149 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

And I agree, Anders was not acting in a vacuum. The war did not seem inevitable up to the very end though. What he purposefully did was removing the last chance for a compromise (even if it was just a flicker of hope) and, might I add, painting the mages in a very bad light. Anders made them look like dangerous extremists, when they could have been seen as martyrs and victims. As you have told, he escalated the conflict, and why exactly the life of mages should be worth more than lives of Elthina and chantry people? How is that justified? Anders argues that the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, but isn't that exactly the logic of the Templars? One should not stand and watch his brethren being slaughtered, however, murdering another group of innocent people and not in an attempt to prevent the tragedy, but in order to actually bring it closer is beyond me.

For one thing, Elthina was making the situation worse, either through inaction or actively provoking it by letting Meredith run rampant. Grievous criminal neglect is the very least of the evils she's responsible for. Additionally, everyone with her in that cutscene was a templar. Beyond that, there's a surprising lack of corpses in the street in The Last Straw; compare that to Demands of the Qun, when there were bodies everywhere. I don't know if the explosion did that much damage to the city proper, especially with the guard protecting civilians.

He might have made mages look worse, and I don't know if his attack was very well thought-out, but it was far from a random atrocity.

[Renmiri1]

Personality Disorder wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...
I romanced Thane in ME2.

I think you might have a thing for LIs that you know are going to end badly.  

Tell me about it! 

Personality Disorder wrote...

And about his control issue - it's a hypothetical: your Hawke might be able to do it, or she might not. The story of Anders merging with Justice is as much of an argument in your favour as it is in my. You could not prevent him from blowing up the chantry, no matter how hard you tried, and remember his quest in the Gallows - he is, actually, losing it. Once again, I'm not saying that resolving the issue is impossible in the long run, but you have to admit  that letting him live is a gamble. You just happen to have more faith in Anders than I do, there's nothing wrong with that.

True, in my headcanon my Hawke is not sure she will succeed either but she can't bring herself to kill Anders so she feels she has to try to keep him "sane". For his sake, her sake and the good of all people in Thedas. 

[Jobrill]

If Anders shows up alive in DA3 no matter what you did to him in the final moments of DA2, I hope my character will be able to kill him immediately, that's all I ask.

[Renmiri1]

wrong thread 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 06:49 .

[NRieh]

But I really want Anders to come back with Hawke, just to see how far their love story will go.

How far their story love will go, you say?

Did you really enjoy "seeing how far their love story went" with Alistair-king married Warden?.. Wanna hear couple of witty metaphors and/or dumb explaination why is Hawke not around?

And that's also a rare case when I feel for haters who killed him. They will geta very ugly example of "rachni queen" type plot, if Anders, whom their Hawke killed still lives in DA3.

But I'd bet on double-backup, same as all of ME3 was done. If one character is dead - there is always another to replace him, without almost same lines and no obvious global plot changes. So, if they need to take Justice to action - It'll be either Anders or another posessed mage. Characters would be different, but main story will be same.

ps: and I'm also curious- will they repeat geth\\quarrian trick. I mean - peace option. Probably, that's where Anders-alive could act same as Tali-alive-admiral. And to be honest -that's the only role I could possibly accept for him. He started the sh!t, and he'd be one to make it end. But...that's too good to be true...and also - not so popular. Haters gonna hate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

How many times do I have to kill that douche so he stays dead? Frak no!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The mage / templar war was already happening without him. He might have made it come a bit sooner and by doing that managed to save some mages in Kirkwall (at the cost of Elthina and chantry acolytes).

If you read Asunder or just pay attention to DA2, Meredith had already sent for the Right of Annulment and the Divine was sending an Exalted March to raze Kirkwall to the ground. Anders was not acting on a vacuum.

No.
A large building gets blown up and you assume everyone that dies is just Elthina and some acolytes? Yeah right.


Also, NO. Meridith only went compeltely postal AFTER Anders blew up the Chantry. And Elthina was the one stopping her from invoking the annulment in the first place.
And no, and Exhalted march would not raze Kirkwall to the ground.

[NRieh]

A large building gets blown up and you assume everyone that dies is just Elthina and some acolytes? Yeah right.

How many people are often can be found in a church out of some event or ritual time? And we are not talking about some sweet tourists spot (like St.Paul or Notre Dam or etc).

I'm not saying he did absolutely right thing and chose proper way of exposing Meredith insanity. She did not act as sane person. Anders did not belong to Circle, Circle had no responsibility for him, and it was actually HER and her Templars job to take care of dangerous and posessed apostates on the run. But insead of ordering to capture or kill him - she appeals Right of Annulement to kill all the Circle mages.

