260 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrium]

I also say Anders as straight. If you play female, his dialogue changes and he's straight. So I play a female and bam, no continuty changes that can't be explained by Justice. All good.

The personality change was well done. I loved the old Anders, but I can see this change happening. At his core, he wants to help, and helping Justice is what produced this. I don't have a problem with the shift, it makes sense. That said, I really hope some future DLC will let us remove Justice from Anders if we let him live. There is still a fair bit of the old Anders in there, especially during the romance. Even at the very end.

Modifié par Tyrium, 22 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[GranitemonkeyX]

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

[Eterna]

maegi46 wrote...



 and gay. 

 Are you implying that being Gay is a negative quality to have?

[KnightofPhoenix]

There might have been some disconnect between Anders from Awakening and the Anders in DA2, if Anders is taken in isolation (a view I think is flawed). But I think a link is present in the form of Justice, who is crucial in the new Anders (and he thinks he IS Anders. He might even be). We see him evolving in Awakening, characterized by self-doubt (+ anger that stems out of confusion when questioned by Anders if he can become a demon). We see him becoming a pseudo-demon and we hear him telling Anders to fight back.

So that's why I do not mind the change, as I do not feel it's baseless and too disconnected. Now what I do mind is that we do not see / interact with Justice enough, but that's another topic.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[LobselVith8]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

[Kartikeya]

I don't know. I replayed all of Origins and Awakening last week before starting DA2. I had, at that point, read the character blurb on Anders on the DA2 site, that he'd merged with Justice and that it had not turned out quite so well.

Bring Anders and Justice along in your party next time you play Awakening, and let them chat for a while. It's rather eye opening. Going straight from Awakening and the DLCs to DA2 did not feel like Anders was a new character with the same name. It felt like an older, more world weary Anders who has a very single minded, single focused spirit possessing him, and it's made very clear throughout the game that they're both poisoning each other. Heart breaking? Definitely. Heinous actions? Most assuredly. But consider that this is seven years of dealing with the situation in Kirkwall, and it's a situation that is only getting worse, and worse, and worse. Remember when he asks you to go talk to the Grand Cleric about mages? About giving her 'one more chance'? And her solution, as always, is to trust in the Maker to work things out.

A sociopath does not feel empathy for anyone. They don't feel guilty. They don't hang around and willingly become martyrs. A sociopath wouldn't give two nickels about the plight of mages beyond their own personal well-being, though they may, if they thought it would profit them, convince others that they care (sociopaths can be great fakers). People, perfectly ordinary people, and especially people that have gone through what Anders has, both with Justice and the Templars, are entirely capable of doing absolutely monstrous things if they are desperate enough.

[Foolsfolly]

Casuist wrote...

it occurs to me that reading the little vignette about Anders merging with Justice and the incident that brought about his departure from the Wardens is more necessary than it should be. It explains a great deal out-of-game but in-universe.

for anyone who missed it: http://social.biowar...46067/1#6046116

That was more necessary than it should be. We totally should have seen the transformation instead of being told he merged with Justice.

[CappuccinoPenguin]

I completely agree with Kartikeya. Anders is in no way a sociopath, but a desperate man pushed by many factions (The Templars, Meredith, Justice/Vengeance) to do something extreme. We have to remember that even in Awakening he spoke of being locked in solitary confinement for months. He was already changing before merging with Justice. Also, becoming a Grey Warden certainly had to have added even more pressure and desire for freedom since his life was shortened.
Even though we do not see the transformation I was pleasantly surprised by his change in character. In Awakening he was really just out for himself, but by giving him a cause and serious conflict, the DA2 team made Anders so much more complex.
You never know, future DLC might tell the Anders Justice story between Awakening and DA2. They did tell us Leliana's background.

[GranitemonkeyX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

[Iosev]

I played Awakening, and strangely, while I do agree that his change of personality is rather drastic, I think the fact that he's merged with Justice somewhat explains that.

I think of it like this: Anders in Awakening, while appearing very carefree, has a deep-rooted and growing hatred for the injustices committed against magi. Perhaps a big reason why he jokes around a lot in Awakening is because he's subconsciously trying to hide that growing animosity.

When Anders merges with the spirit of Justice, the original Anders, as well as the original Justice, both cease to exist. Instead, it's this new being: a mixture of a more purposeful Anders that is actively seeking justice for magi instead of hiding behind jokes, and an impure spirit of Justice, who has been corrupted by Ander's hatred.

