260 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Anders can actually only be in Kirkwall shortly after the Blight ended if Awakenings happened directy after the battle of Denerim, and only took a couple of months at max. I think we were led to believe that Awakenings happened one year after the Blight though, so Anders could only have been in Kirkwall 2 years after Ostagar. But obviously he is in Kirkwall one or one and a half year after Ostagar.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 12:53 .

[Reidbynature]

I think Anders is just one of the companions who are ultimately frustrating to have because of their forced story arc. I don't think it really matters if you played with him in Awakenings, he does end up being a pain in the backside by the end of the game. Much like Fenris and Merrill.

It's a shame because it seemed like DA2 wouldn't be bogged down by the depressing Grey Wardens, the effects of the joining, being the only two Wardens and the world ending etc, but they got replaced with having to babysit the psychotic and the stupid.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 22 mars 2011 - 12:58 .

[Kelleth]

AlexXIV wrote...

Kelleth wrote...

Ander's died in Awakening... The thing that is in Dragon age 2, is NOT Ander's, it's some cheap imitation of him.
I shall miss you Ander's, I will take care of Ser-Pounce-Alot.

Ah sweet denial

I am always telling myself that Hawke's mom didn't die and it all was just a bad dream or that Varric lied about it. I hope it works better for you than for me though, because it doesn't really work well for me.

Doesn't work for me either... But I am still trying to convince myself.

[Dragonfan117]

For me personally, I thought Anders was pretty forgettable in Awakening. He came off as a mage clone of Alastair to me. In DA2 he seemed more his own character, someone with individuality. I actually felt bad for him during my playthrough of DA2. Growing up in the Circle for what Bethany calls "an accident of birth" is not something that mages should be punished for. And then seeing the anguish in him when he talked about how he corrupted his friend Justice into a spirit of Vengeance. I think Justice made the more dormant and suppressed emotions in Anders come to the forefront. I dont believe Anders would have done anything had he not become Justice's host. Being fused with Justice made me see Anders as a man who wanted to change how his people were treated in Thedas. His methods weren't always on the straight and narrow but changes on the scale of freeing all mages required drastic action. We saw it throughout the whole game, no one was willing to take that first step even though everyone knew it would come to that. The one person who could have made a difference chose not to and by that I mean Grand Cleric Elthena. Anders used her as a way to move things forward, her death was the excuse Meredith was looking for though I suspect she would have done what she did regardless. To change things sometimes innocent blood must be spilled, and Anders blowing up the Chantry was just that. One person's terrorist may be another persons hero. I thought they did an excellent job with Anders and with most of the cast of DA2 for that matter.

[Punahedan]

Ivhad as

[Jayce]

AlexXIV wrote...

Anders can actually only be in Kirkwall shortly after the Blight ended if Awakenings happened directy after the battle of Denerim, and only took a couple of months at max. I think we were led to believe that Awakenings happened one year after the Blight though, so Anders could only have been in Kirkwall 2 years after Ostagar. But obviously he is in Kirkwall one or one and a half year after Ostagar.

Oghren, at one point in Awakenings, points out he's been on the surface "less than two sodding years."
 
Now Lothering didn't fall imediately after Ostagar but probably no more than a couple of weeks later. That means Hawke & co. were on their way to Gwaren and Kirkwall roughly around the time the Warden was meeting Oghren.

Fast forward 12 months and that means Hawke is meeting Anders roughly the same time the Warden and Mhairi are meeting Anders too!    

[Punahedan]

For the love of all that is holy, sorry, my phone is wonky.

I was about to say, I had the impression he was still changing in Act 1 because we see him still cracking jokes and such. Even Varric can't get through to him by Act 3. Consider that sharing your brain and spirit with what is essentially a piece of the Fade probably sucks and probably changes you.

[Inujade]

Just popping in to say that I always interpreted Anders as bisexual, even back in Awakening. My reasons?

One, he was a Circle Mage, and it's been hinted that Circle Mages are slightly more free with sexuality than some of the other groups because of their isolation. I thought of how men who were at sea for long periods of time would sometimes take male lovers to relieve stress. Life in the Circle is certainly stressful.

Two, he has some flirtatious dialogue with Nathaniel. That speaks for itself I think.

