260 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

Jackel159357 wrote...

Anders was fine in DA2, right up until the point he tried to hit on me when i was male hawke. Anders was very straight in DAOA but then somehow became a very in your face bisexual. Killed the character for me.

...Hitting on you once is "very in your face"? Really?

[frustratemyself]

Of course Anders is different in DA2 than he was in Awakenings, a lot has happened in between.

Merging with Justice caused a change in both of them. They're not 2 seperate personalities anymore, they have merged and become something else all together. When that happened strengths, weaknesses and opinions from both personalities were apparently magnified in unexpected ways.

Also some of the things Anders saw as a Grey Warden would have had an effect. Look at how cold the Wardens are that you meet. Get the job done at any cost. For a compassionate (if a bit selfish) person like Anders was in Awakenings to be faced with that on a daily basis would be difficult. Even the most optimistic person can change if beaten down enough.

And everyone has their breaking point. You either implode or explode. Anders exploded.

[Taleroth]

maegi46 wrote...

However,the Grand cleric was a neutral player and was looking for a peaceful solution where there probably wasn't going to be one.

She was a neutral player in a seperate problem.  She supported the oppression of Mages.  She did not support Meredith's means.  Do not confuse the two.  This was inspired by Meredith, but not about Meredith.

Blowing up the entire chantry and killing a lot of innocent people was not the way to win favor for the mages cause.

That's cool, because it wasn't his intent.  There is literally nothing he could do to win favor for the mages' cause.  Nothing.  Nada.  Zip.

But what he did do was force the mages to fight or die.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[VenetianLunacy]

My two cents. We know how quickly mages can change when they become abominations. The changes can occur in seconds! Although Justice is a spirit and not a demon, it seems unlikely that Anders would not undergo some kind of change when fused with him. Justice gave Anders the bravery and the drive to do what he has always wanted. So... I wouldn't say that he is /that/ different. He may joke less, yes... but maybe that is because he is constantly surrounded by atrocity and injustice. Also, if you play DA2, you see how his character /does/ change throughout. He becomes more and more bent on his goal.

[Casuist]

EDarkness wrote...

Anders was definitely straight in the first game. He even mentions settling down with a good woman and he flirted with other women all the time. He never once flirted with the male Warden that I remember. Though he was flirting with other women, including the templar who was tracking him down.

In Awakening, Anders never truly ends up in a sexual relationship with anyone, and yet people don't find the heterosexual relationships he enters into as being particularly out of character.  Moreover- an awakening reference that would actually be relevant to the discussion would be any indication that Anders is not and could not be attracted to males (for which there is no evidence).

Even if there were, would a character status change that influences nothing other than whom the character finds physically attractive be worth much consternation?

[Phoenix Phire 13]

I was also very disappointed in how Anders turned out. I would always have him in my party in Awakening; he was a hilarious guy whom I enjoyed adventuring with. He was probably the funniest character, IMHO, in DA:O.

Anders in DA2 was disappointingly dull, and the few jokes he made almost made me cringe. I never thought I would have done it to the DA:A Anders, but I actually ended up killing him in the end.

Almost all of the other characters in DA2 make up for him though.

[EDarkness]

Casuist wrote...

EDarkness wrote...

Anders was definitely straight in the first game. He even mentions settling down with a good woman and he flirted with other women all the time. He never once flirted with the male Warden that I remember. Though he was flirting with other women, including the templar who was tracking him down.

In Awakening, Anders never truly ends up in a sexual relationship with anyone, and yet people don't find the heterosexual relationships he enters into as being particularly out of character.  Moreover- an awakening reference that would actually be relevant to the discussion would be any indication that Anders is not and could not be attracted to males (for which there is no evidence).

Even if there were, would a character status change that influences nothing other than whom the character finds physically attractive be worth much consternation?

I guess, for me, he was constantly going on about women.  There is no reason to believe that he was anything other than straight.  Unlike Zevran who is obviously bi-sexual.

[Icinix]

EDarkness wrote...
I guess, for me, he was constantly going on about women.  There is no reason to believe that he was anything other than straight.  Unlike Zevran who is obviously bi-sexual.

Zevran isn't bi-sexual..

Zevran is everything-sexual.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

[Icinix]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

This. Particularly because at the end of one playthrough...his epilogue was he left the wardens..came back...gave a speech to the circle...left wardens came back...(it sounds like YEARS, not singular) before eventually finding the Wardens would always be his home...instead...a year after the blight began he's in Kirkwall...that was the disconnet that irked me more than the change.

