168 réponses à ce sujet

[Vali]

Thanks Reinveil.

I'm aware that not everyone is disgusted with the amount of recycling, whether it's because they appreciate the other aspects of the game more, or it is not as important to them, etc, but the fact is that this severity of recycled content is lazy and careless at best, and fradulent at worst. It is not something which should be acceptable in games in general, let alone games by Bioware.

Is it unfair to hold Bioware to a higher standard? No, because that's how companies improve. They were beyond lazy in this game, and it showed. Fans should, in the least, acknowledge this if not outright criticize it.

Most games recycle some things to some extents, sure. It didn't ruin ME1. It didn't ruin DAO.

DA2 recycled 99% of its environmental content, and this ruined the game for a huge number of people.

[neppakyo]

Vali wrote...

Thanks Reinveil.

I'm aware that not everyone is disgusted with the amount of recycling, whether it's because they appreciate the other aspects of the game more, or it is not as important to them, etc, but the fact is that this severity of recycled content is lazy and careless at best, and fradulent at worst. It is not something which should be acceptable in games in general, let alone games by Bioware.

Is it unfair to hold Bioware to a higher standard? No, because that's how companies improve. They were beyond lazy in this game, and it showed. Fans should, in the least, acknowledge this if not outright criticize it.

Most games recycle some things to some extents, sure. It didn't ruin ME1. It didn't ruin DAO.

DA2 recycled 99% of its environmental content, and this ruined the game for a huge number of people.

I approve. Good points!

[DTKT]

Vali wrote...

Thanks Reinveil.

I'm aware that not everyone is disgusted with the amount of recycling, whether it's because they appreciate the other aspects of the game more, or it is not as important to them, etc, but the fact is that this severity of recycled content is lazy and careless at best, and fradulent at worst. It is not something which should be acceptable in games in general, let alone games by Bioware.

Is it unfair to hold Bioware to a higher standard? No, because that's how companies improve. They were beyond lazy in this game, and it showed. Fans should, in the least, acknowledge this if not outright criticize it.

Most games recycle some things to some extents, sure. It didn't ruin ME1. It didn't ruin DAO.

DA2 recycled 99% of its environmental content, and this ruined the game for a huge number of people.

I would give you a bear hug but I'm busy eating a penguin.

Very good post.

[ljbx349]

I found the recycling to be lame as well, and it definitely impacted the experience; but despite that, I enjoyed the other aspects of the game enough to let it go.

When I entered recycled area again for the umpteenth time, I thought "sigh, this map again" followed by "yay stuff to kill!" and "Anders get off your lazy arse and HEAL ME!"

[Rann]

I had to laugh when I ran through a cavern in Sundermount to get the final item for a quest (the items could be dealt with in any order), then was told to go the Darkside to finish the quest off, which I immediately did -- and found myself in a cavern identical to the one I'd just left, though separated by (presumably) miles. The Bad Guys™ clearly have been ordering modular housing, or perhaps they just share decorating tips.

I understand recycling -- for random encounters, for example, it's almost unavoidable -- but geez, this game takes it to a whole new level. (I suppose I should appreciate that there are a lot of quests I can do, but I mean, really!)

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Playing the player made DAO module 'Confederacy of Malkuth' opened my eyes to how they reused maps in Origins. Bascially all random forest type encoutners took place on the same map. Essentially it was one massive forest, broken up into small chunks and 'redecorated'.

The difference between this and what DA2 did was that DA2 did it for every encounter, and they used the entire map each time, just blocking off unwanted rooms or sections. It was basically one small tunnel map. A couple of times I thought they had made a new map but nope, same layout, just a different look. Most of the time they didn't even bother making it look different.

