89 réponses à ce sujet

[wizardryforever]

Something that has sparked my curiousity is how many people talk about how they modified their save game or tweaked the files or something like that to do something that is essentially cheating.  Things like giving themselves resources so they get instant gratification upon finding a research project, or giving themselves tons of Paragon or Renegade so they can pass all the difficult persuasion checks.  What's the appeal?  I mean, it essentially removes a layer of the challenge that the game offers.

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or trying to call people out here.  This is a single player game and everyone plays it differently, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the readiness people have to go outside of the game to address their issues with the game.

Are these mechanics so bad that the game is just unplayable without mucking about in the game's code?  I for one like the challenge of these mechanics (even the boring or tedious ones) because I find the game is already too easy.  A common response to an earnest question of many posters here is simply "use gibbed" or "modify the save files," like this is a perfectly acceptable solution and should be the first thing done.  I for one feel that these things should come as a last resort, or to fix gamebreakers.  Maybe I'm being irrational or silly, or maybe I just have a higher tolerance for tedium in my games than others, either way I would like to know why this is so common.

TL,DR: Why is modding saves and such so popular, instead of in-game solutions?

[Thepeak12]

Because after 4 playthroughs, mining gets repetitive and boring. I'd rather shoot people than mine for half an hour

[Almostfaceman]

wizardryforever wrote...

Something that has sparked my curiousity is how many people talk about how they modified their save game or tweaked the files or something like that to do something that is essentially cheating.  Things like giving themselves resources so they get instant gratification upon finding a research project, or giving themselves tons of Paragon or Renegade so they can pass all the difficult persuasion checks.  What's the appeal?  I mean, it essentially removes a layer of the challenge that the game offers.

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or trying to call people out here.  This is a single player game and everyone plays it differently, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the readiness people have to go outside of the game to address their issues with the game.

Are these mechanics so bad that the game is just unplayable without mucking about in the game's code?  I for one like the challenge of these mechanics (even the boring or tedious ones) because I find the game is already too easy.  A common response to an earnest question of many posters here is simply "use gibbed" or "modify the save files," like this is a perfectly acceptable solution and should be the first thing done.  I for one feel that these things should come as a last resort, or to fix gamebreakers.  Maybe I'm being irrational or silly, or maybe I just have a higher tolerance for tedium in my games than others, either way I would like to know why this is so common.

TL,DR: Why is modding saves and such so popular, instead of in-game solutions?

There are cheats out there for just about every video game ever made.  Cheating in Mass Effect 2 is not a unique experience.  It's common, period.

[JustinTR]

i appreciate the tldr....
The game is really long. And it is an rpg. Nothing connected to a leaderboard anywhere. So as it is an rpg, they can play it however they want i guess. And modding characters like legion into the game early on, you get to see dialogue you wouldnt normally see.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

wizardryforever wrote...

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?

Yes. Honestly, I just can't stand mining, it's horrible. Games are meant to be enjoyable experiences, they can often be very challenging, but they should never be boring. Mining in ME2 is possibly the most boring aspect of any game I've ever played, so if I can remove it and improve the overall quality of the game, I will.

EDIT: oh yes, mining also only does one thing - tests your patience. It requires incredibly little skill, no special items etc, it's just there to pad out the game.

Modifié par Captain_Obvious_au, 22 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Pwener2313]

I cheated to fix the game....

1. Used the talent glitch to max out all my abilities (70 skill points)

2. Used the Lazarus Station glitch to max out my Paragon/Renegades scores.

Cheating is fun!

[Gentleman Moogle]

Only time I cheated was to increase my paragade ranks in my second playthrough. And the only reason I did that was because of ME's pants-on-head-stupid method of determining whether or not paragade dialogue options are unlocked. It's not about how many points you have, it's about how many points you COULD have had. Pissed me right off, so I hacked my saved game and gave myself a buttload of paragon points to match how far paragon my Shep should have been.