And no, I don't believe in picking "lesser Evil" for good. But don't exaggerate. Take a look at any visitable in-game chantry, if you need to count. Compare those with circle "population", if you want to judge by numbers.

[Sealy]

No please don't. Man I have had to kill this guy in two games now! Thats one time too many. Unless it's done like Tali/Garrus were, if they died, they stay dead. (Except for occasional glitchy ghost convos.)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nrieh wrote...

A large building gets blown up and you assume everyone that dies is just Elthina and some acolytes? Yeah right.

How many people are often can be found in a church out of some event or ritual time? And we are not talking about some sweet tourists spot (like St.Paul or Notre Dam or etc).

Depends on the culture.
In my town there's people in the church practicly always.

Also, you really think a massive building blown apart by a massive explosion kills only those inside the building. Giant stone block hurling trough the air all around do nothing I suppose? No damage to the sorrounding buildings?
I'm sure when the WTC was blown up, no one outside of the building got hurt...no wait.

And no, I don't believe in picking "lesser Evil" for good. But don't exaggerate. Take a look at any visitable in-game chantry, if you need to count. Compare those with circle "population", if you want to judge by numbers.

By that logic Kirkwall is a ghost town..

[NRieh]

Depends on the culture.
In my town there's people in the church practicly always.

You don't post directly from Kirkwall, I suppose? If you do - just tell us where can we get free WIFI spots, in case someone wonders around with a laptop...

Giant stone block hurling trough the air all around do nothing I suppose? No damage to the sorrounding buildings?
I'm sure when the WTC was blown up, no one outside of the building got hurt...no wait.

Your examples, unfortunately, have little to do with DA2.

First - Kirkwall Chantry was FAR from WTC size. Even if we suppose that it was something like Istanbul St. Sophia cathedral in scale (which is not much like truth).

There also were no "giant stone blocks" - main part of towers collapsed inside, while some part is twisted by the beam for a while and then dispersed around. Hard to tell exact size of stones, but definetely not "giant blocks", and much of those must have hit the roofs - not streets, and I even doubt those could break through. Note also that none was hurt where they stood - and they were literally on a staircase leading to chantry, I doubt there was anyone closer. There is a part of "plot armor", of course....but still - we have a cut scene, and we can not use anything different to judge the nature and scale of explosion.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Note also that none was hurt where they stood - and they were literally on a staircase leading to chantry,

I could be wrong - But Hawke and co. were at the steps of Low Town, far from the high reaches of the Chantry, when the bomb exploded. So I fail to see how being almost an entire city way would put them "literally on the staircase".

As for terms of collateral damage, there was a lot in Low Town, which we saw as we proceeded towards the docks - There was debris everywhere, fires breaking out and, if that was in Low Town so far from the Chantry, who knows how much damage High Town sustained.

If Low Townw as being hit by chunks of debris, there is no way an explosion of that size didn't harm innocent people within the general area of High Town - Buildings would've been hit, streets would've been hit, innocent people would've been at the very least seriously injured.

Not to mention that an explosion of that magnitude would've caused wide-spread panic which can cause all kinds of damage in and of itself, and who knows how many innocent casualties were sustained as a direct result of the chaotic fighting of the Mages and Templars that the explosion caused.

Going off in-game damage that we witnessed, and off general logic and common sense, it's a pretty safe bet that Anders' did a lot more than kill a few innocent Chantry Wenches - Innocent people, not a part of the Chantry, would've been seriously injured.

There's a lot of variables, sure there's a chance that not a single innocent person was hurt by rioters, Templars, debris, fires, the explosion itself and the shockwave it caused, but logical assumptions and in-game footage can lead us to believe that not every single person that died as a direct result was a Chantry Zealot.

Just saying - There's a lot of things you need to consider.

On Topic - I killed Anders in a number of play-throughs and i will be thoroughly annoyed if he returns from the dead like Leliana did. I also spared him in a few, so if he made a cameo appearance for those play-throughs i'd have no problem..

But if he's dead, keep him dead.

[Renmiri1]

No bodies. During the Qunari invasion we saw lots of bodies. There were none during the "Last Straw".

The fire and mess was due to looters, Varric mentions they started looting the Hanged Man even before the mess started because "no one wants to loot sober".

If you go by in game footage, the only people killed were inside the Chantry. The explosion made a magic circle above the chantry and the entire building and most of the debris disappeared into that reddish circle. The proof ? No pieces of Andraste strewn all over Lowtown and the Docks. No bodies but the few before that rage demon.

