260 réponses à ce sujet

[Nevara1013]

Casuist wrote...

... a sociopath who spend the bulk of his time healing the impoverished, right.

Anders is a compassionate man who is driven by desperation and a spirit he can't control.

I just wanted to pop in and say that this is one of the best descriptions of Anders state-of-mind I've read. Exactly how I see my Anders.

[Camenae]

I actually think that, VA re-casting aside, it would make less sense if Anders DIDN'T change the way he did between Awakening and DA2. Justice, demon or not, undeniably took a huge toll on Anders' mental stability. In addition, healing people for free makes you no money. It must be frustrating trying to make a living while on the run, working your butt off and still living in abject poverty. How many inner-city free clinic workers do you see who stay suave jokesters? And they aren't dealing with the added stress of being possessed and hunted.

I would find it highly unlikely if he hasn't cracked at all after the years of severe strain and bitterness and was still his determinedly cheery Awakening self.

[PSUHammer]

All the nuances mentioned, aside, I just thought that Anders was some comic relief in Awakening and that his smarmy sarcasm replaced Alistair. That "lady's man" type sarcasm and humor was totally gone this time around. He might as well been a new character with how different he was. Some of it has to do with the VA delivery, too.

[M8DMAN]

Shadowknight12 wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

Shadowknight12 wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

[...] and gay. 

Correction: Bisexual.

That's all.

Bisexual means he likes men and women. My Hawke was a man and he made advances and flirted with me. Never saw him express any affection or desire to a woman. Therefore in my game he certainly exhibited gay tendencies. I don't care or discriminate against gay people. My point was that he was very much "straight" in Awakenings. People don't suddenly turn gay or bisexual. They either were to begin with or they were hetero. That's only one aspect of how he changed. Way to focus on that.

From Awakening:

Nathaniel: "You don't always wear robes, do you?"
Anders: "Not when I'm naked, I don't."

The tone of voice is crucial here, so I'm adding a youtube link:  around minute 1:11. Also, "Ser Pounce-a-lot" and his plethora of 'who's a little kitty?' moments. For the other half of bisexuality, I believe you've provided enough examples. In DA2, even if you play as a male, there is a party banter with Isabela in which it is implied that they slept together once. Mandatory link:  first banter, right from the start.

And yes, I'm focusing on this because everything else has been oversaid already. Yes, they changed him completely from Awakening. The official explanation is because he was possessed by Justice (who also changed into Vengeance). There's really nothing to discuss. Yes, his character was remade almost from scratch. There is an in-game reason for that. Whether that is satisfactory or not will vary from person to person.

I like Cats. That doesn't make me bisexual.

[god dammit anders]

So, what I've gotten from this is ZOMG ANDERS LIKES MEN NAO AND HE CHANGED BUT BEING POSESSED BY A SPIRIT/FEELING TARGETED AND PERSECUTED IS NO EXCUSE. Right. How dare he. How dare characters evolve into somethig different...oh wait. I thought good writers did that? Good writers make characters that evolve and respond and change. Static Anders would have been ridiculous. Can you imagine him being peppy and hilarious while discussing being HUNTED AND MAGE!LOBOTOMIZED by the Chantry? Or LOLing because, hey they killed Karl, no big deal. The story is darker, he is possessed and therefor IS NOT THE SAME ANDERS AS BEFORE, so idk why people are all shocked an appalled. If him liking guys is what really bothers you, then make a female Hawke or tell him you aren't interested. Not hard. 



Also, I didn't look for the OP but how is someone 'obviously bisexual' ala Zev? Please explain that to me. 

Modifié par god dammit anders, 23 mars 2011 - 07:44 .

[Zeratul83]

The main reason I understand that Anders is so different is because "I don't like actually playing games" Jennifer Hepler wrote him this time. She may or may not have written him in DA:O:A. That girl has straight up Chronicles of Riddick-ulous quotes.

[PSUHammer]

Is someone's forum name actually "god damnit Anders"???

[Carmen_Willow]

Aanna wrote...

.....For argument's sake, could you say that it is Vengeance (aka Justice) who is the selfish, narcissistic murdering one? Then one could say that Anders is allowing Vengeance this one act of devastation because he knows that they will be killed for it, thus keeping Vengeance from doing anything more terrible. A side benefit would be that Anders is also free from his living-hell prison. I think the banter that he has with Merrill on the way to consult the Sundermount Demon suggests that Anders has less control over his abomination-ness than you give him credit for (and that banter gives me a lot more sympathy for him -- it's truly terrible).

