168 réponses à ce sujet

[madisoncb15]

Nimrodell wrote...

The entire story is settled in Kirkwall and Free Marches... don't you think it would have been strange to have areas that are settled in one city and around it as always different. Many things happen on Wounded Coast, its beaches and caves... it would be strange indeed to constantly have change in surroundings even tho u r actually in the same place (even Varric comments on it when u return to Wounded Coast for millionth time). Hawke is not traveler as your Warden - Hawke is not visiting places like Cadash thaig or Orzammar, or Denerim etc... so well, it actually works like in real life, my own city's been recycling surroundings for me for some 20 years now.

If it were the SAME PLACE that you were visiting time and time again, i'd understand as it wouldn't change much.  But what pissess me off is that Place A and Place B will have the exact same entrance point, have a different name (like Cave of Apostates and Treasure Cove), but yet have the EXACT same layout with the only difference being a single pathway blocked off.  There's no excuse for that. 

[Rafe34]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

Im waiting for the first reviews of ME3, Im definitly NOT preordering it. Maybe if it has some good reviews I will buy it 1-2 years later as a complete Ultimate Edition or much cheaper. Im not paying a full price for a short stripped "artfully" recycled game. Skyrim and Witcher 2 looks very promising for me and I dont think you can explore the whole game in 3-5 hours, because of recycled maps.

The Witcher 2 is definitely looking good. Mostly because CDProjekt is not afraid of tackling some pretty serious issues, and is even less afraid about using nudity when it's actually appropriate to do so, rather than using the American sensibility to make their game more kid-friendly, (even though half of most games that ever get an uproar is about killing things, the nude part that one could see in any PG-13 movie is what gets the US in an tizzy. See: Mass Effect 1 before it had even come out, lol).

Modifié par Rafe34, 22 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Johnsen1972]

CDProject is actually a young company not like Bioware. They still try to establish themselfs and create games with their hearts. Im happy to support them.

Bioware lost that attitude since DA2 and ME2. Its all about money now, DLC's , stripping of companion armor to sell them as DLC, recycling maps, less choices and atmosphere to reduce development costs. Im missing the love of making games for RPG players.

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 22 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[AloraKast]

IMO it all boils down to the fact that the game WAS rushed through the development cycle and out the door because [insert culprit's name] wanted to capitalize on the success of the Dragon Age franchise ASAP and the price was sacrificing the high quality that Bioware has been known for in their product.

Like I have said before on these forums, the rushed process can be seen/felt in nearly every aspect of the game. At nearly half the playtime of DA:O, I ended up paying more for less... of everything.

DA2 had its moments, there were some things I liked, but there are more things that I didn't like. But that's personal preference, I suppose you could say. Let's leave it at the fact that DA2 is NOT what I expected from a sequel to Dragon Age: Origins, nor even a full length game in the franchise. (Someone on the forum has pointed out that after finishing the game they felt like they just completed an ellaborate side-quest - a very apt way of putting it, IMO)

The fact that the development team for ME3 are taking their time (plus their previous track record with superb DLCs as opposed to the quality of the latter DLCs for Dragon Age) makes me optimistic. Only time will tell whether those feelings are justified. I will most likely either pre-order ME3 or purchase it within the first week (unless something very drastic and negative between now and the release date makes me re-evaluate that position). As for the remainder of the Dragon Age franchise... I shall be most cautious in the future and can only hope I will be able to resist the shiny pre-order bonuses (yes, a difficult thing for me to do, since I am a completionist, however the DA2 experience has taught me this very hard yet valuable lesson).

[Talisk]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

 Welcome to Dragon Age Light - where you pay the same for less.

You made me laugh, spill my Coke and then laugh some more.

ps: you owe me a coke zero j/k

[Reinveil]

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

[senjukannon]

I agree.

[neppakyo]

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

I approve.

[Talisk]

neppakyo wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

I approve.

I second that

[sairas]

Talisk wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

I approve.

I second that

+ and second some more

[GammaRayJim]

 I agree with the OP and it isn't just the environments that are recycled so to are the gang quest. Each act had 3 gangs to be defeated throughout the act. I find that to be silly, you would think as the years went by the people who form gangs would say hey this Hawke guy is killing everyone in gangs I'm moving to Starkhaven and starting a gang there it seems safer. 
And for those who say that recycling environments is common in these types of games and I am sure that you have way more experience than I...please tell me how many were recycled in DA:O. Cuz I don't seem to recall any. I recall returning to areas that were the same which is understandable but all the cave interiors were different as were the interiors of buildings and so on...