[AngelicMachinery]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

He wanted to be a Martyr, he even told you so before you stab him.

[EDarkness]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

He wanted to be a Martyr, he even told you so before you stab him.

This is why I'm not gonna kill him the next time I play through the game.  I don't want to make a martyr out of him.  He didn't do anything good for anyone and shouldn't have a good name in the end.

[Foolsfolly]

All this talk about Awakening made me to the fourth best thing from starting up an Awakening game. I looked up the dialogue between Anders and Justice on the Dragon Age wiki!

Here it is if you're interested.

One of the conversations stood out to me.

* Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
* Justice: I said no such thing.
* Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
* Justice: I have no such desires.
* Anders: You must have some desires...
* Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

Does this mean that Justice is a demon now that he's "Vengeance?" If a Spirit has no desires then Justice definitely has a desire to see the Circle destroyed now. And if he has transformed into a demon doesn't this mean all we'd have to do to separate them is enter the Fade and kill Vengence, ala Conor from DA:O?

[Avilia]

I haven't played Awakenings for a while, but Anders' speech patterns more closely resemble Justice's than his own. Careful diction and less use of contractions.

Just something I noticed which made me realise what he tells is you right - he's not really Anders any more and Justice isn't Justice any more - they're one person.

*cough* hopefully not too far OT.

[GranitemonkeyX]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

He wanted to be a Martyr, he even told you so before you stab him.

So he cares about mages only insofar as he doesn't actually help them fight for freedom? All game long he preaches freedom for mages then leaves them hanging? I am sure the mages all appreciate it.

[AngelicMachinery]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

So he cares about mages only insofar as he doesn't actually help them fight for freedom? All game long he preaches freedom for mages then leaves them hanging? I am sure the mages all appreciate it.

 His death would be a rallying point for all mages, etc, etc, etc.  I'm not saying it's a sensible choice, but, that was  his reasoning.

[HTTP 404]

Can we just have all the "whats wrong with Anders" type threads lumped into one?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Avilia wrote...
Just something I noticed which made me realise what he tells is you right - he's not really Anders any more and Justice isn't Justice any more - they're one person.

*cough* hopefully not too far OT.

I think it's still ambiguous whether Anders and Justice are still seperate, or if they are one, or if they evolve into becoming one. I think it's the latter, but I am still not sue if it was a symmetircal merging or one personality assimilating the other.

In midgame, we see Justice referring to himself as Anders, while Anders refers to Justice as "he" and when he almost killed the mage girl, he was quite terrified as if he had no control. By the end however, he essentially says they are one and the same IIRC, but still says that if he dies, Justice could be free. And unlike before, he seems to be very determined in his course. The codex after Act 2 says he is losing mroe and more cotnrol, which leads me to believe that the two personalities merged, but that Justice was the dominant personality. Usually, when Justice showed up before Act 3, it was like an interruption and what he said (and did) was usually disconnected from Anders. When Anders is beratting Orsino at the end however, Justice appears seamlessly and was saying what Anders was saying. This unprecendented level of coordination leads me to believe that Justice was the dominant personality. 

EDIT: our understanding of Anders is made ambigiuous because we do not really understand the nature of abominations, and if Anders qualifies as an abomination even.
If he is, I think Uldred summed it up nicely: "Uldred is gone. I am Uldred and yet not Uldred".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[dreman9999]

This what everyone problem with Anders is.......He got serious now. Anders still jokes just like in DAO:A but in steadof caring for himself and ignoring the circle, he's deturmined to cahnge the world and end the circle and free mages. He was so deturmined that he had a spirit murge with his soul changing him for ever. And the fact that the will of the spirit comflicted with the will of his in so many way the he did not expect. An dit hurt me to see it happen to me because I like Anders. what he did brought him to the brink and tortured him for 7 years.
The act that he blow up the chantchry added more to his character. He beleived so much that his ideals where right that he was will to do the wrong thing to bring up a point and was will to take any punishment for doing it. And I hated him for doing it because he disapponted me so much......The fact he struck this kind of cord with me just show how well thought out and deep a character he is,or was in my play through.

[dreman9999]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

Why? Because he know what he did waswrong and is willing tof acethe consiquences. It justice, and eye for eye.

[DrZagreus]

maegi46 wrote...

He was a great character in Awakenings. Funny, spirited. Loved WOMEN. Not crazy or any terrorist tendencies. He wanted freedom yes and he got that by joining the Grey Wardens. At least in my game he did.

