260 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

one of the reasons I think that they changed his VA was because the Awakenings VA also voiced Cullen.

[PSUHammer]

Its not that I don't like his character in DA2, I did...thought it was well written and played. It was just very jarringly different that it might as well been an entirely new character. There was nothing to show his descent, if you will. I think the new voice actor had something to do with it...

[Undead Union]

I think Anders was the Alistair people who didn't have him wanted. He was far too much like the wisecracking ex-Templar, and not more like an independent being. In Dragon Age 2, he is extremely complex. Instead of joking 24/7, he now has some serious things to contemplate. 

I found him to be an excellent team mate and, quite frankly, his actions at the end of the game really defined him as a memorable character. If you think that it was crazy, if you think that it was sociopathic, I don't think you're getting the full picture. Yes, to some extent it was a bit convoluted, but Anders had a real purpose. 

[Miashi]

When you listen to Anders banter with Justice in awakenings, the way he turns out makes a lot of sense. Anders is a cynic passive-agressive mage, and Justice comes and say "Why do you not strike a blow to your oppressors, ensure this can do this to no one else".

Anders - Justice banter (in awakenings) : http://www.youtube.c...T1P1bEA#t=7m43s

[maegi46]

Ok after reading this thread in it's entirety and rethinking my stance, I'd like to apologize for my initial post, or at least some of it. It's well written, the character is certainly "deep" and adds to the story of DA2. I'm going to have to concur with many that say it's mainly the change in VAs that makes it so hard to swallow. We got used to Greg Ellis' portrayal of who Anders is and I'm not saying the new VA does a bad job, it's just not the Anders we all came to know.

Justice has the same VA as he did in Awakenings, only Anders was changed and I can't understand why since the same VA does Cullen. Don't try to say that is the reason because we all know that several VAs do multiple parts in the DA world and a damn good job they do as well.

[TheRealJayDee]

maegi46 wrote...

Justice has the same VA as he did in Awakenings, only Anders was changed and I can't understand why since the same VA does Cullen. Don't try to say that is the reason because we all know that several VAs do multiple parts in the DA world and a damn good job they do as well.

Have we heard any explanation as to why they changed the VA? I'd really like to know...

[Naliamegod]

Hammer6767 wrote...
 There was nothing to show his descent, if you will.

I think that is the biggest problem.  We're just shown Anders at random intervals in his life and never really see the tragic decline.  If they spent more time on him, emphasizing his decreasing sanity, then the fallen hero motif might have actually worked.  As of right now, I don't think it really works as written in the game.

[Harcken]

I really really really miss old Anders . Wouldn't it have been much better just to give us a new psychotic mage character than butcher a TRUE "old favorite."

[Gr8pillock]

So, I gotta throw my two cents in. It's a moral imperative.

I will be completely honest, I did love Anders in Awakenings and I was disappointed in him in DA2, but his character choices have a basis, I don't believe they were taken out of the blue. Were he completely intolerable and flat as a character, I wouldn't have felt a pang of misery the play through where I actually killed him. I reloaded and unkilled him immediately and not just because I romanced him in the first play through.

I think as a result of his agenda, some of his layers were lost to the player. We didn't get to see him outside of that agenda (which might have been more possible with greater character interaction throughout the game in general), so he felt almost unilateral in his purpose. But then again...terrorists are seen as pretty unilateral as a whole so maybe that was the direction they were going for.

As far as being disappointed. yes, maybe a little. But am I disappointed simply because the character was hollow or because the character's actions annihilated me in a manner that could only have been done with me invested in him? I'd say the latter, even if I hate to admit it.

Though, let's be real...the fact that this thread exists at all is a sign that I'm not the only one who was invested and therefore troubled by how his arc turned out. Some stories don't have happy endings. :/

[IncendiarySheep]

I liked Anders in Awakenings.  He was funny, and kind of charming, and added levity to what was a pretty dry and serious story.  But I love Anders in DA2.  He's so much a deeper character, and his story was, for me, the most compelling of all the companions (Isabella's being the most fun...).

I can understand why so many people have reacted so badly to the bombing of the Chantry.  I have no idea whether Bioware intended to evoke 9/11 (although the imagery would suggest they did), but that is the inevitable comparison.  If you see Ander's actions as comparative to a 9/11 terrorist, then of course you cannot sympathise with him in any way.  It's quite natural to assume he is simply selfish and evil. But I personally don't the actions of Anders and those of real life 9/11 or London bombers as even remotely comparable. 