Three, talking about being attracted to women does NOT make him automatically straight. Perhaps he leans towards women overall (many bisexuals DO have a preference between the two, despite being able to love and be aroused by both), but that does not remove men from the equation.

As for why he wouldn't mention it to a woman romancing him or to the Warden...I get the feeling that ****** and bisexuality, while not condemned in Thedas persay, is not looked on kindly either. Both Anders and Zevran ask if the idea offends you if you are a man, and they simply don't bring it up to a woman. Probably they worry that it WOULD offend a woman, and would scare her off early in the relationship. With a man, they HAVE to know upfront if it bothers you, so they ask.

[Beerfish]

Was he really all that changed? He escaped from the circle 7 times or so when you meet him. You meet him in a room full of dead dark spawn and dead templars and eh gives you a Bart Simpson like "I didn't do it" He essentially had the same out look as he did before but he took on a spirit friend. Heck I'm more sorry that Justice/Kristoff became what he became than Anders.

I do acknowledge that those that love his character in awakenings would be disappointed,

[Taleroth]

maegi46 wrote...

I understand both words clearly and they fit what Anders did to the chantry to a tee.

No, you don't understand either word clearly.  If you did, you would know they describe a long standing and recurring behavior pattern.  You do not diagnose based on a single event.

Not even going into how you are misrepresenting that event.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 mars 2011 - 01:52 .

[Unichrone]

David Gaider wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
Plus, unless I'm mistaken you couldn't romance him or anyone in Awakening. He may have said he likes women in Awakening, but that doesn't mean he isn't bisexual. Or maybe Justice made him bisexual.

As stated, nobody could romance him in Awakening. He expressed an interest in women, yes, but as far as I know that doesn't preclude someone being bisexual-- though in neither game does he express a preference. Whatever someone chooses to perceive him as is up to them.

As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

If someone doesn't like the direction we take a character, however-- oh well. Wouldn't be the first time.

You have a very good point, but is this really the reason why the character was changed?  Or are you using meta-game, real-life principles to justify arbitrary in-game nuances?  

And if he changed so much in the span of one year, how come he changed so little in the span of nine?  

Modifié par Unichrone, 22 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[LobselVith8]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

Jennifer Hepler wrote Anders in Dragon Age II.

You think Anders would have been more brave if he run away after destroying the local Chantry? He didn't run, he called out Orsino for not standing up to the templars or the Grand Cleric, and he said the world deserved to see how bad the plight of the mages was. He won't fight because he accepts Hawe's decision to kill him for what he did, but he's certainly willing to fight the templars to defend the mages if Hawke decides he should live. I don't think it's cowardly that he sees the moral implications of what he did, and will accept judgement for it. Anders will give his life if Hawke decides he went too far, and he will also give his life in a war with the templars if it means the mages have a chance at survival. He outright calls out the Chantry controlled Circle slavery (and it's a term even Hawke can make to Fenris to make him see why he sided with the mages) so he clearly wants to put an end to it. I don't see Anders as a sociopath for wanting to emancipate the mages from subjugation.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[_Aine_]

Frankly, I never liked justice. I always kind of considered him an extremist spirit who "conveniently" ended up in Kristoff, who, even back then, seemed to be getting addicted to feeling through a human. As his body started to become un-inhabitable, sure it would seem great to latch on to a powerful yet somehow naive mage you just so happen to be hanging out with who has a soft spot for animals... I never really believed, even before DA2 that Justice was benevolent. Frankly, even as a concept ( and not a pretend fictional spirit) it isn't benevolent. IF Justice was the true embodiment of Justice, then that by definition would mean that what Anders did *could be* true justice and well deserved. I am not ready to go THAT far because I am not sure innocents in the cross-fire is true justice.... but I I digress. YES, of course Anders had a streak of hate in him. ANYONE who has been victimized or abused or mistreated to such huge lengths would.

Anders had no problem controlling that hate until he had a tag-along spirit who fed on that hate. In fact, I would say that Justice didn't feed on the hate at all. He fed slowly on any humanity Anders had so Justice could experience it and simply amplified for his OWN end Anders hate for ...well, all that Anders hated.