As for the rest, Meredith had asked for the Right of Annulment from the start of Act 3. Elthina flat out says an Exalted March will raze Kirkwall to the ground. You have plenty of reasons to abhorr what Anders (Justice) did. You don't need to invent more.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 03:04 .

[NRieh]

I could be wrong - But Hawke and co. were at the steps of Low Town

I actually thought they all were stanging in Gallows bebore the Cahntry on a small sqare. If I remember locatino map right... To the left is where Meridith and Orsino were - right upstairs - Chantry. I can not confirm or check it right now, though. As an extra guess - why would Orsino confront Meridith in a Low Town?..

No bodies. During the Qunari invasion we saw lots of bodies. There were none during the "Last Straw".

That's how I remember it too, actually, But - once again I can not check and confirm it right now. As you run - you fight all sorts of things, including some demons, afair, so it's hard to tell - which caused most of the mess. And also - looters and scavengers.

To me one of main ideas of DA2 was that people do not need Blight or darkspawn as long as they have each other to kill and hate...

ps: next to offtopic...but is it just me or anyone else had a feeling that Elthina could be Meridith's mother?.. It was not mentioned, but in the beginning of act 3 Meridith does not want anyone to get her involved...there was just something personal about it..

[Renmiri1]

I think a lot of people don't realize how much Anders curbed Vengeance's murderous ways. We see little danger from Justice during DA2, he is even nice enough to help you in the Fade. The chantry bombing take us completely by surprise and is a big shock.

But Vengeance is vicious and powerful and capable of that mayhem since the first day Justice merged with Anders. You need to read the  Anders short story... Used by the writers to introduce us to Anders, it talks about what happened right after he merged with Justice

I don't see myself when I change, only the reflection in their eyes and the sound of their screams. My arm lashes out and silverite doesn't so much break as explode in a shower of molten metal. The sword melts, running down the templar's chest, and I follow up with a wave of flames which scorch the flesh from his face, leaving only bone so hot it smolders. The trees are burning… the tent… everything around us.

Rolan is still standing, and I smell the lyrium he drank, which guarded him from the blast. But he's afraid. I see his shield jerk and know he barely resisted the urge to flee, and I have a sudden thought, "What am I?" for I've seen him face both broodmothers and abominations without fear.

And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me, for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when he gives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just ], whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me.

He hated me, and he is dead. He feared me, and he is dead. He hunted me, and he is dead.

They will all die. Every templar, every holy sister who stands in the way of our freedom will die in agony and their deaths will be our fuel. We will have justice. We will have vengeance

And suddenly I'm alone, standing in a burning forest, with the bodies of templars and wardens at my feet. So many, and I didn't even know they were there. Didn't even know I had killed them, but the evidence is all around me. Not the aftermath of a battle as I've known it, but a bloody abattoir of rent limbs and torn and eaten flesh.

This "thing" above is obviously capable of blowing up the Chantry and killing innocent people. This is the beast that Anders struggles every day to control and succeeds for seven years.

When he asks for Hawke to help save Karl, it is not to protect him and Karl, it is to protect the templars from himself. Anders tells Hawke that he is freeing Karl "no matter what cost" which IMHO is him cautioning that should he have to go alone, the cost in lives will be staggering.

Similarly, when Anders goes deal with Ser Alrick he begs Hawke to come with him. We know from the short story that he has the power to do it alone. He wants Hawke there to stop Justice / Vengeance, if he loses control.

There is a very strong and twisted demon inside Anders. He manages to keep it in check (with Hawke's help) for seven years, but loses the battle due to despair at Meredith's madness. When you kill him, only Anders dies, Justice / Vengeance gets freed and can go possess someone else. I much rather keep Anders alive, forcing him to atone for what he and Justice did, while trying to find a way to get Vengeance / Justice out of my sweet magey 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 août 2012 - 04:33 .

[Renmiri1]

Meredith's parents died at the hands of her sister, an apostate mage that got possessed..

[Little Princess Peach]

yes we need more sexy mages in DA3 im not sure what Anders can do though maybe stand there and look pretty while the new hero saves the day

[coldwetn0se]

The beginning of the Final Straw is on the steps from Low Town to High Town (technically in Low Town). The steps are located near Lady Elegance's Potion Stall, and across from Fenriel's fathers stall (when he was there in Act 1). As for bodies; no there are no bodies shown going through Low Town (escept the ones killed by you, Templars or mage/demons). And yes, you go from Low Town to the Docks, then across the water to the Gallows, which takes you further away from the blast zone.