Anders is a free spirit who has spent most his life as a slave.  He’s known other slaves who have been raped, beaten, or effectively slain (made tranquil).  At least one of these is his best friend/lover.  He eventually escapes
one form of slavery (the Circle) only by signing up to another (the Wardens).  He helps save the Wardens, but he’s still not trusted for who he is.  He flees to the 'Free' Marchers, only to find it even worse than Feraldan.  He’s moved by the plight of the refugees, and sets up a free clinic in the city. He is a force for good.  Yet still the templars come sniffing around, determined to catch, completely uncaring that in doing so they will deprive the weakest people in the city of the only medical care they can get.   This is the Chantry to Anders: a fanatical religious organisation that has let its hatred and paranoia of mages trump every other tenant of its doctrine. 

None of this does the Chantry object to.  Not even a little bit.  The High Cleric isn't saintly.  She's a fanatical pacifist, an appeaser, who favours peace over fairness, justice, freedom and just about everything else.  Granted, she’s still better than those in the Chantry who want to wipe out mages for being who they are, but does anyone have any doubt that she would have sat back while Meredith implemented the right of annulment, convinced that had the Maker disapproved, he would have intervened?  She’s a grant example of how evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

The Chantry is not the same as an office block, a hotel, or a bunch of innocent commuters.  The Chantry is a source of political and military power (it trains the templars). It is not subject to control by kings (the talk with Alistair makes that clear).  It is not democratic and cannot be changed through the ballot box.  There is no United Nations or World Court or even NATO to oversight it.  There is no mass media to argue the case peacefully.  The Chantry will be there – rigid, unyielding, and filled with undoubtedly kind but dangerously ignorant people like Elthina until something radical is done.

I’m not suggesting here that blowing up the Chantry was the right thing to do.  Personally, it seems rather stupid ... what could possibly have possessed Justice/Anders to think blowing it would help mages I don’t know.  But I think Anders’ frustration, desperation and eventual explosion are completely understandable, and consistent with his
character.  I hope it does start a war that leads to a reformation in what is clearly a very dated religion.

Anyway, congrats Bioware for what I think was a heck of a ride with one of the most intense, well drawn character I’ve ever had the pleasure of roleplaying with.

Modifié par IncendiarySheep, 26 mars 2011 - 05:34 .

[ShrinkingFish]

David Gaider wrote...

And he changed so much in that first year because he was possessed by Justice, an event that obviously was not replicated afterwards. And I would say that he did indeed change over the course of the game. Jennifer did a fantastic job with him.

I agree so much it hurts. The difference between Act I Anders and Act III Anders was so incredibly intense that it made me baulk. I mean that was one of the first times I've seen a character actually legitimately change over time within the context of a video game. The other times, of course, being with the changes that occured with each of the characters as time went on.

I was seriously staggered by how well each of the characters, and especially the companions, were written and Anders was definitely my favorite. I mean, I haven't come to expect that quality of work outside of literary works, letterlone in video games.

Final Point: Brilliant. Loved it. Keep doin what you're doin. You're making the world of video games a better place.

[Addai]

Boy, playing "Justice" again is quite different when you know what's coming.  On my first game  I naively thought there was a potion. Maybe it was because I had been hoping so much that we'd be able to exorcise him, but replaying it I see it's also because Anders is so convincing with all his "it was unnatural, I see that now." And egad, all the foreshadowing. How I never saw it before I have no idea.

It really pisses me off. So duplicitous. Pah!

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[ShrinkingFish]

Addai67 wrote...

Boy, playing "Justice" again is quite different when you know what's coming.  On my first game  I naively thought there was a potion. Maybe it was because I had been hoping so much that we'd be able to exorcise him, but replaying it I see it's also because Anders is so convincing with all his "it was unnatural, I see that now." And egad, all the foreshadowing. How I never saw it before I have no idea.

It really pisses me off. So duplicitous. Pah!

Oooo, I KNOW!!!

He actually LIED!! Haha! I love it!

[greckoboy]

I like the new Anders. He's not as funny but his character fits better with the story in DA2 and his role in it. The old Anders was a slacker and would not have bothered making himself into a leader and the new Anders would organize a revolt in his old circle rather than running away everytime. Old Anders in DA2 would not have made sense. But i think it would have been better to use a new character. His character change is so jarring that i don't see any resemblance apart from the hair (and i agree that the VA change played a big role in this).

