260 réponses à ce sujet

[p95h]

I wanted the option to turn him in to the circle. The story pigeonholed Hawke concerning Anders. What the hell, he initially tells you (if you choose the right investigative option) that he cannot seperate himself from justice, and then later on tells you "Oh, I did some research and I can seperate myself" yet when you ask him about what he's going to do with his "Potion of seperation" he insists on not telling you. (Fine if he's a rival, but when he's a staunch friend?!?!?!) At that point, I knew something was fishy, and would have warned the templars that something was amiss. Sorry, it's like an "Intervention", sometimes friends need to have their face smacked a few times to wake up.

[Carmen_Willow]

The OP refers to Anders in his title as a "Sociopath." Others have called him "mad" "insane" "crazy" etc. To my mind, Anders is neither a sociopath nor psychotic.

Sociopaths/psychopaths/persons suffering from antisocial personality disorder have two things that are hallmarks of the disorder: 1) A total inability to feel normal emotions, particularly empathy; and 2) fearlessness. Anders demostrates in Awakenings and in DA II that he has empathy and feelings. He has emotions. The true psychopath (and yes, I like the older term, I think it more descriptive) has to fake emotions, because they don't feel them. When you run an FMRI on their brains the section that lights up for "normal" people regarding emotions don't light up for them. Psychopaths are organically different. Rule out psychopathy for Anders....he feels and he feels fear. In that regard, he is quite normal.

As to being crazy. Anders in DA II is always oriented as to time and place, he does not hallucinate visually and he doesn't hear voices that aren't there. He doesn't have delusions of persecution because they really ARE after him, and he doesn't suffer time loss or memory loss, even when the "spirit" takes over. He never declared himself to be the messiah, and is certainly coginizant of the fact that what he did trangressed the laws of his god and man and that he will suffer punishment for it. He is not psychotic. Please stop calling him crazy. You do honest to goodness psychotics a disservice by declaring Anders "mad."

You could make a case for his being severely depressed. Depressed males often commit suicide by cop (or in this case, Champion) and often turn their depression (and rage) outward on others rather than on themselves.

Certainly he suffers from a real (in the universe of Dragon Age) physical condition of spirit possession which affects his judgment somewhat -- however, he chose to meld deliberately to fight the opression of the mages. This does not, however, excuse his actions.

Anders, decided to kill a whole bunch of people in the Chantry in the name of his cause to start a war. He did not ask the permission of those he sacrificed; he threw them up on the altar of HIS beliefs and took their lives without their consent. He forced them to fuel his revolution. He made them into SLAVES.

That makes Anders no better than the worst Templar in the Chantry who beats up mages for fun. That makes him no better than the worst blood mage in Tevinter. He may as well have bought a whole bunch of elves and slaughtered them for a huge blood pool to effect his magic. He took their lives without thought for their future, their future children, their present children, their hopes their dreams....it was about what Anders wanted...it was never about anything else.

He is not a hero. He is a selfish, narcissistic murdering man. As I said, please don't give him the excuse of a real psychological disorder.

IMHO.

[stephen1493]

I liked the change.

I never felt more "betrayed" in all my years of gaming. Story wise, I thought it was well done.



Edit: I can only wonder how "broken" the the fans who romanced him were left. It's like Alistair taking the final hit on the Archdemon all over again.

Modifié par stephen1493, 23 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[Aanna]

Wow, Carmen_Willow, that was an incredibly well thought-out post. Anders even states that he is aiming for "suicide by cop," when he says that the potion he is working on is to separate him from Justice.

For argument's sake, could you say that it is Vengeance (aka Justice) who is the selfish, narcissistic murdering one? Then one could say that Anders is allowing Vengeance this one act of devastation because he knows that they will be killed for it, thus keeping Vengeance from doing anything more terrible. A side benefit would be that Anders is also free from his living-hell prison. I think the banter that he has with Merrill on the way to consult the Sundermount Demon suggests that Anders has less control over his abomination-ness than you give him credit for (and that banter gives me a lot more sympathy for him -- it's truly terrible).

On the main post point, I still think that if the VA had been the same, a lot of the personality changes would be less jarring.

[Foolsfolly]

I too wanted to turn him over to the Chantry.

It was terrorism. He decided to be a fantasy setting terrorist instead of a fantasy setting Ghandi. There had to be a better way to help the mages.

....just an idea, but proving that a crazy creepy idol-sword had driven the Knight-Commander insane would have been a good first step.

[stephen1493]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I too wanted to turn him over to the Chantry.

It was terrorism. He decided to be a fantasy setting terrorist instead of a fantasy setting Ghandi. There had to be a better way to help the mages.

....just an idea, but proving that a crazy creepy idol-sword had driven the Knight-Commander insane would have been a good first step.