On the main post point, I still think that if the VA had been the same, a lot of the personality changes would be less jarring.

I agree that Anders may no longer be in control...but it doesn't excuse him for two reasons:

1.  Anders is a mature mage who passed his harrowing.  He knows full well the danger of possession. He gambled that by being possessed by a "spirit" rather than a demon he could avoid the consequences of  possession, so he took the risk. He says in game that he believes justice will add to his ability to fight for the mages; i.e., more power (just like the magisters).  and,

2.  You can argue that it was Anders who corrupted Justice. Dean_the_Young stated that Anders always had an undercurrent of bitterness even in Awakenings.  I agree.  Bitterness is helpless rage.  It was there in his tone and jokes all the way through Awakenings (well done VA).  Anders didn't want to feel helpless any longer but his rage destroyed both him and Justice.  Anders knew better -- he knew the risks. Justice should have known better as well but I think he was seduced by the prospect of remaining in the real world.  

BTW, I think Anders was brilliantly written in this game.  The very fact that I am so angry at him means that I was really able to connect with the character.  Well done.

[god dammit anders]

Exactly! Hating Anders because of who he became, whether he allowed it or it was in inevitable spiral, is what makes the writing of his character so good! The ability to make the player feel something even if it isn't a nice feeling. For those who felt betrayed, it means there was something to betray. You were invested. He mattered, the romance/friendship/rivalmance mattered. And that is the point of RPG games where NPC's require interaction. It's to make you feel something, to make you invest, to make them matter to you.


And they did that. Bravo.

[Estelindis]

This is a fair point. I'm enraged at Anders because the game made me care.

But I'm also angry because I guessed what he was going to do, yet the game wouldn't let me stop him.

[RyMaNF0v]

Played throught the game, playing it again and I just cant stop shouting at the grand clerik for being a stubborn ***** and staying in the city. I have to admit I didnt like the new anders, he didnt make me laugh at all in this game, it was mostly smug hawke and varrik, and just when I start to like him he pulls a stunt like that, part of my knew he was gonna kill someone. (sigh)

[Tashash]

Estelindis wrote...

This is a fair point. I'm enraged at Anders because the game made me care.

But I'm also angry because I guessed what he was going to do, yet the game wouldn't let me stop him.

This.

I miss Awakenings Anders....I liked him, and when you get brief flashes of the old Anders in game it's bittersweet, maybe BioWare had a reason for doing what they did and maybe they didn't - certainly DAII is a LOT more angsty than Origins was.

But I can't help thinking, maybe he wouldn't have gone bonkers if they'd let him keep Ser Pounce-A-Lot...

[NRO TYN]

David Gaider wrote...

MyKingdomCold wrote...
Plus, unless I'm mistaken you couldn't romance him or anyone in Awakening. He may have said he likes women in Awakening, but that doesn't mean he isn't bisexual. Or maybe Justice made him bisexual.

As stated, nobody could romance him in Awakening. He expressed an interest in women, yes, but as far as I know that doesn't preclude someone being bisexual-- though in neither game does he express a preference. Whatever someone chooses to perceive him as is up to them.

As for the other changes, we certainly did change his voice actor. The fact that he is no longer the same character, however, is because people change-- and he, in particular, has been through a lot since joining with Justice. He always had that streak of hatred towards the Circle. He just felt powerless to do anything about it.

If someone doesn't like the direction we take a character, however-- oh well. Wouldn't be the first time.

Good thing you didnt say "Evolve" you would have invoke the wraft of the fanbase

Modifié par II That Burn In Ya Ass II, 24 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[The Angry One]

What would Tommy Wiseau say?
"YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, ANDERS!!"

The writer's intention no doubt was to illicit these feelings. Anders for me is someone you want to like. A passionate, caring man... who's also unfortunately become an abomination who made innocents go boom for his misguided ideals. I hate him, I want to kill him, because damnit, I love him! Why did he destroy himself!
And so on.

[fallen_valkyrie]

maegi46 wrote...

MJRick wrote...

Come back after you complete the game next time...