[javierabegazo]

Let me explain why:

After 10 plus playthroughs of Mass Effect 2 on Insanity, here is a list of things that I NEVER want to do again

• hunt down every single PDA to hack it to afford all the upgrades
• scan planets  *SUPER IMPORTANT*
• add paragon/renegade scores to avoid having to meta game just to not get locked out of certain story paths
• have to wait till the end of the game to play with certain abilities evolved to certain stages
• have to pick certain classes just to play with certain weapons
• have to restart a new save just to mod my appearance, especially when certain colors from ME1 such as the biotic purple eyes have been taken out of the vanilla ME2 facial modding system.
• have to wait until certain late stages of the game just to get access to certain armor components
• having to deal with a shortage of ammo, (this is only if you like ME1's infinite ammo system)

Being able to mod things like that are a godsend, and have taken out all the tedium and lets me focus on the joy of combat and experimenting with different character builds, different squadmates,  different weapons, i.e. being able to use the Mattock Heavy Rifle with my infiltrator and still have the Widow sniper rifle, and geth plasma shotgun.

Modifié par javierabegazo, 22 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[Pwener2313]

Scanning planets is super important? I always do but.... huh......

Modifié par Pwener2313, 22 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[wizardryforever]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?

Yes. Honestly, I just can't stand mining, it's horrible. Games are meant to be enjoyable experiences, they can often be very challenging, but they should never be boring. Mining in ME2 is possibly the most boring aspect of any game I've ever played, so if I can remove it and improve the overall quality of the game, I will.

EDIT: oh yes, mining also only does one thing - tests your patience. It requires incredibly little skill, no special items etc, it's just there to pad out the game.

Maybe so, but considering you get 50k of each resource (55k if you import from ME1) in all but the first playthrough, it seems kinda weak to me.  Considering that this bonus is enough to do the "essential" upgrades means that you may have to mine for and hour, hour and a half, tops.  Spread that across a 20+ hour game and it is a miniscule time sink.  It is padding in the same kind of way the cartilage in your spine is.  In my opinion of course.

Still not a good enough reason to completely bypass it with a mod, to me anyway. 

Modifié par wizardryforever, 22 mars 2011 - 05:24 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

wizardryforever wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?

Yes. Honestly, I just can't stand mining, it's horrible. Games are meant to be enjoyable experiences, they can often be very challenging, but they should never be boring. Mining in ME2 is possibly the most boring aspect of any game I've ever played, so if I can remove it and improve the overall quality of the game, I will.

EDIT: oh yes, mining also only does one thing - tests your patience. It requires incredibly little skill, no special items etc, it's just there to pad out the game.

Maybe so, but considering you get 50k of each resource (55k if you import from ME1) in all but the first playthrough, it seems kinda weak to me.  Considering that this bonus is enough to do the "essential" upgrades means that you may have to mine for and hour, hour and a half, tops.  Spread that across a 20+ hour game and it is a miniscule time sink.  It is padding in the same kind of way the cartilage in your spine is.  In my opinion of course.

Still not a good enough reason to completely bypass it with a mod, to me anyway. 

It's simple enough to grasp. Let's assume that, like most of us, you do more than one playthrough of ME2; and that you ran through your first playthrough completely vanilla, with no cheats whatsoever. 

Why should we, on subsequent playthroughs, continue to subject ourselves to portions of the game that are simply not fun at all?

Planet scanning is not fun, regardless of how long it takes or how spread out it is. It's just not fun. Period end of story. If I, as a gamer -- and the purpose of games being 'enjoyment', remember -- have a way to remove portions of the game that are not fun, why shouldn't I avail myself of them?

Is it 'cheating'? Yes, it most assuredly is. Is my overall ME experience better for having 'cheated'? Absolutely. 

There is no challenge in planet mining, there is no skill required, no sense of accomplishment from the task... It is busy-work, pure and simple. Why should I subject myself to this thankless, meaningless, totally unenjoyable task again?

[wizardryforever]

I'm of the opinion that with games, like most things, you take the bad with the good.  If the game is good enough to draw you back again and again, then obviously it wasn't that bad.  Certainly not bad enough to really justify cheating.  If there are parts you don't like, either don't do them (if optional), or blow through them as quickly as possible (if mandatory).  Modding the game files is something I resort to only in the case of a bug that screws me over.  I kinda think that if you dislike something in the game enough that you're willing to pretend that it doesn't exist (by modding the files), then perhaps you should take a break from the game.  Everything seems worse if you do it over and over again.  Hell, even the fun parts of the game will get stale if you do them enough times.