What Chantry?

I keed. I keed.

[TheRealJayDee]

Brockololly wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

Although I agree with everything you say for me personally it was the different voice actor who killed the character for me. That just wasn't Anders. There are few things in movies/games/etc I hate more than recastings, unless there are really good reasons (like with Spartacus). With his "real" voice Anders and his story might have had a totally different impact on me, because I probably would have wanted to talk him more than when it was absolutely necessary. As it was he ended up being my second most neglected companion, because I just couldn't stand talking to him. He did look (a bit) like Anders, but the voice just took me out of the game every time.

[Foolsfolly]

I will state again that Anders should have always been voiced by Greg Ellis.

It's just weird to replace his voice actor. Isabella's replacement, however, was a great and improved one. I don't want to think about Anora when Isabella's going into her sexy talks.

[Kenshen]

People change over time and not always for the better.

[Pious_Augustus]

Anders to be honest War was needed between the Mages and the Chantry.

A bad peace is even worse than war." -- Tacitus

At some point the line must be drawn and we must battle to fight for what is right and what we believe in no matter the costs. In this as much as we will hate the person who has started the war the war is needed.

Anders can be compared with however Timothy Mcveigh. A man who believed a bombing would start the war to as Thomas Jefferson said,

"Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."

[Malanek]

I guess there are parallels to the character in V for Vendetta. The perspective for that story was that the British government was bad. Very bad. So the acts of terrorism were more accepted. In DA2 the grand cleric was one of the few genuinely nice characters in the game so I don’t think his actions are going to be met with the same acceptance here.

[Il Divo]

Brockololly wrote...

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

This pretty much hits my main complaint. It's not that I have a problem with Anders fusing with Justice, becoming 'hardened' after years of hardship, blowing up the Chantry. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anything left of his Awakening character, which makes him feel like an entirely different person. If they instead had kept certain aspects of his old personality intact, it would have made it easier to recognize the character as Anders (whom I loved in Awakening) while still letting the player feel sympathy for his situation.

[screamin_jesus]

I hated what anders did at the end, a lot. BUT. It makes sense.

I mean c'mon guys, hints are constantly dropped through the whole game that he is losing control to justice.

Also I personally hated anders in awakening, I liked him far better in da2. His awakening character feels like a parody of the da2 character, his voice actor was terrible too.

[FLStyle]

Il Divo wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

This pretty much hits my main complaint. It's not that I have a problem with Anders fusing with Justice, becoming 'hardened' after years of hardship, blowing up the Chantry. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anything left of his Awakening character, which makes him feel like an entirely different person. If they instead had kept certain aspects of his old personality intact, it would have made it easier to recognize the character as Anders (whom I loved in Awakening) while still letting the player feel sympathy for his situation.

+1

Seems like they wrote, designed and voiced a new character and slapped the name Anders and a half-assed plot about Justice on the end.

[Pwnzor326]

I too am disappointed with the personality change. I feel like the character they tried to force Anders into being would have been done better with a brand new character without all the baggage from Awakening. I didn't kill Anders at the end because I liked him Awakening but Sebastian's threat of violence against Kirkwall really made me second guess that decision. That was the only decision besides taking Bethany to the deep roads that I second-guessed.

[Pious_Augustus]

What kills me though about Anders is he does not have the Spirit Healer Ability he had. I really needed a healer and sadly it doesn't let you choose much in this game seeing Merrill is just for DPS....I miss the choice of Orgins

[noxsachi]

FLStyle wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

My issue with Anders in DA2 wasn't so much that he ended up doing what he did and all, but rather the disconnect from the last time we saw Anders in Awakening to when we see him in DA2. So that when you meet him in DA2, added with the new voice actor, he seems almost entirely like a different character- so any latent feelings for Anders from Awakening sort of dry up pretty quickly. If maybe we saw him as more Awakening style Anders in the start, had him take on Justice and then followed him down his descent into mage terrorism, that would have been more impactful for the player, as opposed to just having him start out as a pretty much foreign entity, despite having met him already in Awakening.

I get that "people change" but its more interesting when you can more clearly see that change happen before your eyes and its not all done off screen in between games, which is what it felt like with Anders.

This pretty much hits my main complaint. It's not that I have a problem with Anders fusing with Justice, becoming 'hardened' after years of hardship, blowing up the Chantry. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anything left of his Awakening character, which makes him feel like an entirely different person. If they instead had kept certain aspects of his old personality intact, it would have made it easier to recognize the character as Anders (whom I loved in Awakening) while still letting the player feel sympathy for his situation.

+1

Seems like they wrote, designed and voiced a new character and slapped the name Anders and a half-assed plot about Justice on the end.

