They aren't the same person. Kelder has a compunction to murder and a refusal to accept that he is responsible, and Anders wants to save his people from Chantry domination and is willing to cross the line to see them free, Bmeszaros. He wants to free his people. What he ultimately does to the Chantry was to force a confrontation he believes will lead to showing the world that the Circle has failed the mages. "A quick death now, or a death later," is what he sees for the mages of the Circles, and he's willing to die so the innocent people who were killed can have justice. Whether he's right or wrong is ultimately for Hawke to decide.
Who at Bioware decided to butcher Anders into a sociopath?
Débuté par
maegi46
, mars 22 2011 04:29
Retour en haut
#252
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 03:22
Bmeszaros
-
- Members
- 92 messages
He's wrong. It wasn't a justice for the mages, it was there death knell.... But maybe that was just by my thinking.... 
#253
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 03:34
LobselVith8
-
- Members
- 16 990 messages
I disagree that it'll mean their death, but I suppose it's all an issue of speculation at the moment. I hope to see the new protagonist of DA3 having the choice to support the mage revolution and their sovereignty from the Chantry and its templars.
#254
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 03:36
Plaintiff
-
- Members
- 6 998 messages
I liked Anders before, but I like his character now just fine. Just because he only talked about women before doesn't mean he can't be interested in men. In fact, what he says is that he believe you 'fall in love with a whole person, not just a body'. So it's perfectly plausible that he could jsut opt not to mention it in Awakening because he's not interested in the Warden, gender regardless.
As for being psychotic... I don't think so. A psychopath is an individual "characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with abnormally immoral conduct despite an ability to appear normal". Anders doesn't tick any of these boxes. He feels very strongly for the mages who suffer under Meredith, and the majortiy of his actions can only be considered "immoral" if you really believe all mages deserve to be treated the way they are.
As for blowing up the Chantry, I think he was right, and that it was necessary. Elthina presents herself and the Chantry as "neutral", but that's not really true. The Templars are part of the Chantry, they're controlled by it, and pretty much every second word they preach supports the subjugation of mages. Elthina had the power to get rid of Meredith and appoint a saner templar in her place (there were several to choose from). But she didn't, and through her inaction she implicitly condones Meredith's actions. Sure, she steps in when there's a risk of things getting violent, but that only happens because she allows Meredith to go unchallenged.
The Chantry is the root of the problem, it's a cancer on Thedas. The templars are just the most visible symptom.
As for being psychotic... I don't think so. A psychopath is an individual "characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with abnormally immoral conduct despite an ability to appear normal". Anders doesn't tick any of these boxes. He feels very strongly for the mages who suffer under Meredith, and the majortiy of his actions can only be considered "immoral" if you really believe all mages deserve to be treated the way they are.
As for blowing up the Chantry, I think he was right, and that it was necessary. Elthina presents herself and the Chantry as "neutral", but that's not really true. The Templars are part of the Chantry, they're controlled by it, and pretty much every second word they preach supports the subjugation of mages. Elthina had the power to get rid of Meredith and appoint a saner templar in her place (there were several to choose from). But she didn't, and through her inaction she implicitly condones Meredith's actions. Sure, she steps in when there's a risk of things getting violent, but that only happens because she allows Meredith to go unchallenged.
The Chantry is the root of the problem, it's a cancer on Thedas. The templars are just the most visible symptom.
#255
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 08:19
Bmeszaros
-
- Members
- 92 messages
If Elthina is guilty of anything, its that she "allowed" Meredith to tighten her grip, unchecked. Elthina is likeable, but terribly flawed: Had she stepped foot outside the chantry more, she'd be more inclined to see the situations with the Qunari and Mages and Templars for herself.
For those that say its a cancer, The Andrastian Chantry did put an end to Tevinter's largest Empire, its namesake united men under one banner to fight Tevinter and it led Exhaulted March against the Qunari, allying with Tevinter in the process.
The chantry needs an overhaul on its leadership and some of its practices... not outright destruction.