I did finish the game and that is part of the reason I am not happy with Anders. Blowing up the one neutral faction that might have helped find a peaceful solution and causing the right of Annulment to be called immediately was not a smart or good move to make "on the mages behalf" He appointed himself as some kind of saviour for all mages without thinking to ask them first or care about the consequences of his terrorist act. He brought only more hatred from an already close minded society towards mages by that one destructive act.

Ignoring that, and yeah that's hard to do, his character is NOTHING like the one we met and got to know in Awakenings.

So, come back when you learn to read a post and can comment and actually add to a discussion. Thanks.

anders is part of the reason why every circle rebeled

[maegi46]

Anders should have stayed dead and a new character should have taken his place here. Make someone else play the crazy terrorist that is possessed by Justice. Or at the very least what others have said, let us see him decide to do this "joining" and why he chose to and see him have the conflict that could drive him to blow up the chantry. If killing the Grand Cleric was his real goal, why not just kill her? Killing innocents seeking succor in the chantry doesn't make his cause valid.

[The Angry One]

maegi46 wrote...

Anders should have stayed dead and a new character should have taken his place here. Make someone else play the crazy terrorist that is possessed by Justice. Or at the very least what others have said, let us see him decide to do this "joining" and why he chose to and see him have the conflict that could drive him to blow up the chantry. If killing the Grand Cleric was his real goal, why not just kill her? Killing innocents seeking succor in the chantry doesn't make his cause valid.

Well, why does any terrorist use bombs instead of assassination?
Attention.

[Ingu]

I can understand the direction Anders went in, and I think his involvement with Justice/Vegeance explains his actions pretty well. My issue isn't with the writing but so much with the execution, in particular the voice actor change. Having 'known' what the old Anders was like I spent so much of my time desperately wanting to see any hint of that side of him again. But with the new voice actor it's like he lost everything that linked him to the old Anders, the personality change was already drastic enough, but now even when he was making the same jokes it sort of rang hollow... with this new voice actor Anders had no hint of the charm or snarkiness that made him so lovable before. His comedic moments felt forced and his sentimental moments more pathetic and melodramatic than moving. The first time I saw the romance scene I was laughing. (Though it became touching later on when I was able to properly enter a fangirl mood...) He was always sad, or angry, or indignant, and often downright nasty... I missed that  Anders who had the strength to be cheerful and optimistic, which didn't nearly come across to me this time. Granted he's changed, but that underlying essence should still be identifiable at the very least.

This was made even more apparant for me individually when I went onto Dragon Age wiki and laughed more -reading- his dialogue than I did when I listened. Writing, I can live with, that voice direction however... >_>

Modifié par Ingu, 24 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

The Angry One wrote...

maegi46 wrote...

Anders should have stayed dead and a new character should have taken his place here. Make someone else play the crazy terrorist that is possessed by Justice. Or at the very least what others have said, let us see him decide to do this "joining" and why he chose to and see him have the conflict that could drive him to blow up the chantry. If killing the Grand Cleric was his real goal, why not just kill her? Killing innocents seeking succor in the chantry doesn't make his cause valid.

Well, why does any terrorist use bombs instead of assassination?
Attention.

Not neccessarily.  Assassination is harder; an individual target may be harder to get too so they go after a public place; or depending on the ideology, just causing murder and mayhem of innocents is the goal.  Attention is just a bonus for your cause.

Ander's bitterness makes sense; as does his character arc to doing something drastic.  However, blowing up the chantry was stupid.  It doesn't make sense.  Yes, he was full of self loathing and guilt; he had almost killed the girl he saved; so he decides to blow up a building full of neutral innocents..thereby bringing the wrath of the templars on the people he feels are being exploited?  No, that won't do.  That's just sloppy.  Anders would cheerfully burn down a templar barracks or put a live badger up Meredith's templar dress but blowing up a church and dropping the hammer on the people he's trying to protect?   It's inconsistent and insane.  It's out of character.  It just annoyed me because it was so far out from what I would have expected him to do.

[TEWR]

frustratemyself wrote...

Of course Anders is different in DA2 than he was in Awakenings, a lot has happened in between.

Merging with Justice caused a change in both of them. They're not 2 seperate personalities anymore, they have merged and become something else all together. When that happened strengths, weaknesses and opinions from both personalities were apparently magnified in unexpected ways.