[Ricvenart]

Payed double for less, I preordered the Delux verion on steam for 25/30£ I think it was but knowing my current pc (old one died have one made of spare parts when the old one just manage DA:o ) I pre ordered the signiture edition from game for xbox so £50 for what is so much less game.
And too the first couple of repliers the only trolls I see here are you, swearing and being a bully to valid points.
Still I probally dont feel half as betrayed as you I tried to avoid following development not to make the wait seem so long, but I done that for Fable III so I know what its like to read outright lies. then have them turn round and go on a technicallity they didnt actually say that. It's lower then low and I dont know why companies keep doing it if they plan to keep theyre fans and make more, it wont happen if you become known for being decietful really. What ever happened to good PR.

[AloraKast]

Reinveil wrote...

These types of threads continue to blow my mind for a number of reasons:

1.) The defenders that immediately chime in with "but the whole game takes place in a city, of course the environments repeat!" How they can not understand that critics are talking about the interiors/dungeons and not the city locations is mind-boggling - did you guys really go through the entire game not noticing that every single house, mansion, tunnel, and basement is the exact same map? Were you huffing glue while you were playing?

2.) The defenders that counter with "yeah, but x game reused maps too!" You understand that by using this argument, you're basically conceding the point, yes? And that it makes you look like you have some sort of buyer's remorse/denial issue? Did you not learn as a child that "yeah but he did it too" isn't a valid defense? Many games reuse assets, but if you think the kind of lazy design that permeates DAII is an industry standard, I don't think you play very many games.

3.) The defenders that claim trolling or elitism. All AAA games face a certain amount of backlash after release, something I'm sure Bioware knows well. However, it's been especially bad for DAII. If you'd take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "LALALALALALALA" for a moment, you'd notice that an awful lot of people are talking about the same issues...almost as if the criticism is...gasp...valid! Even weirder are the folks that make claims that the detractors hate Bioware or are "trying to take them down" or ruin their reputation. You know, for the hell of it ("Yeah, I had a good time with Dragon Age...but Bioware's had it too good, we need to do something about this"). Did it not cross their minds that perhaps we just want more than a half-assed, lazy effort for $60? Especially from a developer we know is capable of better?

How any consumer can try and justify paying more for less, regardless of the reason, is beyond my realm of understanding. It's okay to admit to yourself that maybe, just maybe, the game is flawed and there is room for improvement. There's nothing wrong with criticism, so long as it's kept civil and constructive.

Reinveil...

I  you!

[zx2781]

I agree. Game breaker for me. My least favorite BioWare game on all levels.

[terrordactyl1]

I really like DA2, but I have to admit that the recycled maps are it's achilles heel.

[terrordactyl1]

It's not a new problem though is it? Oblivion and Fallout were full of recycled caves, buildings, train tunnels etc.

[Tennan]

terrordactyl1 wrote...

It's not a new problem though is it? Oblivion and Fallout were full of recycled caves, buildings, train tunnels etc.

The defense is covered in the OP, but at least Oblivion and Fallout took common pieces and assembled them into new shapes.  So every time you enter a cave, it may look the same, but the layout is different and you don't know what's around the corner or which way you have to go.

DA2 gives you the same dungeon every single time.  Some sections may be blocked off (not that the minimap every indicates this), but by the end you should be able to know the exact route you'll have to take, and exactly where items will be the second you set foot in an area.

Modifié par Tennan, 23 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[xYOSSARIANx]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

.....remember the camp in DA:O? It never actually changed, so frankly, bringing that up as some kind an issue is ridiculous.

:happy::happy::happy::happy:

Worst justification for recycled enviroments in DA2  EVAH!!!

[Talon2000uk]

Look its pretty simple

Dragon Age Origins = 6 years

Dragon Age 2 = 18 months

They had to do what they could in the time they had. I would imagine the game
designers didn't want to release a rushed piece of buggy crap., they just had a
designed window of 18 month imposed on them by their owners EA. 

Bioware have made the best game they could in the time allotted. Personally I
think its a fun story with good characters, However its painfully obvious the
time pressure they were under. Hence the recyling of areas. Am I defending
Bioware, not really, they don't really exist any more to defend, They are EA
now and the great game developer house ceased to exists the day they were
swallowed by EA.