[Blazer 90]

Coming from the perspective of someone who actually IS a game level designer, I don't understand Bioware's decision to re-use entire areas 10+ times at all. Creating an atmosphere that works with the correct lighting, textures and materials is the most time consuming part of creating a playable environment. Since Bioware already has that work done, it would have taken simply a matter of hours to create another mansion, cave or warehouse by reusing all of the assets, minus the actual layout.

If they didn't have hours or money to spare, they should have scarified some of the weaker quests that did nothing for the story. I thought they already learned the quality over quantity lesson after Mass Effect 1?

[DTKT]

Blazer 90 wrote...

Coming from the perspective of someone who actually IS a game level designer, I don't understand Bioware's decision to re-use entire areas 10+ times at all. Creating an atmosphere that works with the correct lighting, textures and materials is the most time consuming part of creating a playable environment. Since Bioware already has that work done, it would have taken simply a matter of hours to create another mansion, cave or warehouse by reusing all of the assets, minus the actual layout.

If they didn't have hours or money to spare, they should have scarified some of the weaker quests that did nothing for the story. I thought they already learned the quality over quantity lesson after Mass Effect 1?

If they are still using tile sets, altering the actual layout probably wouldnt been very difficult. Seems priorities were elsewhere.

[Cody211282]

Ravenmyste wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

What? That's not true, there were at least 2 unique mansions in hightown.

One is DLC and the other you live in, and how does that make up for going into the same cave 30 times?

There is a DLC mansion? I am sure the Black Emporium is a store and Sebby lives in the Chantry.

The quest you do for him involves a unique mansion, sorta sad they put more time into the DLC areas then the actaul game.

wrong cody there is no dlc mansions
 there have been no DLC yet for dragonage2  if you got the sig edition you got the exiled prince for free. so no there is none and there are actully 3 unique mansions..

one is the dupis,harrimon, and hawke's mansion,

exiled prince is DLC, just go to the DLC page and you can see it there.

[P1NG]

Gotta love the fanbois at the start of the thread.

[Xerxes52]

acidproof wrote...

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd preorder another DA game. ME3 will probably the last Bioware made game I preorder. Honestly, I never thought I'd say that.

Pretty much. I think after maybe another playthrough or two I will be done with the Dragon Age universe.

ME3 will probably be the last game I preorder immediately, any other Bioware game after that will be on a "rent first" basis.

[WinterWolf101]

What made the recycled areas worse is that they closed off certain areas to make them feel different, and yet they don't update the map and you can see that the zone has been copy pasted. I mean bioware didn't even try to hide the fact that every single manor is the same! The game was pretty good, but the recycled areas and the enemies spawning in waves on top of my friggen head like teleporting ninjas kinda ruined it for me.

[Seblin]

Don't worry, the first DLC that will be released will be 3 NEW maps!

With 3 groups of ninja bandits to clear in each map and a clear waypoint marker with who to get a reward from once you have defeated them.

I am all giddy in anticipation.

[AtreiyaN7]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

Im waiting for the first reviews of ME3, Im definitly NOT preordering it. Maybe if it has some good reviews I will buy it 1-2 years later as a complete Ultimate Edition or much cheaper. Im not paying a full price for a short stripped "artfully" recycled game. Skyrim and Witcher 2 looks very promising for me and I dont think you can explore the whole game in 3-5 hours, because of recycled maps.

Have fun with those recycled dungeons Bethesda likes to use. Somehow I doubt that they suddenly shifted gears as far as random mines, etc. go. I anticipate that Mine #560,163 in Skyrim will probably be just like Mine #1 if it's anything like Oblivion. Then again, hell could always freeze over, in which case they might make actually make every single thing unique.

[Zelnaga]

No. What makes these recycles maps even worse is the layout.

Bioware was too lazy to even change the layout of the maps. That's lazy!

[Vali]

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

Completely agreed on all points. Do you mind if I use your quote here on my opening post?



@Johnsen
Thanks

[wowpwnslol]

Agree with OP. Recyling areas is pathetic, considering Diablo 2 , a 10+ year old game, had random dungeon generator.

[neppakyo]

Also seeing a lot of 'won't pre-order another Bioware game again, will wait and/or rent first' across the forums.. That can't be good for future titles.

I for one won't be pre-ordering/buying on release day another bioware game after ME3(Now, ME2 had an awesome story compared to DA2, and everything worked for me, unlike DA2, buggy as hell). I refuse to buy any DLC's for DA2 either. The game isn't worth it to invest more time and money into.

[sonsonthebia07]

It doesn't bother me as much as I thought it was going to, but I'm no fan. They should have at the very least have used different map structures. They could have kept the same exact textures and everything and just changed the passages up as well as the maps and it would have been much less as glaringly reused to me.

[Reinveil]

Vali wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

Completely agreed on all points. Do you mind if I use your quote here on my opening post?



@Johnsen
Thanks

Not at all.