149 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Haunter]

Urzon wrote...

Agreed, Anders should stay dead if you killed them, which Mr. Gaider has already said as well. Though, he was alittle cyptic on the fate of Vengence/Justice if Anders died....

Though if Vengence/Justice makes a return in DAIII, I would rather it be as something like a sidequest that turns out to be a epic boss fight against zombie!J/Vanders that is attacking a town that supports the templars.

Or better yet, Vengence possesses Sebastian, because he was very vengeful at the end of DAII. With the whole, "Anders deserves to die for what he has done" speak, and the "I'll reclaim my throne just to gather an army to kill you all."

Vengence in spades!

Actually so long as Anders dies I would be fine with Justice/Vengeance returning. Though he should revert to Justice when he parts from Anders, since it was Anders hate that corrupted him, being free from Anders ought to mean Justice is free of Vengeance.

Or a subquest where you either support Vengeance and have him take over someone, or support Justice and help him rid himself of the 'demonic' taint of Vengeance would be cool. Kinda like in Jade Empire when you can have Death's Hand as a servant or free the Emperor's brother from the compulsion put on him.

[The Night Haunter]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Agreed, he should not have gone for the Chantry. He should have attacked the Templars. If anyone deserved an attack of that magnitude without a formal declaration of war. Not sure anyone did.

Anders resorted to terrorism. Destroying the Chantry was symbolic, not a direct attack on his perceived oppressors. He was trying to start a revolution, not kill a few Templars.

That's why we think he was wrong. Terrorism doesn't win wars. American Terrorists didnt win the American Revolution, the continental army did. Indian Terrorists didnt push the british out of India, Ghandi's peaceful movement did. Terrorists didnt collapse the Soviet Union, the corruption at the top ensured that (with the August Coup and Gorbachevs stance on foreign affairs).

I can list more examples, but that ought to do it. In short Terrorism doesnt win wars, resorting to it only hurts your own cause.

[Corto81]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Obviously he was wrong. But he wasn't trying to start a war, he was trying to start a revolution. Al Queda wasn't declaring war when they attacked on 9/11, they were trying to send a message.
But either way, you're not supposed to feel Anders was right in doing what he did. You were caught between 2 extremes as Hawke- Anders and Meredith.

Oh I think you were suppose to feel what Anders did was wrong (murder of innocents).

But either way, I don't want him back. He had gone from a  great companion in DA:A, very devil-may-care, joking, funny... To a whiny git, oh-woe-is-me, annoying as hell, and the only thing more annoying than him was the fact that despite the fact I ignored him for the whole game - and my Hawke barely knew him - he has more of an impact on the story than "my" Hawke and everyone treats us as the best of friends - when i couldn't care less for the bastard.

Similar goes for Orsino and Meredith... Both were forced characters, hard to connect to either as allies or as antagonist, because they just decided to show up in Act 3... And both their endings and their fights were a complete joke.

...

To sum up.... Anders was awful.
His story was awful.

Kill him, bury him, never let him see the light of day again.

[Renmiri1]

Corto81 wrote...

** snip **
...

To sum up.... Anders was awful.
His story was awful.

Kill him, bury him, never let him see the light of day again.

Don't hold back, tell us what you really feel 

Hey I'm all for bringing him back so you haters can kill him in very elaborate and bloody ways, if it means we Anders fans get a similar opportunity to make him atone for what he has done, by helping mages and innocents get  through the mess he started 

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

That's why we think he was wrong. Terrorism doesn't win wars. American Terrorists didnt win the American Revolution, the continental army did. Indian Terrorists didnt push the british out of India, Ghandi's peaceful movement did. Terrorists didnt collapse the Soviet Union, the corruption at the top ensured that (with the August Coup and Gorbachevs stance on foreign affairs).

I can list more examples, but that ought to do it. In short Terrorism doesnt win wars, resorting to it only hurts your own cause.

 
Zionist terrorism was pretty successful... Google Irgun and Menachem Begin.. Israel had a violent start! 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 23 août 2012 - 02:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

No. Anders creeped me out enough in DA2, the idea of zombie Anders (he never makes it to the end of ANY of my games, even my most forgiving, pacifistic mage murderknifed him--he went too far over the line) just amps the creep factor to the nth degree.