Its a shame but with the EA mindset they are not gona spend 6 years making a
great MMO any more. With luck the Next DA will have more time spent on it and
EA will learn from their mistakes this time. 

Of cause if DA2 still sells by the bucket load, despite all the bad reviews and
bad word of mouth then don't expect things to change.

 

Modifié par Talon2000uk, 23 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[Reinveil]

xYOSSARIANx wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

.....remember the camp in DA:O? It never actually changed, so frankly, bringing that up as some kind an issue is ridiculous.

:happy::happy::happy::happy:

Worst justification for recycled enviroments in DA2  EVAH!!!

Yeah, that actually made my brain hurt.

[Lioncourt87]

Yes the dungeons were a pain, like I've stressed before, but so much made up for it. But when you mention these recycled dungeons and I can't but feel a bit confounded why you didn't mention some of the recycled enemies from the DLC, such as the Varterral and the 'so-called' Hulking Orsono (as my guide describes him) which was actually the Harvester, a completely different kettle of fish. I was expecting an uuber cool Abomination but instead I get the recycled Harvester. I was a little dissapointed in that. And the Varterral, it stands to reason why I'd fight one, but to fight two and in the exact recycled location in the same spot made me sigh.

[Corrupted333]

Talon2000uk wrote...

Look its pretty simple

Dragon Age Origins = 6 years

Dragon Age 2 = 18 months

They had to do what they could in the time they had. I would imagine the game
designers didn't want to release a rushed piece of buggy crap., they just had a
designed window of 18 month imposed on them by their owners EA. 

Bioware have made the best game they could in the time allotted. Personally I
think its a fun story with good characters, However its painfully obvious the
time pressure they were under. Hence the recyling of areas. Am I defending
Bioware, not really, they don't really exist any more to defend, They are EA
now and the great game developer house ceased to exists the day they were
swallowed by EA.

Its a shame but with the EA mindset they are not gona spend 6 years making a
great MMO any more. With luck the Next DA will have more time spent on it and
EA will learn from their mistakes this time. 

Of cause if DA2 still sells by the bucket load, despite all the bad reviews and
bad word of mouth then don't expect things to change.

 

Ouch...sad but true. The OP is true that Revielle is true..everything i agree with. I loved DAO. A friend of mine let me borrow it and when i was done i sat back and just said "Wow..". It was an amazing game. When i found out about DA2 i almost cra[[ed i was so pumped. I organized my bills so that when the game released i had money...yet something happened and the money fell through..so what did i do..i traded in Halo Reach and Call of Duty Black Ops. and i got DA2 for 7 bucks. Now the price tag might have been worth it but giving up 2 huge games like that ehhh i dont know. Ive pretty much thrown away the two biggest multiplayer games that i played with my homies, to sit alone and play a giant recycled mess..i just hope to god any future dlc is good cause now im stuck with this game and its growing on me lol cause it has to... Not like i can go back to the store and ask for my games back. Some little boy just picked them up for 30 bucks a pop haha...

[Jypcie]

I like the game alot. But after the first two hours the recycled sets got on my nerves.

[PoisonDagger]

I think everyone needs to be supportive about these topics i mean i know that just making a bunch of already posted topics does nothing but hopefully all these rants will get a little more attention from the devs..but the more i see less responses from them make me think how much bioware even cares, some attention would help.

Modifié par PoisonDagger, 23 mars 2011 - 08:13 .

[Taura-Tierno]

The recycling didn't ruin the game for me, but it was certainly its biggest fault, that needs to be fixed for future releases.

Honestly, just by adding a couple of more areas, things would've been a LOT better. I mean. Imagine one or two other "mines", one or two other "sewer tunnels", one or two other warehouses and one or two other mansions. If done right, that could've lead to very varied environments.

Some of the reuses were good. I didn't even realise that some were recycled until my second playthrough, because you entered from different places, the enemies were different, some even had different decorations that created another feeling. And you'd have access to different areas. That's a good way to reuse something. With a few more "blueprints", that could've lead to a much greater variety.