Well in my game Justice was beheaded and so it's feasible to think that Anders took Justice into him and why did you feel the need to emphasize WOMEN for?

Foolsfolly wrote...

Oh, I respect the choice. It was like having a well-intended villain on your companion roaster. That's a fun idea. I just don't like the character. He's not tragic to me

I don't consider Ander's a villain. I mean he has led a life where he basically was imprisoned in the circle for being born a mage. He tried to flee the tower and could only get some freedom by signing on to a forty year death sentence and even, then the Templar's didn't leave him alone. He then takes the spirit Justice into him and all his rage and resentment for the Chantry changes Justice into vengeance and Ander's into a desperate guilt-ridden man. Don't forget Templars were rounding up mages and making them tranquil for no reason other than they're mages. He feared for himself and his fellow mages. And as we all know fear can make us do stupid things.

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

The Chantry sat back and did nothing when the Knight Commander was abusing her position and destroying the minds of innocent mages. Meredith was insane and even though the mages begged the chantry to resolve this issue they sat back and did nothing.  The Chantry blames the mages for every bad thing that happens in Thedas and probably would like nothing more, then to see the mage blight put to death.

Anders had to die because Sebastian threatened to destroy Kirkwall with his armies if he wasn't killed for what he did and let's not forget a martyr is more valuable than a living person it gives people reason's to fight on.

I loved what they did with Anders in Dragon Age 2 no longer was he Alistair 2.0 he had his own character and became a great character.

Modifié par DrZagreus, 22 mars 2011 - 07:46 .

[NedPepper]

Couple things: Anders was bi in Awakenings. It's all in the context. (I thought it was obvious, but that's me...)

I just finished the game and I spared Anders. From the very beginning, you knew that having Justice in him was effecting him. It was like he was slowly going mad through each act. Did I miss the Anders from Awakenings? Sure.

But I like that they went forward with him. And for it to have the effect it did, you had to have a mage who you felt like you knew and liked and the only other choices were Morrigan and Wynne. Neither would have worked as a kind of leader of the mage rebellion, so I see why David Gaider chose to go that route.

Some are saying he's beyond redemption...please. I'd love to see a DLC that follows Anders quest to get Justice out of his system for good. (Although, I'm guessing most people killed him. I just couldn't do it. Someone had to throw the first stone....

Dark moral gray area. This is why Bioware's stories are great.

[NedPepper]

Anders = Magneto from the X-Men. Sorta. That's my succint answer.

[KnightofPhoenix]

nedpepper wrote...

Anders = Magneto from the X-Men. Sorta. That's my succint answer.

I have a problem with that.

Magneto is a leader of an organization that operates worldwide. Plus he represents a large group of mutants (at some point, I think he attracted majority mutant opinion). Furthermore, he has some sort of plan in mind and demonstrated that he is a competent leader when he established the nation of Genosha. In other words, Magneto, despite arrogant tantrums every once in a while, has some political competence and can actually claim to represent a large number of mutants. 

Anders has neither. He has no plan in mind and no credibility. I doubt any mage has even heard of him. He is not a leader, has no political / practical qualifications and he represents no one but himself. And he is very probably an abomination who can't control himself. On what basis does he think he is qualified to make a choice like that to all mages? 

Magneto might exagerrates when he thinks he can speak for all mutants, but at least he has some basis for doing it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[GranitemonkeyX]

DrZagreus wrote...

The Chantry sat back and did nothing when the Knight Commander was abusing her position and destroying the minds of innocent mages. Meredith was insane and even though the mages begged the chantry to resolve this issue they sat back and did nothing.  The Chantry blames the mages for every bad thing that happens in Thedas and probably would like nothing more, then to see the mage blight put to death.

Anders had to die because Sebastian threatened to destroy Kirkwall with his armies if he wasn't killed for what he did and let's not forget a martyr is more valuable than a living person it gives people reason's to fight on.

I loved what they did with Anders in Dragon Age 2 no longer was he Alistair 2.0 he had his own character and became a create character.

He is definitly his own character now. Anyhow Anders doesnt have to die, you can choose to side with him. If you don't Anders is still a coward for not fighting for what he claims to care so much about. 

Bottomline he is all talk and no walk. If he doesnt want Sebastion to rally his armies then at least try to kill him: you either die as originally planned and he doesnt attack or he dies and he can't lead anything then. He just ends it so passively its impossible to respect him