In the end I was simply sad that they to demonize a decent guy in order to have a scapegoat for all the problems in Kirkwall. I don't buy that it wouldn't have happened without Hawke either. No-one NEEDS an idol or a relic, or even one lunatic to start a holy war. Sure, it helps, but time would have done the same anyway. The problem was deep-rooted in Thedas and had been for many a year.

I personally think the story was stronger *without* one of your friends becoming an abominaton (even though, despite appearances, it just never felt like Anders, more like Justice), because when you have a scapegoat for a cause, it polarizes the true cause.  And ironically, there is little justice in that.

Modifié par shantisands, 22 mars 2011 - 02:29 .

[RosaAquafire]

I think the thing that everyone is forgetting is that Anders isn't just Anders, Anders is also Justice. Anders in DA2 is half inconsistant with Anders in DA:A. He's also half inconsistant with Justice in DA:A. Put Justice and Anders together, and you basically get Anders in his initial meeting in DA2. And then you get to watch them poison each other.

So ... I'm not sure what the problem is?

[Morning808]

maegi46 wrote...

He was a great character in Awakenings. Funny, spirited. Loved WOMEN. Not crazy or any terrorist tendencies. He wanted freedom yes and he got that by joining the Grey Wardens. At least in my game he did. He was a trusted friend and someone you could depend on with your life. He was not joined with Justice. Justice possessed a dead grey warden...

Then in DA2 his voice is changed, the writer is changed and his character is a direct 180 from what he used to be. Now he's pyschotic , possessed and gay. A terrorist incident waiting to happen. Not amused and not happy with the changes at all. Thoughts?

And thats a problem? He never had a romance Awakening so there was no clue which gender he liked.

And how is he Pyschotic? He is just takes thing to the extrem. He was the one that pushed the rebellion since no one else would

[Vicious]

Because the game never outright says it, but at that point in the story [act 3] Anders is less Anders and more a mouthpiece of vengeance.

No, he's not the same person in Awakenings. How could he be? He's an abomination and his own anger and resentment turned a goodly spirit of pure Justice into a dangerously unstable demon.


And said demon is living in his head. Nudging him to take a certain path. Through the whole game.

Can't really be surprised by his actions.

[GranitemonkeyX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

Nothing like stabbing that self-righteous pygmied baby in his spine near the end. What kind of a loser is he for starting this great war then waiting around to be executed? Seems that mages being posessed by the "good" spirits are worse than those posessed by the bad.

Why is he a loser for thinking that the injustice mages face should be brought to an end? He doesn't think Hawke would spare him for what he did, but he's willing to put his life on the line to defend the mages. Anders thought freedom was preferable to subjugation for the mages.

So he will blow up the entire chantry for his devout belief in freeing the mages but he wont fight or even run away from Hawke? He will start this big war and then bow out not even fighting in it? Way to be a total coward. Blow up some priests but if I have to confront//fight/flee from my friend/lover/mutually disagreeable acquaintance his convictions fly out the window. Kudos to whoever wrote this guy, he inspires such hatred I wish I could meet him and then stick my cinematic dagger right in his eye.

Jennifer Hepler wrote Anders in Dragon Age II.

You think Anders would have been more brave if he run away after destroying the local Chantry? He didn't run, he called out Orsino for not standing up to the templars or the Grand Cleric, and he said the world deserved to see how bad the plight of the mages was. He won't fight because he accepts Hawe's decision to kill him for what he did, but he's certainly willing to fight the templars to defend the mages if Hawke decides he should live. I don't think it's cowardly that he sees the moral implications of what he did, and will accept judgement for it. Anders will give his life if Hawke decides he went too far, and he will also give his life in a war with the templars if it means the mages have a chance at survival. He outright calls out the Chantry controlled Circle slavery (and it's a term even Hawke can make to Fenris to make him see why he sided with the mages) so he clearly wants to put an end to it. I don't see Anders as a sociopath for wanting to emancipate the mages from subjugation.

So he sets up a huge fight between the templars and mages. Yet he will only help fight the uber oppressive templars unless Hawke tells him it's ok?

DA:A In the blackmarsh Justice (who is basically now Anders) rallies the enslaved spirit peoples to fight the Countess. Then he fights the Countess with them. Yet now after he sets up an inevitable war he refuses to fight for the mages.