Also some of the things Anders saw as a Grey Warden would have had an effect. Look at how cold the Wardens are that you meet. Get the job done at any cost. For a compassionate (if a bit selfish) person like Anders was in Awakenings to be faced with that on a daily basis would be difficult. Even the most optimistic person can change if beaten down enough.

And everyone has their breaking point. You either implode or explode. Anders exploded.

Technically..... the Chantry exploded

*looks around*

What? Too soon?

[Apostian]

I always just figured that the reason he was even in DA2 was because he was liked in Awakening. So they stuck him in this game, and got rid of a lot of the reason he was liked in the first place.

So if you wanted to take him in a different direction, then why use Anders at all?

[NedPepper]

What I'm seeing here is the usual "nostalgia" versus "progress". I personally LOVE that they took Anders and progressed him. The reason we feel so betrayed is that we like Anders. For me, it's heartbreaking. If it had been Merril, we wouldn't have gotten this response.

Now, imagine if it was Morrigan! That would have been something. But honestly, it worked the best WITH Anders. Morrigan couldn't be bothered. She has no pity for mages trying to live in a world that hates them and allows themselves to be rounded up and put into prisons.

I love where they went with Anders. And I just played Awakenings and consider myself a good judge of charaterization. It's not "a new character with the same name." Anders is stilll there, particularly in Act One. And, again, you can't forget the Justice factor. There are two personas battling for control over the body of one mage and it's become severly entangled. I think it's cool writing, personally. Anders makes DA:2 that much better.

My only BUT is that they should have kept the same voice actor. But that may have been one of those business things that we will never know about. I'd love to know if Gaider CHOSE to find a new voice actor for creative reasons or it was something beyond his control.

[Vanaer]

Anders lived up to his name... Google Translate Anders from Dutch -> English.

[Kartikeya]

nedpepper wrote...

What I'm seeing here is the usual "nostalgia" versus "progress". I personally LOVE that they took Anders and progressed him. The reason we feel so betrayed is that we like Anders. For me, it's heartbreaking. If it had been Merril, we wouldn't have gotten this response.

Now, imagine if it was Morrigan! That would have been something. But honestly, it worked the best WITH Anders. Morrigan couldn't be bothered. She has no pity for mages trying to live in a world that hates them and allows themselves to be rounded up and put into prisons.

I love where they went with Anders. And I just played Awakenings and consider myself a good judge of charaterization. It's not "a new character with the same name." Anders is stilll there, particularly in Act One. And, again, you can't forget the Justice factor. There are two personas battling for control over the body of one mage and it's become severly entangled. I think it's cool writing, personally. Anders makes DA:2 that much better.

My only BUT is that they should have kept the same voice actor. But that may have been one of those business things that we will never know about. I'd love to know if Gaider CHOSE to find a new voice actor for creative reasons or it was something beyond his control.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. It reminds me of another game whose sequel took character growth in a negative (for the character) direction. There are people who swear up and down on those forums that this is a total travesty and completely unbelievable that someone who has gone through an awful lot of terrible things could, heaven forbid, change.

I completely sympathize with people who were super attached to the Awakenings Anders and are sad that his character changed in this way. I can't really comprehend the claim that this couldn't possibly be a logical character progression, because it seems to disregard all the things that have happened to make him this way.

[Naliamegod]

god dammit anders wrote...

Exactly! Hating Anders because of who he became, whether he allowed it or it was in inevitable spiral, is what makes the writing of his character so good! The ability to make the player feel something even if it isn't a nice feeling. For those who felt betrayed, it means there was something to betray. You were invested. He mattered, the romance/friendship/rivalmance mattered. And that is the point of RPG games where NPC's require interaction. It's to make you feel something, to make you invest, to make them matter to you.


And they did that. Bravo.

I hated Anders because I find him a despicable selfish character whose writing in the game makes it impossible to sympathize with.  This is fine if its a "guy-you-love-to-hate" persona (Bishop from NWN2 is a good example) but I got the impression was that Anders was suppose to be a fallen hero and/or well-intentioned extremists.  He comes off as neither in the end.  I felt "betrayed" but not by Anders, but by the writing of the game for going with what seemed like a "player punch" for the sakes of having one.