Thaig was filled with magic when the Dwarves were never said to posses ability to harness it) but for some reason the flames in their hearts went out, possibly connected to the Golden/Black City and Fall of Arlathan. It happened to all the Dwarves thus non have it today. All the Elves had it but now only a few posses the gift. All the humans had it but they could not harness it properly so the Elves started teaching them leading to the rise of the Magisters and events that cause the flames to go out in most of the Mortals with only a few left with it.

'till the Maker returns [When he rises] ]to light their fires again. [the Magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be like they were.]


That's my theory anyway.

I agree with you that these three quotes probably point to the main focus of what Dragon Age is about. The Tevinter statue, Sandals prophecy and the Maker's writings are all probably very important.

This "fire" seems to come up alot in these quotes, especially when referencing the Maker. It is obviously something important, which has been lost and will return. So what is the fire? Perhaps it is the magic that Sandal talks about, it will make more sense if it is.

The only problem I can find with this though, is that the second quote says "flame all-consuming, and never satisfied". It doesn't seem to fit with magic, as the "never satisfied" sounds alot like greed to me if it is in that sense. I'm sure it won't be anything bad, so I'm not sure about it with that quote.

Then again the magic might mean something completely different to what has been stated, afterall prophecies can be quite misleading in stories. So perhaps magic is just a description towards something like hope/belief/passion or something like that? Although then again I might just be over complicating the story.

Modifié par PPR223, 23 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[RyMaNF0v]

a lot like heaven and hell god and satan sort of thing right?

So demons and spirits represent the angel society, demons representing fallen angels, and all the races of thedas are humanity, or at least beings which have evolved over the millenia's into the various races. So are the old gods the dinosaurs then, the makers experiments? Andraste is obviously representing jesus, wife of the maker, son of god very simillar.

Still trying to figure out who the satan/devil would be. the original tevinter mages who created the darkspawn? Flemeth? as we have yet to find out anything more about her. Maybe she was one of the makers first creations a different old god that had his image and chose to reject his ideals teaching etc and was cast down to earth or something along those lines, I'm just spitballing here!

Modifié par RyMaNF0v, 24 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[Ingu]

Well, it is 'Dragon' age, who knows if there'll be more to that...

But with all these romours that DA3 will be set in Orlais... isn't there something in Morrigan's epilogue which talks about a dark-haired woman being seen beside the empress? And since it is also this empress who is sending for Sandal...

It will be so cool if the main character of DA3 is the God child... q.q

But they'd still need to retcon the whole thing if the Warden refused Morrigan. Who knows, maybe she was on the sidelines during the battle with the Archdemon, waiting to perform magic rituals on the warden's dead body... O.o

[BlackwindTheCommander]

Can I throw my two sense in? I had a bit of a revelation.
Ok, just follow me for a second here.

They say the Maker/Creator abandoned the people/elves until they proved themselves worthy of redemption.

If I remember correctly this supposedly happened when the mages assaulted the Golden City, creating the Darkspawn. (I believe the Andraste situation happened pre-Blight.)

The Archdemon, is supposedly the mortal vessel that houses the soul of an old god, that has been corrupted.

The Maker's/Creator's places of power was the Golden City in the Fade. The Golden City was corrupted and the first Blight began.

The Archdemon houses a corrupted god.

Morrigan's child now houses the purrified version of that god...

Morrigan's child is the pure version of the Archdemon's mortal form...

This new Mortal form is the return of the Maker.

To sum up my belief, Godchild=Maker/Creator=Archdemon

"The Shadows will part..." Defeat of the Achdemon.

"When he rises, everyone shall see..." The return of the Maker in human/elf/dwarf form from the Eluvian.

Please tell me I'm not making connections where there are none.

[Naitaka]

Reposting my completely bat crazy speculation from the other thread:

Want to hear my completely insane baseless speculation theory? Of course you do.

[Speculation]
Assuming there's a grain of truth to the Elven Pantheon and that the Creators and the Maker are really different interpretation of the same divine force that created the world. Then the "Old Gods" that the Tevinter worshipped would have been the Forgotten Ones in the Elven Mythos. This then would explain the conflict between the Tevinter human and the elves of Elvhenan when evidence seem to have suggested that they lived together and in peace before the fall of the Elvhenan. We also know that Fen'Harel trapped the Creators in the heaven (The Golden city in the Fade), and the Forgotten Ones in the abyss (The archdemons are sealed within the bowel of the earth) then it would make sense for the Tevinter magister to attempt to attack the Golden city and destroy the enemies of their gods which obviously didn't turn out quite like they thought it would. I believe that the Tevinter Magisters corrupted the Maker/Creators turned the Golden City into the Black City just as the Darkspawn tainted the Old Gods.

Then who is Fen'Harel, the one that both sides saw as one of their kind and could freely walk among all? Well who do we know can turn into whatever form she choose including a Dragon that resembles one of the Archdemon? Yah you know who I'm talking about.

This then lead to Sandals prophecy

"One day the magic will come back. all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see"

Which I basically interprete as that both the rest of the Old God and the Maker/Creators will be freed. The line between the Fade and our world would blur. As for who "he" is, I don't know, I' assuming it's the OGB? Since both the Old Gods and The Maker/Creators have been corrupted, they would make world across the Fade/Thedas and destroys everything in their path. DA3 would involving saving the world from the wraith of the gods.
[/speculation]

Modifié par Naitaka, 24 mars 2011 - 07:07 .