Basically this. If we were shown more of the change, ie. meeting Anders and seeing him become Janders instead of it just being Janders from the get go. I mean if you go back and listen to his dialogue with Justice in Awakening it is pretty heavily foreshadowed, its just in DAII I never ever see Anders, just Janders.

Losing his voice actor didn't help though, I had just beaten Awakening again and hearing a different voice probably did as much to say that DAII Anders != DAA Anders as did the new writing direction. Isabela's wasn't as bad given how minor of a role she played but Anders was around for all of my DAA playthrough so the difference is much more noticeable.

[Whailor]

I agree, the Anders I was with in Awakening and the Anders I was with in DA2 are different persons. Nothing in his behavior in Awakening showed any signs of such craziness as he has in DA2. And he indeed was neither a gay or bisexual, he stated several times that he was "into girls", plain and clearly. This whole "almost every companion is a gay or bi" thing is over the top anyway.. But I digress, this is about Anders. And he is a disappointment in DA2. When I played with him in Awakening, he was quite happy in the end to be a Warden. As his epilogue also told, he left the Wardens for a bit but later came back and stayed with them until the end, literally. But I guess BW wanted a psycho in the game so they made him into one.

[Dean_the_Young]

I disagree: it was easy enough to tell that Anders had a strong undercurrent of bitterness and anger about the Mage situation across Thedas. Not even about Kirkwall, but the Circles in general: you could get into arguments about it, hear it in his stories and party banter. While he was flippant about it, the undercurrent was there, just also stemmied by laziness/a lack of motivation to turn his own anger into a crusade and action for all mages.

This is where Justice comes in: Anders in Dragon Age 2 isn't just Anders, it's Anders AND Justice. Justice's traits, and development, need to be considered as well. Justice's lack of patience, Justice's drive, the unwillingness to simply sit around and let the situation continue, is what was added to Anders. DA2 Anders isn't a completely different person: DA2 Anders is Awakening Anders who just can't stand by and do nothing.

[NKKKK]

The reason? The reason we wanted to develop his character that way was because that's where we wanted to take him. I'm not sure we need more reasons than that, do we?

Ha ha yes you do

[Estelindis]

Personally, I didn't mind the change in Anders's personality until he decided that blowing up the chantry and murdering all the clerics and worshippers inside was just peachy. I can't reconcile this to his personality in Awakening - or Justice's personality there, for that matter. I get that a spirit is not meant to experience the kinds of feelings that a human would have, and that Justice experiencing Anders's particularly strong emotions concerning the Chantry and the Circle would change them both. But Grand Cleric Elthina was nothing short of saintly. If anyone should have shown Anders that there are good, wise, compassionate people in the Chantry, it was her. Not being able to see the good in her (or seeing himself as the martyr when she fit that description much better) shows that Anders is completely incapable of realising that all members of the Chantry are not the same - and thus puts him in exactly the same boat as those who decide that all mages should be treated as if they're malificari. His hypocrisy was breathtaking and deeply unpleasant, and I was unspeakably ashamed that he'd been one of Hawke's closest companions. Considering that I happily brought him and Justice pretty much everywhere with me in Awakening (as soon as I got them), that's saying rather a lot. I know he's Bioware's character to do with as they wish, but the climactic events of DA2 just felt like a total character assassination for him.

David Gaider wrote...

The reason? The reason we wanted to develop his character that way was because that's where we wanted to
take him. I'm not sure we need more reasons than that, do we?

Maybe this is the only answer you want to give us, but that doesn't make it any more informative.  We may infer that you wanted to do it because... well, you did it. 

Why did you want to develop Anders in this way?  Why did you think it would be interesting?  What exactly was the dynamic you were going for, and do you think you achieved it?  Is fan reaction what you expected (or hoped, or wanted)?

I am aware that we have no particular right to an answer at all, since you post here in your free time because you seem to like interacting with the community (though sometimes we seem to do your head in as well).  I am not demanding more of an answer, simply asking for one.

EDIT: Actually, looking back on the short story written for Anders, maybe this is exactly the reaction DG expeected.  The newly-joined Anders-Justice thinks of killing chantry sisters in agony.  Gah...

Modifié par Estelindis, 23 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[NKKKK]

He's not going to answer you.