I suppose my point is that I hold the possibly quaint idea that the devs put everything in the game for a reason, and that that reason was at least good-intentioned.  By removing mechanics of the game, it really isn't the same game, and I could never reconcile that fact in my mind.  I would know that I had changed it, that I had altered the flow of the game, and it wouldn't sit well with me.  "But it's a game, and games are supposed to be fun!" you say, and yes they are.  But you'd be hard-pressed to find a game out there that has an even grade of fun-ness; every game has its ups and downs.  If we removed all parts of less fun in games, then the fun parts would wear out much quicker.

Anything that is considered to be worth removing has to be difficult in some way, maybe the difficulty is not in working your way through the problem or fighting through it, but in maintaining patience.  I would like to think that people are not cheating things out of the game because they have the patience of a gnat.

Again, all my opinion.

[LPPrince]

I r on consoles. I haz 2 suck it up & skan.

[javierabegazo]

LPPrince wrote...

I r on consoles. I haz 2 suck it up & skan.

That's nonsense Prince, I'm on the XBOX and I do all my modding easily. You should know that by now

[jeweledleah]

I like cooking. I like the process, the smells, the tastes, I like the slight feel of mad science to it. I hate washing the dishes, I dislike mixing by hand and there are certain repetitive preparation tasks that I'm not the biggest fan of. so I load up the dishwasher, I use food processor/electricmixer to do a lot of the mixing/steering/blending and I buy some of the things like garlic or onions already peeled and often pre chopped. I cheat at cooking.

can I do all of the above myself and by hand? absolutely. I just chose not to because why? what exactly is the reason to do all those things when you don't have to? when there are tools to minimize the unpleasant so that you're left with maximum fun?

there is a difference between a challenge and a tedium. tedium doesn't make things more challenging, it just makes them take longer and be less fun. and in case of paragon/renegade checks - low scores restrict role playing.

and in any case what difference does it make as to how other people play their game? they have their fun their way, so why does it bother you? does it bother you when people pass the game on casual? do you feel like they are cheating by not passing the game on hardcore or insanity?

[LPPrince]

javierabegazo wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I r on consoles. I haz 2 suck it up & skan.

That's nonsense Prince, I'm on the XBOX and I do all my modding easily. You should know that by now

YOU ARE A HERETIC. I still love you though.(Guy love, that's all it is, guy love, he's mine I'm his, there's nothing gay about it, in our eyes)

5 approval points to the first person who recognizes that last bit.

[IBPROFEN]

wizardryforever wrote...

Something that has sparked my curiousity is how many people talk about how they modified their save game or tweaked the files or something like that to do something that is essentially cheating.  Things like giving themselves resources so they get instant gratification upon finding a research project, or giving themselves tons of Paragon or Renegade so they can pass all the difficult persuasion checks.  What's the appeal?  I mean, it essentially removes a layer of the challenge that the game offers.

I get that people may dislike a mechanic within the game (like the mining), but come on, are people that fussy that they'd rather modify the game files than actually do what the devs intended?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or trying to call people out here.  This is a single player game and everyone plays it differently, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the readiness people have to go outside of the game to address their issues with the game.

Are these mechanics so bad that the game is just unplayable without mucking about in the game's code?  I for one like the challenge of these mechanics (even the boring or tedious ones) because I find the game is already too easy.  A common response to an earnest question of many posters here is simply "use gibbed" or "modify the save files," like this is a perfectly acceptable solution and should be the first thing done.  I for one feel that these things should come as a last resort, or to fix gamebreakers.  Maybe I'm being irrational or silly, or maybe I just have a higher tolerance for tedium in my games than others, either way I would like to know why this is so common.

TL,DR: Why is modding saves and such so popular, instead of in-game solutions?

  I too wonder this, cause I've never modded or download skill to play a SP or MP game. Guess its just a different generation. That got to make a game the way they want it. As for, MP never cheat in them I have fun learning how to use some tactics to win. besides if companies would make their games so ppl couldn't mod or cheat then I reckon all forums would be full of whiners, complaining about not able to cheat in some form.

[diskoh]

Why do people care about "cheating" like it's some big taboo that needs to have some 'justification?"

I have a stressful, difficult job. I work hard. I'm going to play the game however the hell I want and I'm going to have fun. I don't play games for a 'challenge,' and if you do you should find a real challenge in your life to push you so you don't have to look for it in your recreation.