Besides, his actions sparked a wholesale slaughter not just in Kirkwall's Circle but in Circles all across Thedas.  That's a lot of innocent mages all slaughtered for the sake of 'his revolution'.  There should be consequences (that stick) for such a heinous act.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 août 2012 - 10:33 .

[PhillyB]

Anders was annoying in awakening, and he was annoying in DA2. Please don't post such nonsense.

[Sejborg]

No. Let him be dead. He has done enough.

[Renmiri1]

Feh, wouldn't you Anders haters welcome a chance to kill him again, in a most bloody way ? Crush his skull, behead him or something ? 

And we Anders fans would get more time with our sweet magey 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 03:54 .

[Personality Disorder]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Feh, wouldn't you Anders haters welcome a chance to kill him again, in a most bloody way ? Crush his skull, behead him or something ? 

And we Anders fans would get more time with our sweet magey 

I am pretty sure you're being facetious, but this is not about HOW Anders dies. The point is that he deserved death - no amount of pain will absolve him of his sins, so the way he is executed does not matter. I don't hate him. I honestly tried to accept Anders the way he was, but there is no justification for what he did.
Disregarding his death would be a major mistake on Bioware's part. If you let him live, however, feel free to meet whatever he turns into during the years of self-imposed exile or travels with Hawke. I see no future for him, but that does not mean he has none.

[Saberchic]

I hope he doesn't come back. Enough with the cameos!

If as many characters come back as people want, half the next game will be nothing but cameos. My hope is for no cameos for the next game, but I know that won't happen.

Anders should be left to: 

1) be mysteriously lurking out there is he was let go but did not romance Hawke (we hear a rumor or two) -or-
2) with Hawke if romanced and kept alive (so disappearing with them) -or-
3) dead (no more Leliana resurrection syndrome darn it!)

[Renmiri1]

Personality Disorder wrote...

I am pretty sure you're being facetious, but this is not about HOW Anders dies. The point is that he deserved death - no amount of pain will absolve him of his sins, so the way he is executed does not matter. I don't hate him. I honestly tried to accept Anders the way he was, but there is no justification for what he did.
Disregarding his death would be a major mistake on Bioware's part. If you let him live, however, feel free to meet whatever he turns into during the years of self-imposed exile or travels with Hawke. I see no future for him, but that does not mean he has none.

Ya I was 

This is the thing I don't get with Anders hate. Zevran killed many people, for status and money. Leliana killed many because her mentor told her to. Sten killed a family including children with his bare hands. Verana killed many, many innocent merchants in horrid ways, for months. She is a veritable serial killer. All because.. just because.. she never tried to see if they were innocent or not. She never repents.

Anders kills a hundred or so innocents, fully planing on dying to pay for his crime. He has lost his fight with Justice and wants to die. Letting him die lets him out the easy way. Letting him  live forces him to face what he did and is a much better punishment IMHO. Like Sten, he needs to atone for what he did, every day of his life. He will never atone for it, there is no atonement, but at least he regrets it. Unlike Veranna 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 05:18 .

[Sylvianus]

Anders will be back if you didn't kill him. Otherwise Justice will appear in another form, but Anders killed would remain definitely dead.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2012 - 05:39 .

[Personality Disorder]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Personality Disorder wrote...

I am pretty sure you're being facetious, but this is not about HOW Anders dies. The point is that he deserved death - no amount of pain will absolve him of his sins, so the way he is executed does not matter. I don't hate him. I honestly tried to accept Anders the way he was, but there is no justification for what he did.
Disregarding his death would be a major mistake on Bioware's part. If you let him live, however, feel free to meet whatever he turns into during the years of self-imposed exile or travels with Hawke. I see no future for him, but that does not mean he has none.

Ya I was 

This is the thing I don't get with Anders hate. Zevran killed many people, for status and money. Leliana killed many because her mentor told her to. Sten killed a family including children with his bare hands. Verana killed many, many innocent merchants in horrid ways, for months. She is a veritable serial killer. All because.. just because.. she never tried to see if they were innocent or not. She never repents.