Other things that could have made it better would have been to introduce in-game reasons for the similarities. The different mines in the Wounded Coast, for instance. Couldn't those have been the same cave, for real? Only different parts of them. And maybe you'd run through the same parts at various occasions. Since they were in the same area, that would've felt realistic, and not at all strange. That would've been a really good way to reuse environments.

I really liked how they did the Blooming Rose, too. It had the same layout as many other mansions, yet it never bothered me (and it took a good while to realise it), because the decorations were all different and the general feeling was different, and it was used in another context. Also a good reuse.

So, I'm not opposed to recycling areas ... but they didn't handle it well at all in DA2. Biggest flaw of the game, like I said.

[Pyrate_d]

After replaying origins, it's staggering how much content that game has.

Origins had a "homemade" feel, where everything from the items (which often had little blurbs about their background) to the areas (which were practically all unique) felt like someone had actually sat down and designed them. DA2 throws this away, and just focuses on churning out as much chaff as possible with as little effort as possible. Everything is done to give the illusion of quality, without actually providing the quality.

I'm glad that some people see how short DA2 fell, but it's also scary to me that so many people in this thread and on this board are satisfied. I don't think that Bioware is artistically bankrupt, but they're in the business of making money. If people can accept a game like DA2, which dropped all the good things about its predecessor, what's to stop them from going further?

All I can say is PLEASE don't rush DA3. If reviews don't say "this game is a lot more like origins" I just won't buy it.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

The recycled environments make some sense, seeing as you are literally going to the same spot in the game world.

I'm not very far in the game so I won't comment as to whether or not this was actually done, but I think having the areas change over the years (perhaps due to story events, perhaps simply due to the progression of time) would be one way to make them more interesting upon return visits. 

And of course, recycling interior areas for DIFFERENT places is something that I hope really isn't done.  (But sadly I believe it is, as now thinking back I do recall one house in the alienage being identical to MY house)

[Hrodric]

Talon2000uk wrote...

Look its pretty simple

Dragon Age Origins = 6 years

Dragon Age 2 = 18 months

They had to do what they could in the time they had. I would imagine the game
designers didn't want to release a rushed piece of buggy crap., they just had a
designed window of 18 month imposed on them by their owners EA. 

Bioware have made the best game they could in the time allotted. Personally I
think its a fun story with good characters, However its painfully obvious the
time pressure they were under. Hence the recyling of areas. Am I defending
Bioware, not really, they don't really exist any more to defend, They are EA
now and the great game developer house ceased to exists the day they were
swallowed by EA.

Its a shame but with the EA mindset they are not gona spend 6 years making a
great MMO any more. With luck the Next DA will have more time spent on it and
EA will learn from their mistakes this time. 

Of cause if DA2 still sells by the bucket load, despite all the bad reviews and
bad word of mouth then don't expect things to change.

 

^ This.

Modifié par Hrodric, 23 mars 2011 - 10:05 .

[ProdigalMaster]

Never ending repetition of areas, boring quest structure, and the constant respawning of enemies in nearly every skirmish have come in unison to kill any pleasure the story tries to deliver. I'm still struggling to complete the game. I've never had this sort of problem with Bioware games before, DA2 is actually painful to play. The side quests are especially painful, though even some companion and main quests seem to suffer from excessive filler and repetition. Examples?

1. Running around at night killing constantly respawning gang members in three parts of the city, and guess what? Next chapter you'll be running around killing three "other" gangs in those same parts of the city.

2. The mine side-quests: You clean out the mine in one chapter and convince workers to work. Next chapter you clean out the mine again, and after returning for your reward.... you learn that you have to clean it out...again. I haven't finished the following chapter yet, but thus far my character has been informed that the workers have been brutally killed, which probably means I need to clean out the mine again.

3. Amaranthine rebels side quest, and the first quest Sebastian sets you upon: Random groups of opponents you have to kill around the city, how awesome and creative. As if the damn gangs weren't enough.