I mod my save files and I buy every item, and have infinite heavy weapon ammo, and I have a blast smoking everyone in my path. Sometimes on casual! If that offends you, reassess your life.

Modifié par diskoh, 22 mars 2011 - 06:03 .

[diskoh]

*double*

Modifié par diskoh, 22 mars 2011 - 06:02 .

[Gentleman Moogle]

wizardryforever wrote...

I'm of the opinion that with games, like most things, you take the bad with the good.  If the game is good enough to draw you back again and again, then obviously it wasn't that bad.  Certainly not bad enough to really justify cheating.  If there are parts you don't like, either don't do them (if optional), or blow through them as quickly as possible (if mandatory).  Modding the game files is something I resort to only in the case of a bug that screws me over.  I kinda think that if you dislike something in the game enough that you're willing to pretend that it doesn't exist (by modding the files), then perhaps you should take a break from the game.  Everything seems worse if you do it over and over again.  Hell, even the fun parts of the game will get stale if you do them enough times.

I suppose my point is that I hold the possibly quaint idea that the devs put everything in the game for a reason, and that that reason was at least good-intentioned.  By removing mechanics of the game, it really isn't the same game, and I could never reconcile that fact in my mind.  I would know that I had changed it, that I had altered the flow of the game, and it wouldn't sit well with me.  "But it's a game, and games are supposed to be fun!" you say, and yes they are.  But you'd be hard-pressed to find a game out there that has an even grade of fun-ness; every game has its ups and downs.  If we removed all parts of less fun in games, then the fun parts would wear out much quicker.

Anything that is considered to be worth removing has to be difficult in some way, maybe the difficulty is not in working your way through the problem or fighting through it, but in maintaining patience.  I would like to think that people are not cheating things out of the game because they have the patience of a gnat.

Again, all my opinion.

This stance assumes that everything the Devs do is both right and good for the game, and that is not always the case. Bioware itself has admitted that it made an error in the Planet Scanning mechanic, and that they will be doing something different in future games. 


Now, I will admit, there are some times when it's taken too far. Powering up your fellow so that he is completely invincible would, in my opinion, completely destroy the game. Part of the fun is in the feeling of accomplishment when you pass through a particularly difficult challenge, and even the sense of sorrow and loss if you happen -- as I did -- to lose a teammate or two on the Suicide Mission. 

But what of the elements that DON'T add to the game? Those elements that -- as sure as I am the developers intended for good -- actually make the game worse by their very existence? I would argue that Planet Scanning was one of these elements in ME2, just as the cumbersome inventory system was one in ME1. Bioware removed the inventory, so they obviously agreed with me. If we could find a way to do that in ME1, would you still say that it was a wrong thing to do? Even if the Developers said that that specific element was wrong for the game?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with correcting a Developer's mistake, be it through mods, save-game hacking, or what have you. Many games I play are close to unplayable without certain mods being installed (Fallout 3 is a prime example). Other games are actually ENHANCED by mods that both improve on the good parts of the game and lessen the bad parts. 

To each his own, of course. I doubt we'll convince one another, but sometimes a good debate is its own reward. And those are rare enough on the interwebz that they're worth pursuing if one finds them. 

Modifié par Gentleman Moogle, 22 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[piemanz]

I think i played the game through about 3-4 times before i started any modding.Like others have said, after a few playthroughs i really only want to be playing the game for the story and combat.I usually only give myself rescources and credits though.

[cachx]

I always cheat when I can. I miss the days of checking magazines for cheat codes.

Why? because it's fun. I'm not playing for achivements, or gamer pride or something like that. I'm also an ex-MMo player and I'll be damned if I have to grind in a single player game.

I'm not ashamed to turn down game difficulty if need be, either. (but in the case of ME2, insanity is more fun to me)

[Quaay]

I won't ever mod just because I'm scared it would corrupt my saves or get me banned from xbox live or something. I just wish in ME3 they would add more clothing/hair/makeup options and give me my purple eyes back so I'm not as jealous seeing pics of everyone else's modded characters

[Fredvdp]

The only cheat I ever wanted to use was using Gibbed's Save Editor to give me minerals but this somehow screwed up all my flags including who survived Virmire.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I think the general reason given here, including myself, is that people cheat to make the game more fun. Don't like scanning? Don't have to! Don't like limited ammo? Get rid of it! If it makes the game more enjoyable for you, then why not?