Anders kills a hundred or so innocents, fully planing on dying to pay for his crime. He has lost his fight with Justice and wants to die. Letting him die lets him out the easy way. Letting him  live forces him to face what he did and is a much better punishment IMHO. Like Sten, he needs to atone for what he did, every day of his life. He will never atone for it, there is no atonement, but at least he regrets it. Unlike Veranna 

I see where you are coming from. I do not agree, however. Anders caused more death than all of the characters you listed combined. Indirectly, sure, but the mere fact that this has been his intention is troubling. He willingly plunged the world into chaos, because he thought that would be the best thing to do. He hasn't spied for the nobility and eliminated occasional unwanted individuals like Leliana or Zevran, he has not murdered an innocent family in a sudden panic attack  like Sten - he deliberately created a situation that would potentially endanger every resident of Thedas. I don't condone Leliana, Zevran or Sten, I truly detest Velanna, and completely agree with your assessment of her character, but this does not change my feelings towards Anders.

You have a point that letting him live might be a better punishment, but he is not stable and there is no indication that he'll ever be. On the rivalry path he even tries and fails to contain the need for vengence that devours him from the inside. I am all for existential torment and leaving Anders to wallow in self-loathing for the rest of his days, but where is the guarantee that he'll not try to do something like that again? He is no longer in control, after all.

[Renmiri1]

The mage / templar war was already happening without him. He might have made it come a bit sooner and by doing that managed to save some mages in Kirkwall (at the cost of Elthina and chantry acolytes).

If you read Asunder or just pay attention to DA2, Meredith had already sent for the Right of Annulment and the Divine was sending an Exalted March to raze Kirkwall to the ground. Anders was not acting on a vacuum.

PS: As for control, I believe my Hawke could get him to control himself, he didn't massacre all templars after all, he stopped after Meredith died. If you read his short story you see that Justice is perfectly capable of killing an army of templars and wardens.

Justice actually did kill one of such army,  in a horrific way, right after his spirit joined with Anders. Anders is the one that holds it back afterwards.  The rescue of Karl ? The confronting of Sir Alrick ? Anders needs Hawke there to help hold Justice back. Not to help with the templars, Anders while on Justice's thrall is immune to being impaled by swords and can burn down entire forests. Justice is a lot more dangerous than what we saw in DA2, what we saw is him being contained by Anders and Hawke.

My Hawke is heartbroken at what Anders did but she can't bring herself to kill him. She stays with him  to help Anders get control back and keep Justice in check. (And also because she agrees that mages were being pushed too far by templars). 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 26 août 2012 - 07:04 .

[DeathScepter]

I do like Justice and Anders at great deal. Remember the situation with Arl of Redcliffe's son, Connor, it would be a good idea if Anders finds a trusted friend either with Hawke or within the Grey Wardens, to do a similar magical rite. And the Mage(for example, return of Velanna of DAOA fame), DA3 Player character and Anders talks to Justice about leaving Anders's body but having another solution to save Ander's life while having a living vessel for Justice to exist in. Blood Magic can do a lot of things. So having a genetic modified clone thru blood magic would be interesting to try within Dragon Age.

It is a given that All fade spirits are dangerous regardless of Setting. Even if they are not tied to a mage, (Anders is one of the stronger ones) They are still dangerous within the living world of DA.

[sistersafetypin]

That would be weird because my Hawke felt intensely betrayed by Anders and thus killed him. Elfina was like a surrogate mother, and for Anders to what he did... It was unforgivable. Especially considering the aftermath

[Renmiri1]

DeathScepter wrote...

I do like Justice and Anders at great deal. Remember the situation with Arl of Redcliffe's son, Connor, it would be a good idea if Anders finds a trusted friend either with Hawke or within the Grey Wardens, to do a similar magical rite. And the Mage(for example, return of Velanna of DAOA fame), DA3 Player character and Anders talks to Justice about leaving Anders's body but having another solution to save Ander's life while having a living vessel for Justice to exist in. Blood Magic can do a lot of things. So having a genetic modified clone thru blood magic would be interesting to try within Dragon Age.

It is a given that All fade spirits are dangerous regardless of Setting. Even if they are not tied to a mage, (Anders is one of the stronger ones) They are still dangerous within the living world of DA.

Wynne and Evangeline get a free pass though. Their spirit is harmless and protects them.  GRRRR 

[NRieh]

you're not supposed to feel Anders was right in doing what he did.

And I suppose no one is supposed to tell me, how am I supposed to feel.