For those that say its a cancer, The Andrastian Chantry did put an end to Tevinter's largest Empire, its namesake united men under one banner to fight Tevinter and it led Exhaulted March against the Qunari, allying with Tevinter in the process.
The chantry needs an overhaul on its leadership and some of its practices... not outright destruction.
Modifié par Bmeszaros, 03 avril 2011 - 08:23 .
#256
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 09:39
maegi46
-
- Members
- 273 messages
The only way you can say what Anders did was right or necessary is if you can prove there was no other way to start a war. You can't prove that. I can think of several alternate scenarios that would have been more fun to play out and could have achieved the same goal.
For instance Elthina could have been kidnapped by Anders or Hawke and company and forced to have a real discussion about the mages plight. Make her see what mages in the Gallows are enduring , how many tranquils are being made that passed their Harrowing etc.
Alternatively, perhaps an organized "freeing of imprisoned mages" from the gallows quest where you free them all and anarchy breaks loose in the streets, also forcing a war and choosing sides. Assassination coups have occured throughout real history to cause change and reforms. Assassinating Elthina and Meredith would have gotten some attention I'm sure..
Anders wants to be a revolutionary leader, why doesn't he recruit all apostates and form a formidable mage anarchist army to stand against the templars? What I am alluding to is there were other ways the same goal could have been achieved without resorting to a 9/11 act of terrorism copycat hate crime in DA2. Saying Anders is right or wrong is just an opinion, but if you have an opinion, use facts to back up why it's the right opinion please.
For instance Elthina could have been kidnapped by Anders or Hawke and company and forced to have a real discussion about the mages plight. Make her see what mages in the Gallows are enduring , how many tranquils are being made that passed their Harrowing etc.
Alternatively, perhaps an organized "freeing of imprisoned mages" from the gallows quest where you free them all and anarchy breaks loose in the streets, also forcing a war and choosing sides. Assassination coups have occured throughout real history to cause change and reforms. Assassinating Elthina and Meredith would have gotten some attention I'm sure..
Anders wants to be a revolutionary leader, why doesn't he recruit all apostates and form a formidable mage anarchist army to stand against the templars? What I am alluding to is there were other ways the same goal could have been achieved without resorting to a 9/11 act of terrorism copycat hate crime in DA2. Saying Anders is right or wrong is just an opinion, but if you have an opinion, use facts to back up why it's the right opinion please.
#257
Posté 03 avril 2011 - 10:03
stobie
-
- Members
- 328 messages
I didn't get that Anders wants to be a revolutionary leader *at all.* He seems to expect you to kill him, no matter how close you were. He is making sure that the neutral-but-not-really position can't go on. People have to take sides and the status quo is over. As for it being a terrorist act - I'm not sure he killed more people than I did with a single fireball. That just seems a way to stir up emotions with a real world event.
#258
Guest_Allacia_*
Posté 05 avril 2011 - 10:43
Guest_Allacia_*
Guest_Allacia_*
-
- Guests
Carmen_Willow wrote...
BTW, I think Anders was brilliantly written in this game. The very fact that I am so angry at him means that I was really able to connect with the character. Well done.
I think this is an excellent point. On my first playthrough I tried to do everything I could to help anyone in trouble and be a good citizen of Kirkwall. I had friend-romanced Anders and really felt for the mages plight, but when Anders blew up the chantry I was honesty SO ANGRY with him. I had spent the entire game trying to keep the peace and not only does he destroy any chance of peace, but he also betrays me by making me an unwitting aid in the act he committed.
I did feel so betrayed by Anders, I was that invested in the game and the character. I really wanted to kill him, but I also knew he wanted to become a martyr, and in a fit of rage I concluded that I would deny him that by keeping him alive. Death seemed a cowardly way out to me. He can damn well stay alive and witness the deaths he caused, and know their blood is on his hands!