I guess Laidlaw was right, maybe it would have been better if DA2 was disconnected from DAO...Maybe would be better with different characters, different everything. In trying to bridge the two games, they may have drastically undermined the consquences of our choices through the games. If choices don't have weight, then what the hell is the point of making them?

*eats cookie and drinks vanilla cappucino in deep thought*

[Solid N7]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

^^^ This

Its the first time that I agree with you hahahaha

[maegi46]

Taleroth wrote...

I don't think you understand the meanings of either the words psychotic or sociopath. He displays empathy quite well. And he is very very concerned with the rights of others.

psychopath
(someone with a sociopathic personality; a person with an antisocial
personality disorder (`psychopath' was once widely used but has now been
superseded by `sociopath'))

Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack
of empathy combined with abnormally immoral conduct despite an ability
to appear normal. ...

sociopathic - Having the characteristics of a sociopath; Unconcerned about the adverse consequences for others of one's actions

I understand both words clearly and they fit what Anders did to the chantry to a tee.

[KendallX23]

so...will he appear in DA3 too..?maybe another spirit posseses him since i killed him and always will no matter the playthrough in DA2...Anders acts like a martyr when he is nothing short of a murderer...the representative of magic would be Orsino(before going nuts) or even Bethany...but i uess Bioware nedeed someone to start the war...

[Casuist]

I guess, for me, he was constantly going on about women. There is no reason to believe that he was anything other than straight.

...and by "constantly" you mean one conversation with the Warden, one with Oghren which the dwarf initiates and two clips with Velanna... amounting to what- 1% of his spoken lines? Once again, there is no reason to believe, at any point, in Awakening that Anders is not/could not be attracted to men.

Unlike Zevran who is obviously bi-sexual.

Zevran would flirt with a nug. If that's your standard for establishing orientation you don't have a very realistic view of bisexuality.

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

Fair enough. I can't really argue with that-- nor could any creator when someone feels they had something different in mind for a character and doesn't like where you've taken them. I certainly can't argue with someone's feelings of attachment. He wasn't really present in the game in terms of a cameo (ie. there mainly to bank on previous feelings someone had), but if someone feels negative about it so be it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 22 mars 2011 - 05:46 .

[Casuist]

maegi46 wrote...
I understand both words clearly and they fit what Anders did to the chantry to a tee.

So, do you get that from his admission of guilt or his clear willingness and expectation to be killed for his action?

[Noatz]

David Gaider wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
Plus, unless I'm mistaken you couldn't romance him or anyone in Awakening. He may have said he likes women in Awakening, but that doesn't mean he isn't bisexual. Or maybe Justice made him bisexual.

As stated, nobody could romance him in Awakening. He expressed an interest in women, yes, but as far as I know that doesn't preclude someone being bisexual-- though in neither game does he express a preference. Whatever someone chooses to perceive him as is up to them.

As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

If someone doesn't like the direction we take a character, however-- oh well. Wouldn't be the first time.

My question would be - what made you decide to keep Anders for use as the role of catalyst instead of writing a whole new character if you were going to largely re-write his personality and change his VA anyway?

Did you feel that writing someone more generically fanatical who wasn't necessarily "possessed" would have been harder to relate with, or did you want to explore the idea of a "non-demonic abomination"? Justice/Vengeance in Anders is obviously still dangerous but in someone less angry, or if it were a different kind of positive fade spirit... who knows how it would turn out

As a side note, there were flashes of Anders' old personality in there which for me provided the only reasons to feel for him, I just wished you got to see more of them because then the decision after the Chantry would have been a lot more of an emotional tug of war (ironically it's justice that demands he dies here). This isn't a nostalgic "old Anders rox new one sux" sentiment, but his jokes and silly sense of humour were what made him endearing. I'd have laughed if he had kept ser Pounce-a-lot and it was guarding his clinic for him .

Modifié par Noatz, 22 mars 2011 - 05:59 .

[Foolsfolly]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

That's actually a pretty interesting point. Had the game started with old Anders and he fell into his revolutionary ways then we'd track a drastic change.

As is...I don't know. I still find it hard to think of Anders as a revolutionary. There's a Hawke line around the mansion about finding Anders' manifestos and I still feels forced to me. We here him **** about the Circle and the Chantry but he never has a plan for how mages can exist outside the Circle. He never goes on about how the mages will police themselves.