The reasoning on how he changes seem a bit forced and not too consistent. I don't know why he has to become a spirit healer just because he merged with a spirit. Justice certainly didn't possess healing powers. And if i remember correctly Justice was a stern disciplinarian, and if you add that influence to the smart-mouthed Anders who flirts openly with both Velanna and the templar who captures him everytime he escapes, you get...not Anders in DA2. Of course my reasoning isn't flawless but you must admit that it's a bit forced to attribute his change in character all to the merging with Justice.

In DA2 he also mentions the hard life he had in the circle and how he and Karl found relief in each other's company...but then why no mention of Karl in Awakening? Why is Karl not escaping with Anders all those times? If life was really that hard in the circle, would Anders really be the joking sort in DAA, and would he be so careless as to flirt with his templar captor instead of steeling himself for the punishment? How could he have escaped so many times without the templars finally deciding to kill him?

Oh and i remember Anders burning darkspawn with a fire spell in his introductory sequence in DAA. I guess he forgets all his spells after merging with Justice? Everything can be explained away whether using the merging with Justice and "oh, Anders could flirt with his templar captor because he was a brave dude" and "oh, Anders didn't want to bother the Hero of Ferelden by bringing up Karl and he didn't flirt with guys in DAA the same way he did with women because he could tell that they weren't interested". But there reaches a point where it just feels unreal.

I guess this wouldn't have happened if Bioware had envisioned Ander's role in DA2 back when they were making DAA. Better luck next time, i suppose.

But before people start to think that i'm accusing Bioware of screwing up DA2's companions, I must say that i actually love the new companion system. I like how they develop and how they have homes or hang-out areas, i.e. they have their own lives for once. And you can't start talking to them, say all the right things, give a few gifts and then sleep with them on the same day like with Morrigan. A big improvement over DAO. Just be careful when recycling characters. People didn't like Oghren being the recycled character in DAA, but at least his recycling was done without jarring character changes.

[Custodire]

I liked the changes. In Awakening he was too much like a magical Alistair.

More importantly to me, it was important to see a character follow through with their plans, even if I didn't agree with them. I felt like there was a story evolving parallel to mine, which gave a wonderful sense that my companions are special, intelligent people capable of achieving big things (unlike Merril, who couldn't even fix a bloody mirror).

[sakera]

I will agree that Anders changed A LOT from Awakening to DA II, maybe a little more background on what brought about the change would have been nice.

I can understand why he thought destroying the Chantry was the right thing to do, even though I vehemently disagree with it - so much in fact that when I got to that point and had romanced him & helped him (unknowingly) arrange it all - that I went back to the save I had for right before I met him & restarted - keeping him at an arm's distance this time - he will still blow up the Chantry of course, but hopefully my character won't have to help him.

Oddly enough, this time around has brought about a lot of changes. Getting quests I didn't receive the first time through and now all my family is dead - knew I should never have taken Carver into the Deep Roads - stupid stupid stupid -- oh well, live & learn!!

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

Boy, playing "Justice" again is quite different when you know what's coming.  On my first game  I naively thought there was a potion. Maybe it was because I had been hoping so much that we'd be able to exorcise him, but replaying it I see it's also because Anders is so convincing with all his "it was unnatural, I see that now." And egad, all the foreshadowing. How I never saw it before I have no idea.

It really pisses me off. So duplicitous. Pah!

When the sequence of the Chantry nuke about to go off was playing i was sitting there numb and kinda thinking in small letters "but i thought you just went there to steal something. like a finger bone of some dead prophet. or some holy water maybe. not. that. what. the. ****. anders.'

in this sense i suppose the writing was HUGE SUCCESS.

[Mikka-chan]

Playing straight from Awakenings with Anders and Justice actually proved interesting to me. Anders was a lot more bitter then I remembered. Time had swallowed some of my memories of it: with the ever charming V (who is as bitter and harsh as ever) and even Nate (who is happy to switch from Hero-loathing to self-loathing at a moment's notice), Anders' bitterness isn't as in your face, and he hid it behind humor (which, honestly, we should be used to- both Ali and Zev did that as well, although Zev was hiding more 'suicide wish' then 'bitterness', I guess). Still, he makes it very obvious that he Does Not Like The Circle. Oh, sure, he frames his

Also, I think it's worth noting that he does change quite a bit, actually. See him banter with Isa or Varric in the first act (heck, any companions but Fenris and Merill work). There's a lot of Awakening's Anders in his jokes there. Then see him banter with them in the third act- he can't even make jokes about different ways he wants Templars to die, he just wants them to *die*. He's become completely consumed by his obsession with the situation with Kirkwall.