[LobselVith8]

GranitemonkeyX wrote...

So he sets up a huge fight between the templars and mages. Yet he will only help fight the uber oppressive templars unless Hawke tells him it's ok?

DA:A In the blackmarsh Justice (who is basically now Anders) rallies the enslaved spirit peoples to fight the Countess. Then he fights the Countess with them. Yet now after he sets up an inevitable war he refuses to fight for the mages.

If Hawke asks him to fight the templars, Anders has no problem putting his life on the line to defend the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle against genocide. I didn't kill Anders, and he fought the templars at my side the entire time.

[Camenae]

Um, Anders certainly didn't look or sound completely straight to me in Awakening. His DA2 character had continuity issues, but the sexuality thing wasn't part of it.

While I agree that I would have liked to see his change happening before Hawke's eyes rather than already a done deal by the time Hawke meets him, I think his change is perfectly understandable. It's most definitely a great mental strain to have a spirit inside you, demon or not, for any amount of time, but especially for as long as Anders has been merged with Justice. That, and being an apostate on and off for years. Not to mention the stress of the poverty he no doubt faces, healing people for free. I doubt a lot of workers you meet in the inner-city free clinics are suave jokesters, and I wish my Hawke had the option of offering him money. His clinic also brings him exposure, which is dangerous for him. I can't see how anyone would not turn serious being constantly, incessantly subjected to these things. Zevran managed to remain cheerful, but he didn't have a spirit inside him, one that I'm positive was a complete stick in the mud. Justice didn't even want Anders to get laid, as he "disapproves" of the attraction to Hawke.

[Legbiter]

You folks are like the emo-teens and soccer moms who hated it when Oghren went from being the comic sidekick to the game's most tragic character in Awakenings. Personally, I like how the writers sometimes take the established archetype and toy with it or just entirely flip it around.

[Arppis]

Legbiter wrote...

You folks are like the emo-teens and soccer moms who hated it when Oghren went from being the comic sidekick to the game's most tragic character in Awakenings. Personally, I like how the writers sometimes take the established archetype and toy with it or just entirely flip it around.

Hm, when did he do that?

Oh yeah and agreed: there is NOTHING wrong with characters having a crisis that changes them forever. Completely healthy people can get mental illness, sometimes bad things happen to the good people. Things change, you guys just need to roll with the punches.

Modifié par Arppis, 22 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[NedPepper]

Yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but if you let Anders live, he's MORE than willing to help you fight. The only reason he looks defeated is because he went behind Hawke's back. He betrayed him and that was why. There's even a conversation afterward where Aveline tells him he will be tried fairly for his actions by the guard, to which Anders replies something along the lines of "That's exactly what I want."

Or in other words...justice.

[Bmeszaros]

I liked Anders in Awakening because outside of just being a mage, he didn't have any extended baggage issues. He wanted to be free of the Circle/Templar influence and that was all. Despite being basically "Free" in the Grey Wardens, Thats not enough for him. He is really no different than any other mage in this game, Freedom is never enough for any mage, it seems.

This is why I have killed him through both playthroughs and can say he is the character I hate the most in DA2.

He chose to come to Kirkwall, knowing it was basically a templar-controlled city, he chose to leave the wardens, thus making himself a target again for the templars/chantry and he chose to allow Justice to move in, already being aware of the potential danger it put everyone around him, even those he wished to help, in.

While Merrill may not have quite understood or comprehended what she was doing, her intentions, from start were to help her people reclaim lost knowledge, Bethany had more compassion as a Mage than Anders ever could, she cared more about her family and the people around her and didn't want to see them put in danger because of her. Anders is a self-centered terrorist, nothing more. He doesn't really care who he hurts, templar or mage, if they don't share his skewed and potential false accusations and viewpoints. He sees every mage's preceived injustices as his, even if he has no actual knowledge of them himself.

[Kyosukedei]

I beat the game 3 times, and did everything, and tried every possible dialouge for the story with 40+ saves per a character (not including edit saves, mode saves, and etc etc etc)

And at the end of every game I hated Anders so much that I only let him llive once to see what the ending would be like. I actually saved the part where you decided his fate just so I could SHANK his ass with whte "cutscence" "dagger