He's just a malcontent not a revolutionary. Something that the Chantry explosion underlines since it most certainly did not help the plight of his fellow mages.

He's not even Vengence. Vengence is an emotional reaction to an injustice or injury. The guy was a Grey Warden, he was above the law and the Chantry. And King Alistair would always have his back anyway. Justice merging with Anders turned more into a Spirit of Rage than Vengence.

[Dracotamer]

I agree with both points of view. I think his change makes sense for what he's been through and want he is trying to accomplish, however, there could of been more hinting and leading up to his change. I honestly thought he was just a little bitter and did not see this coming at all. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

[Alexein]

We still get the option to murder knife him. So while he's very different than what we remembered, we still get to drive our disappointment home.... all 8 inches of it through his heart

I for one take a certain sadistic joy giving him his comeuppance.

We can complain all we want about anders but if it really bothered me that much i'd write a little fanfic and have everything perfect in my own little world.

Bioware's world is what it is, we've made our disappointment known, they may change how they approach future stories. Ultimately we decide for ourselves if we keep forking out the cash to play in their world.

I approach TV shows and novels in much the same way.

If the DLCs hold my interest, i'll overlook anders and keep enjoying a fresh fantasy franchise, if not, i'll move on.

Modifié par Alexein, 22 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[Casuist]

it occurs to me that reading the little vignette about Anders merging with Justice and the incident that brought about his departure from the Wardens is more necessary than it should be. It explains a great deal out-of-game but in-universe.

for anyone who missed it: http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

[Talladarr]

If anyone is still looking for the "Why did Anders blow up the chantry" answer, it's very simple. Look at this vid, it was produced on the last page. Go to 8:08, you'll notice that Justice starts talking about something very similar to what Anders eventually did. Also keep in mind, the CHANTRY are the oppressors of the mages, they just use the Templars to do it.

[LobselVith8]

maegi46 wrote...

He was a great character in Awakenings. Funny, spirited. Loved WOMEN.

Why would an interest in men prevent him from being a great character?

maegi46 wrote...

Not crazy or any terrorist tendencies. He wanted freedom yes and he got that by joining the Grey Wardens. At least in my game he did. He was a trusted friend and someone you could depend on with your life. He was not joined with Justice. Justice possessed a dead grey warden...

Considering how Karl was made tranquil, we dealt with templars raping mages and torturing people, we had characters who saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery (like Anders), and I can see why he would want to abolish the system and see his people emancipated.

maegi46 wrote...

Then in DA2 his voice is changed, the writer is changed and his character is a direct 180 from what he used to be. Now he's pyschotic , possessed and gay. A terrorist incident waiting to happen. Not amused and not happy with the changes at all. Thoughts?

I saw him as an abolitionist who wanted to see a thousand years of slavery brought to an end. It doesn't help that Knight-Commander Meredith wants to commit genocide against all mages for an action caused by the man who is standing right in front of her.

[Foolsfolly]

Alexein wrote...

We still get the option to murder knife him. So while he's very different than what we remembered, we still get to drive our disappointment home.... all 8 inches of it through his heart

I for one take a certain sadistic joy giving him his comeuppance.

We can complain all we want about anders but if it really bothered me that much i'd write a little fanfic and have everything perfect in my own little world.

Bioware's world is what it is, we've made our disappointment known, they may change how they approach future stories. Ultimately we decide for ourselves if we keep forking out the cash to play in their world.

I approach TV shows and novels in much the same way.

If the DLCs hold my interest, i'll overlook anders and keep enjoying a fresh fantasy franchise, if not, i'll move on.

Oh, I respect the choice. It was like having a well-intended villain on your companion roaster. That's a fun idea. I just don't like the character. He's not tragic to me, he's not reasonable. He's just another mad mage in a game that's already met that quota.

But I think not liking him was the point. I mean who agrees with his actions. Really? Killing how many innocents, inciting a preventable war, and killing the last sane person in all of Kirkwall? That's monsterous and does everything but promote mage freedoms.

I can see players disliking this choice entirely because it was Anders from Awakening instead of some new character.

[DeathStride]

Casuist wrote...

it occurs to me that reading the little vignette about Anders merging with Justice and the incident that brought about his departure from the Wardens is more necessary than it should be. It explains a great deal out-of-game but in-universe.

for anyone who missed it: http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

 more content?? Never knew! Sweet. 

Modifié par DeathStride, 22 mars 2011 - 06:11 .