And I do see his point. The situation in Kirkwall was intolerable, and honestly, the Chantry Head had just as heavy part of the blame as Meredith and Orsino did. Sitting and covering your ears and claiming it'll all be just fine will not lead things to be just fine. She should have stepped in long ago: that's party of the Chantries duties.

That doesn't mean she should have died, or that Anders was at all correct. It just means the situation was extremely frustrating and stupid by all involved.

[Masako52]

maegi46 wrote...

He was a great character in Awakenings. Funny, spirited. Loved WOMEN. Not crazy or any terrorist tendencies. He wanted freedom yes and he got that by joining the Grey Wardens. At least in my game he did. He was a trusted friend and someone you could depend on with your life. He was not joined with Justice. Justice possessed a dead grey warden...

Then in DA2 his voice is changed, the writer is changed and his character is a direct 180 from what he used to be. Now he's pyschotic , possessed and gay. A terrorist incident waiting to happen. Not amused and not happy with the changes at all. Thoughts?

Oh my god. I would've sympathized about the personality change, but then you decided to be homophobic and offensive as hell. Thanks for that.

BISEXUAL MEANS YOU CAN LIKE EITHER GENDER. Get it through your head! AND... being gay does NOT make you a worse character.

[Kaynos1972]

I was shocked when he kissed my male Hawke when i was just trying to be friend with him and was truely mad when i saw what he did at the end of the game. But i could'nt get myself to kill him.

[Masako52]

Kaynos1972 wrote...

I was shocked when he kissed my male Hawke when i was just trying to be friend with him and was truely mad when i saw what he did at the end of the game. But i could'nt get myself to kill him.

He only kisses you if you make the Flirtation options (which are clearly marked with the heart). You still have your options of Diplomatic, Charming and Aggressive, which are non-romantic.

And seriously, same-gender kissing? Not a bad thing. Just break off the romance and move on.

[PlumPaul93]

Masako52 wrote...

Kaynos1972 wrote...

I was shocked when he kissed my male Hawke when i was just trying to be friend with him and was truely mad when i saw what he did at the end of the game. But i could'nt get myself to kill him.

He only kisses you if you make the Flirtation options (which are clearly marked with the heart). You still have your options of Diplomatic, Charming and Aggressive, which are non-romantic.

And seriously, same-gender kissing? Not a bad thing. Just break off the romance and move on.

well I'd say its a bad thing if you don't want it . But anyway respect that your gay/lesbian(if your a chick), but you need to chill whenever some people say gay or mention that as a problem regarding anders, you'll feel a lot less annoyed with these forums if you do. Personally I don't like that hes a sociopath I would understand him being gay/bi if he actually showed signs of that in awakening.

[Kaynos1972]

Masako52 wrote...

Kaynos1972 wrote...

I was shocked when he kissed my male Hawke when i was just trying to be friend with him and was truely mad when i saw what he did at the end of the game. But i could'nt get myself to kill him.

He only kisses you if you make the Flirtation options (which are clearly marked with the heart). You still have your options of Diplomatic, Charming and Aggressive, which are non-romantic.

And seriously, same-gender kissing? Not a bad thing. Just break off the romance and move on.

I dont have a problem with 2 chicks kissing each other but 2 man ... ewwww.. ...

[Denizen89]

Hmm. I thought Anders was an awesome character that I did not hate in DAA. In DA 2 however his witty humor has MOSTLY been wiped away. Being a writer I notice this. But another funny thing is that being in the circle he would have known joining justice would have been a bad idea. I don't think he would have done it even if it was helping a friend that was a good spirit nor if he saw the injustice mages suffered. But still even with the change of character it was a good thing they did. Just should have been a different character.

[Custodire]

Merril building the Eluvian, Aveline leading the Guard's efforts to protect the citizenry from becoming collateral damage,Bethany taking charge of the Circle. I only wish all the companions had endgames as major as Anders'.

A question for those who say that Anders should have known that joining with Justice was a bad idea: didn't Wynne do much the same thing?

Modifié par Custodire, 27 mars 2011 - 04:17 .