I think what angered me most about Anders was the fact that he keeps criticising the circle as a solution, but never offers much by way of an alternative. It just made me think he didn't really think his position through. Not sure if that would could as a criticism or good character development, however!
I have never been so honestly mad at a computer game character, ever! Anders as a companion did get a reaction out of me, and with other players too judging by the comments made on here. Whether you loved him or hated him, evoking a reaction from a player was the end purpose.
#259
Posté 05 avril 2011 - 11:06
Deified Data
-
- Members
- 269 messages
OP, I sympathize with you. Awakening Anders was a likeable sort, someone you'd always be glad to have at your side. His attitude in DAII, while justified, is grating on more than one occasion.
That being said, people change. Anders changed when he allowed a demon to possess him. I may disagree with his methods, and I may strongly dislike him as a character, but there can be no denying that he lent a great deal towards the overall feel of the game. Of all the characters, most of whom I loved, Anders is the one I still think about the most - what he did, why he did it, and how it'll effect the future. He may be annoying, but he indesputably the most important character in the game's storyline.
That being said, people change. Anders changed when he allowed a demon to possess him. I may disagree with his methods, and I may strongly dislike him as a character, but there can be no denying that he lent a great deal towards the overall feel of the game. Of all the characters, most of whom I loved, Anders is the one I still think about the most - what he did, why he did it, and how it'll effect the future. He may be annoying, but he indesputably the most important character in the game's storyline.
#260
Posté 05 avril 2011 - 11:13
Alamar2078
-
- Members
- 2 618 messages
I felt very sorry for Anders and what he became. IMHO though the Anders we knew from Awakening "ceased to exist" once he merged with Justice / Vengance. Even then glimpses of his former self were there and I felt very sorry for him.
As to why they did it .. because it made for a good story and I can suspend disbelief just enough that Anders could merge with a friend hoping that a greater good would come of it and things would then spiral out of control.
As to why they did it .. because it made for a good story and I can suspend disbelief just enough that Anders could merge with a friend hoping that a greater good would come of it and things would then spiral out of control.
#261
Posté 06 avril 2011 - 12:27
Jedi Master of Orion
-
- Members
- 6 910 messages
The betrayal of Anders might have been a very effective scene because it certainly provoked an emotional reaction from me. But frankly I definitely did think that his character had been completely derailed by that point. The first sign was the voice actor, but it wasn't just that. His personality, goals and sexual orientation had are also different. He might as well have been a completely different character. Saying he is bisexual and just never happened to demonstrate even slightly any hint of attraction to men in Awakening is simply a weak excuse to me. But it's not just that, his romance period is kind of weird. When i made a second character that didn't shoot him down immediately and sent him into a sulk, he instantly goes on a rant about what we could have had. I thought "Woah, calm down dude. This is the second time I've visited you in my life."
What's worse though is that even his opinion of mages is totally different than before. If he spoke to Wynne in Amaranthine he is just as concerned as Wynne is about The Circle breaking away from the Chantry. I know people change especially after merging with Justice but deliberately created the very situation he thought would have been a disaster. And worse, his actions are things that neither Anders nor Justice would have believed in form Awakening, Justice seemed to enjoy the concept of order and hence he murdered several innocents to sent the entire world into chaos. So turning Anders from a fun loving wisecracking sidekick into a self righteous murderous terrorist strikes me as poor way to develop the character, even if it did set up an emotional climax.
What's worse though is that even his opinion of mages is totally different than before. If he spoke to Wynne in Amaranthine he is just as concerned as Wynne is about The Circle breaking away from the Chantry. I know people change especially after merging with Justice but deliberately created the very situation he thought would have been a disaster. And worse, his actions are things that neither Anders nor Justice would have believed in form Awakening, Justice seemed to enjoy the concept of order and hence he murdered several innocents to sent the entire world into chaos. So turning Anders from a fun loving wisecracking sidekick into a self righteous murderous terrorist strikes me as poor way to develop the character, even if it did set up an emotional climax.
Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 06 avril 2011 - 12:28 .