I'm not Anders hater, more like vice versa, but too old for a fangirl. And I don't want to see him in DA3. Because that's the point where fan-service may just kill the story and character. They left it open - so keep it open. I'm ok with the idea that Hawke+Anders had some everafter, no matter how happy or hard it was. It's theirs (and mine, yes, hands off our headcanons). 

There is hardly anything to add to his arc (no matter if we take DA2 or complete DA2+DAA).

Which means - his appearance will either make things worse or be something non-significant and insulting - like "Alistair-king-married with Warden". Or worse - Zevran for those who romanced him in DAO. I know I'm with minority about it. But not all Anders-lovers are that eager "get more time with our sweet magey". And there is little hope that writers will write for minority.

Modifié par Nrieh, 26 août 2012 - 08:01 .

[Renmiri1]

Nrieh wrote...

t not all Anders-lovers are that eager "get more time with our sweet magey"

You rang ? 

Believe me, I know what a mixed blessing it can be to see your favorite character come back to be destroyed by bad writing.. I romanced Thane in ME2. And in ME3 all I got from Bioware was TROLOLOLOL.. 

Still, I have a bit more faith in the Dragon Age crew so I'm hoping if we get Anders / Hawke cameo  that it is good and well done 

[NRieh]

Still, I have a bit more faith in the Dragon Age crew so I'm hoping if we get Anders / Hawke cameo that it is good and well done

Hope springs eternal.... But I know that is hard (if not to say impossible) make such a writing that will respect many ongoing headcanons and respect what DA2 gave to me. Better nothing than yet-another "Alistair-married-king".

Varric is a damn good storyteller - he knew when to stop and how to put it right. They'd better not hurt his tale.

[Personality Disorder]

Renmiri1 wrote...
I romanced Thane in ME2.

I think you might have a thing for LIs that you know are going to end badly. 

And I agree, Anders was not acting in a vacuum. The war did not seem inevitable up to the very end though. What he purposefully did was removing the last chance for a compromise (even if it was just a flicker of hope) and, might I add, painting the mages in a very bad light. Anders made them look like dangerous extremists, when they could have been seen as martyrs and victims. As you have told, he escalated the conflict, and why exactly the life of mages should be worth more than lives of Elthina and chantry people? How is that justified? Anders argues that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, but isn't that exactly the logic of the Templars? One should not stand and watch his brethren being slaughtered, however, murdering another group of innocent people and not in an attempt to prevent the tragedy, but in order to actually bring it closer is beyond me.


And about his control issue - it's a hypothetical: your Hawke might be able to do it, or she might not. The story of Anders merging with Justice is as much of an argument in your favour as it is in my. You could not prevent him from blowing up the chantry, no matter how hard you tried, and remember his quest in the Gallows - he is, actually, losing it. Once again, I'm not saying that resolving the issue is impossible in the long run, but you have to admit  that letting him live is a gamble. You just happen to have more faith in Anders than I do, there's nothing wrong with that.

Modifié par Personality Disorder, 26 août 2012 - 09:37 .

[DeathScepter]

Renmiri1 wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

I do like Justice and Anders at great deal. Remember the situation with Arl of Redcliffe's son, Connor, it would be a good idea if Anders finds a trusted friend either with Hawke or within the Grey Wardens, to do a similar magical rite. And the Mage(for example, return of Velanna of DAOA fame), DA3 Player character and Anders talks to Justice about leaving Anders's body but having another solution to save Ander's life while having a living vessel for Justice to exist in. Blood Magic can do a lot of things. So having a genetic modified clone thru blood magic would be interesting to try within Dragon Age.

It is a given that All fade spirits are dangerous regardless of Setting. Even if they are not tied to a mage, (Anders is one of the stronger ones) They are still dangerous within the living world of DA.

Wynne and Evangeline get a free pass though. Their spirit is harmless and protects them.  GRRRR 

Neither of them has intense anger towards the Templars or the Darkspawn taint in them.

In DA, it is a two way street comes to spirits and their host.

[Teddie Sage]

If Anders was killed, I want his body to come back, possessed with Justice's spirit. But I really want Anders to come back with Hawke, just to see how far their love story will go. I just love that pairing that much. Hope the writers will take this in consideration.