[Oneiropolos]

I find it interesting to see the arguments made by the writers for why Anders became the way he did. But I still agree with those who say it should have -just been a different character-. I'll still argue there needed to be written in a redemption option.Having just finished Torchwood entirely (at least till the new season), I've gotten really jaded about the concept of characters being totally demolished for the sake of 'plot'. And I think I realize why. Crap happens. It does. And it sucks. And life can really suck and be a desperate search to find some sort of meaning for tragedy because otherwise we have to accept this empty,hollow feeling that life doesn't make sense and it never will and those we love die for no reason. What's strange, is the game even addresses this, in the conversation between Hawke and Gamlen. When Gamlen asks the reason why it was Leandra, you have the option to basically go, "Does it matter why?" instead of saying to him "She looked like someone". Gamlen regrets he asked when he finds out the reason why. Because it's STILL just as meaningless and now it's horrific too. The fact is, we don't want to watch a dark spiral of insanity that we can do nothing about and then to sink our blade into a character's back because in many of our minds, we couldn't trust that he wasn't just completely past any redemption. Honestly, the Anders from before...if he ever did come back to his senses, I'm not sure he'd be able to stay sane with the knowledge of what happened.

What occurs to Anders is given a lot of logical reason. But emotionally, what happens to him was lacking in reason. We're just told "Hey, Anders really was just insanely hateful before, enough that he could even corrupt a spirit of Justice!" And... I'm sorry, but the character of Anders in Awakening was displayed as cynical, wry, comical, but also desirous of just finding a way to be happy. He didn't like Templars but he had reasons and he didn't feel sympathy over their deaths, but he didn't try to cause them. And I GET why he took Justice in, why the two were bad for each other. I do. I really get it and it makes sense in a plot direction. Where it stops making sense is that Justice seems like himself if you take him into the Fade. He's absolutely set on 'what is right'. And even though he's in a place he's more comfortable in, his concern is for the stability of the dream. You know what moment in DAII I really felt I heard Awakening!Anders in? The debate between Fenris and Anders on why Fenris's master and the templars hadn't killed the other. Fenris says, "How have the Templars managed to not kill you?" and Anders quips back, "Because -I'm- charming." And for that brief instant, it was like we were back in Awakening with THAT Anders.

I just feel a huge disconnect between Awakening and DAII Anders that cannot be explained by Justice unless we also get some sort of story about how Justice himself was becoming corrupt. Even though, again, he didn't seem corrupt in the Fade part of DAII. I adored Anders in Awakening and wished we could have romantic partners in it. Instead, DAII made me wish Nathaniel had just made a come back and he and Fenris could have brooding competitions rather than Anders being a psycho. Did the writers really not ever feel the sensation that they were bringing home a newly engaged person to their kids and telling their kids to call this new person mommy/daddy now even though the kid KNOWS this strange new person is NOT their mommy/daddy and why are they being told that it is? Because that's kinda how it feels. I can call him Anders now, but I actually felt a painful twinge listening to his banter from Awakening. I immediately went "God, he died. He died way before any of my characters murder knifed him. He died before the game even started. That Anders no longer exists". And so I'll call the DAII character "Anders" because I've gotten that that's what I'm supposed to do. But considering the characters were the only thing I actually liked about Awakening...I'll always feel that disappointment that we didn't have our sarcastic mage who just wanted a chance to be happy back. I'd take him and his selfishness any day over the murderer he became.

I say this having honestly done my best to do a completely pro-Anders playthrough and see his romance and actually left Fenris behind half of the time because anytime Fenris was in the party I felt like "Crap, I know I've already romanced Fenris twice but.... he's so much better...." I like to think I really tried to understand Anders and his new motives and I sorta get them. Logically, I certainly see the screwed up way of thinking that led to where he is now. Legally, I'll always see him as a murderer. And emotionally, I'll now always see him as a betrayer and a deluded killer. It really is summed up in the end song's lyrics. "I'm not calling you a liar, just don't lie to me. I'm not calling you a thief, just don't steal from me. I'm not calling you a ghost, Just stop haunting me." Ironically, I only actually listened to the credits to hear the song AFTER the Anders romance playthrough. And it just echoed in me. Because I felt...the Anders romance was as hollow as the romance the song portrays. You don't call him what he is... but you know what he is. And in the Rivalmance, Anders even admits there was no one in Kirkwall he wouldn't kill. He's not saying "Except you" to Hawke. The mage most of us loved was gone before the game. We never had a chance to save him. Maybe that's the really pathetically sad part.

[ginzaen]

to be honest playing awakenings recently, i can see how anders went down this path- he never seemed exactly the stable type.

[highcastle]

It's not butchering if you don't like the direction they went. To quote the Dude "that's just like your opinion man." I'm of the opinion that Anders' story line worked so well precisely because his character changed. Would it have been so effective if you didn't see how far Anders fell for the sake of his cause? Would this many people be arguing over his decision or would they condemn him outright? Anders lost much to Justice. That's the point. If you're upset, good. I think you're supposed to be. I think that's why it was so emotional seeing the lengths he went to for his cause, knowing where he came from and why he did it.

Of course this is all my opinion. You're free to disagree and I expected this kind of hate the moment I reached the end game. I just believe it's intentional to a point.