4. Most quests, even some of the main ones boil down to: "Get Quest" ---> "Kill bunch of respawning enemies in area X" ------->"Get object X and return for reward/ return for reward/further story." Gameplay-wise they do not include anything to kindle the interest of the player apart from repetitive fights. I haven't even seen a single puzzle, riddle, or anything apart from filler combat this far into the game.

Modifié par ProdigalMaster, 23 mars 2011 - 10:31 .

[Nimrodell]

DariusKalera wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

The entire story is settled in Kirkwall and Free Marches... don't you think it would have been strange to have areas that are settled in one city and around it as always different. Many things happen on Wounded Coast, its beaches and caves... it would be strange indeed to constantly have change in surroundings even tho u r actually in the same place (even Varric comments on it when u return to Wounded Coast for millionth time). Hawke is not traveler as your Warden - Hawke is not visiting places like Cadash thaig or Orzammar, or Denerim etc... so well, it actually works like in real life, my own city's been recycling surroundings for me for some 20 years now.

While yes, it is only in one city, they could have done so much with that one city but didn't.

Take Athkatla from BGII for example.  A fairly large portion of the game takes place in that city but there is so much to see and do that you don't notice it as much.  Waukeen's Promenade "feels" totally different than the Bridge District, the Bridge district differs from the Docks, which is different from the Slums, etc.

This isn't counting the sewers, the areas beneath the sewers, hidden hideouts, and everything else that got crammed into there.  You had theives guilds, clerical orders, and a paladin order that you could join.

That city had far, far more depth to it than Kirkwall did.

As for your city, if it is fair sized, I can guarentee you that if you actively went out exploring you would find someplace new everyday. 

Hehe, actually I do explore things and environment, tis just I don't see this as so 'horrible' issue, been in mideval and even ancient Roman settlements, and as Vali mentioned in post before yours - even tho she/he doesn't believe it - they are not so much different, no different types of streets, and one actually needs to go from city to city to see the change in architecture, types of pavement, etc. Been in many caves too, most of 'em are dull places, resembling each other (dark, many cravices in stone walls, stalagmites and stalactites, no fancy passageways tho, there are snakes and nasty bugs lol), apart from Postoyina in Slovenia, but that cave is special in every way (they did good job with lightning too there).

As for realism, I'm not looking for one in the game, actually I was bothered with stupid doorways in caves, especially in Sundermount... I mean, those caves and ruins pre-date final clash between Tevinter and Arlathan, and kinda having those wooden stairs and doorways was stupid, cause tis wilderness and kinda those doorways and wooden stairs didn't agree with me, not like in Wounded Coast, where slavers and and smugglers are operating. Silly, isn't it? lol

With that post I was actually teasing a bit (not trolling - to be clear), 'cause honestly I don't see the reason for such drama over something that is not so different from DA:O when it comes to maps and side-quests - didn't notice much difference in random encounters DA:O maps nor when it comes to side qs... how many times I had to go to same Brecillian Forest areas in order to finish some side-q? And that's why I said the entire time you're actually in the same zone and one can't expect Wonders of Theads to reveal in maps... that doesn't mean they didn't recycle the maps, tis just I'm surprised players didn't get used to it in DA:O . Ah, well, maybe you're right, those dark allies in Denerim or the keeps (including Cousland one, Dark Wolf chain one or even Warden's Keep) were offering so many different maps... they weren't looking alike at all, , and the ruins, no Tevinter Byzantine archways, ornaments, carvings and statues and pathways, it was all very different... not to mention DA:O Deep Roads, ah those Deep Roads that sucked life out of my Wardens (well, I have to exclude Awakening Kal Hirol or DA:O Cadash Thaig from my 'trying to point out in nice way' list). Anyway, won't risk any more bashing, I'll just play again my Darkspawn Vanguard and kill Vynne again (oh that feels good indeed - the old cow is always going on my nerves with her finger waggling) and feel good... I was pissed at Blizzard when they forced my Death Knight to become reddemed and leave the Scourge... at least here, I got the same bloody map of Denerim but I got to kill Vynne, so BioWare and me are good :innocent: - no bashing yet.