As for speculation on how much damage was done to High Town, it is simply speculation. However, some logic will dictate based on the blast we DO see, and the raining fire and debris that DOES make it to Low Town, that High Town is most likely a mess. I would "suspect" casualties. There is also some question about refugees and orphans being housed at the Chantry. We never see them, but some of the random banter (would need to look up which Act had it), does have two chantry priests talking about teaching the children that day. Again, would need to look up to confirm, and I fully admit, that we are never shown orphans or refugees. We do get the letter from the servant girl from the Harriman's Estate, after doing Sebastian's quest (Repentance), talking about how the chantry took her in, and hearing banter from refugees in Dark Town about trying to get room/board at the chantry (again, would need to look up which random NPC's chat about that, but it is during Act 1).

As for Anders returning for DA3; probably best left to rumor mill from random NPC's or a companion who would have some knowledge of the events AFTER Kirkwall. This way, info could still be garnered by the players (and banter/dialogue could easily change based on import with alive Anders or dead Anders), but you wouldn't get the mess of......hmmm....to much-information(?). (bugged out import flags, retcons, storylines that feel confusing or unresolved, ect.....) Just my opinion though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nrieh wrote...
Your examples, unfortunately, have little to do with DA2.

First - Kirkwall Chantry was FAR from WTC size. Even if we suppose that it was something like Istanbul St. Sophia cathedral in scale (which is not much like truth).

There also were no "giant stone blocks" - main part of towers collapsed inside, while some part is twisted by the beam for a while and then dispersed around. Hard to tell exact size of stones, but definetely not "giant blocks", and much of those must have hit the roofs - not streets, and I even doubt those could break through. Note also that none was hurt where they stood - and they were literally on a staircase leading to chantry, I doubt there was anyone closer. There is a part of "plot armor", of course....but still - we have a cut scene, and we can not use anything different to judge the nature and scale of explosion.

Yes, we have the cutscene to see hte size. And the size of hte structure is huge.

You don't see bodies? So what? Neither the distance, the cammera angles or the resources for cutscenes favor showing a pile of bodies. It is irrelevant.

They weren't right at the doorstep to the Chantry. Stop trying to downplay what Anders did.

[Todd23]

Please do. I need to kill him a third time.

[Renmiri1]

Todd23 wrote...

Please do. I need to kill him a third time.

Anders, the human pincussion 

[DPSSOC]

Renmiri1 wrote...
I much rather keep Anders alive, forcing him to atone for what he and Justice did, while trying to find a way to get Vengeance / Justice out of my sweet magey 

Atonement would require remorse of which Anders expresses none.  He's perfectly fine with what he did and only accepts execution because it makes him a martyr rather than a monster.  As for separating Vengeance from Anders (he's not Justice anymore) you're assuming Anders would accept such a separation.  For all Anders claims regret for what he does as Vengeance and how much he struggles with it he never takes any steps to do anything about it.

The reason for this is simple Anders hates the Templars just as much as, if not more than, Vengeance and he's not willing to stop fighting them.  His war with the Templars is more important to him than anything be it innocent bystanders or even Hawke.  Vengeance gives Anders an excuse, it keeps him from having to accept responsibility for his actions because whenever an innocent dies, or he betrays a friend, it's always Vengeance and it's not his fault.

Let's compare Anders to a character with a similar problem, Bruce Banner.  Bruce has a monster locked inside and he tries his best to keep it there.  It is unimaginably, unlimitedly powerful and he has no control over it.  Even their triggers are similar, but you know what the big difference is between the two?  Bruce Banner makes a consistent effort to stay away from the things that make him angry, as well as people in general because he doesn't want to hurt them.  In the entire 7 years he's in Kirkwall Anders only once considers leaving; getting as far away from the thing that sets Vengeance off as possible.  Even then, even if you encourage him to do so, he doesn't.  He never actually leaves he just lurks around Kirkwall.

Anders can't atone because he doesn't actually feel bad about what he did, anybody not actively opposing the Templars is as much an enemy to him as the Templars themselves (exhibitted by his reaction to Ella), and he won't accept a separation because that would mean he'd have to own up to what he is.

[babymoon]

Todd23 wrote...

Please do. I need to kill him a third time.

I would love to see Anders again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You know what would be fun?

That Anders comes back and you kill him....only for Vengance to bring him back again. And you kill him again...and vengance brings him back again. Adn you keep killing him over and over, in exponentialy more brutal fashion, untill finally his body is such a mess that Vengance can't bring him back again.

[Rabid Rooster]

oh Gwad no! Once in DA2 was enough for that @%$#head.