149 réponses à ce sujet

[Alessa]

YES, please, bring Anders back for DA3!

I would love to see him again and help him in his fight for freedom, at last!

[Wolfspawn]

Sure. Not that I'd care, him being dead and all.
Varric was the only good companion in that game. Carver and Aveline were kinda okay, but one-sided in parts. All the rest were kinda terrible, in my opinion.

[Renmiri1]

DPSSOC wrote...


Atonement would require remorse of which Anders expresses none.  He's perfectly fine with what he did and only accepts execution because it makes him a martyr rather than a monster.  As for separating Vengeance from Anders (he's not Justice anymore) you're assuming Anders would accept such a separation.  For all Anders claims regret for what he does as Vengeance and how much he struggles with it he never takes any steps to do anything about it.
** snip **

I don't see that about Anders at all. Neither does his writer. She compares Vengeance's dominance of Anders to mental illness ( Anders would be bipolar - manic depressive). While deep in the manic stage, Vengeance is king and he can accomplish any evil thing he wants. But then Anders assumes control and sees what he did and spirals into depression.

Anders stays 7 years in Kirkwall because he has a crush on Hawke. Even if you are male, Anders is bi, Karl was his "first". Even if your Hawke never flirts with him, and beds Merril, Fenris, Isabella, etc.. Try it next playthrough: No matter how you treated him or who you romanced, if you flrt with him at the end of Act 2 or the start of Act 3, he declares his love for your Hawke.

You say Bruce Banner avoids trigggers for Hulk. Anders is weaker than Bruce Banner, he can't let go of the people he loves. He goes to save Karl, and later stays at Hawke's side and will romance Hawke - if Hawke insists - even though he knows he will hurt Hawke. Most bipolar people are more like Anders:  he surrounded himself of people he trusts, to  make Vengeance appearances unlikely and unnecessary. Few go hermit like Hulk's alter ego.

Jennifer Hepler (Anders' writer) says:
I'm glad you enjoyed the character so much. Obviously, in a fantasy setting the real world metaphors will never be exact, but I certainly always thought of Anders as being essentially bipolar and I tried to use as much real world psychology as I could (giving away of personal possessions before planning to commit suicide, etc.). I think his romance captures a lot of the joy and pain of dating someone bipolar -- he feels everything in a big way, so his love is huge and all-encompassing, as are his hates, including his self-loathing. It takes work to maintain a relationship with him, and ultimately, Hawke has to decide if it's worth it, knowing that these are burdens that will always haunt them.

People with an inner demon can be very hard to their loved ones. You must steel yourself to lose some battles and try to win the war, without being able to do much sometimes.. It is definetely not a friendship or romance for everyone, if you can chose, you should avoid it. Alas some of us have relatives, sons, daughters, partners that get diagnosed when it is too late to step out of the situation.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 28 août 2012 - 07:37 .

[Lazy Jer]

I don't think they need to bring Anders back. His story is more or less told. Plus there are too many variables for the next game, i.e.: 1. Did you kill him or didn't you? 2. Was Sebastian in your party if you DIDN'T kill him or wasn't he? 3. If you spared him did he fight with you against the Templars or didn't he?

The next game, hopefully, will be big enough without programmers having to code and debug for all those conditions.

[DPSSOC]

Renmiri1 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Atonement would require remorse of which Anders expresses none.  He's perfectly fine with what he did and only accepts execution because it makes him a martyr rather than a monster.  As for separating Vengeance from Anders (he's not Justice anymore) you're assuming Anders would accept such a separation.  For all Anders claims regret for what he does as Vengeance and how much he struggles with it he never takes any steps to do anything about it.
** snip **

I don't see that about Anders at all. Neither does his writer.

Which is fair, I'll admit my view on Anders is highly biased, more on that next, but that's how I see him.

Renmiri1 wrote...
She compares Vengeance's dominance of Anders to mental illness ( Anders would be bipolar - manic depressive). While deep in the manic stage, Vengeance is king and he can accomplish any evil thing he wants. But then Anders assumes control and sees what he did and spirals into depression.

And here is where you're making the same excuses that Anders does; it's not my fault it's Vengeance.  My brother was diagnosed as manic-depressive about 10 years ago and until very recently refused to take medication, seek counselling, or any other form of treatment to help him deal with it.  Now whenever he did something that got him in trouble, whether he stole from friends and family, threatened the lives of same, or assaulted people over minor disagreements it was always the same words out of his mouth, "It's not my fault I'm sick."

This is how I see Anders, he's well aware that he has a condition, is aware of the consequences of letting things be, and still he refuses to actually do anything about it.  Does he attempt to separate Vengeance from himself, separate himself from his triggers, or take any other steps to help keep Vengeance locked up?  No, he time and again throws himself into situations that he knows will draw Vengeance out, and when it inevitably happens he can wash his hands of the aftermath, because it wasn't his fault.

I'll admit I'm probably being unfair to Anders because of my history with my brother, and truth be told I'm probably being unfair to jo, as well, but all I ever seem to hear from either of them are a long list of reasons they don't need to take responsibility for what they've done.

[Renmiri1]

Ah, same here.. A loved one is bipolar. But luckily she takes her meds more often than not. But it took a very patient and loving husband to get her into valuing her sanity. She told me she hates her meds but she loves her husband and daughter so she takes them religiously. Hopefully your brother will see how much your family cares for him and will finally decide to fight the illness

She did have to stop the meds when she got pregnant though and had another crisis. -.-

Even people who try to fight their illness can get sick again. A loving supporting family and spouse can make all the difference in the world. It anchors the bipolar person.

Was really interesting to go through a fantasy version of that issue while playing DA2. I was able to side with Templars and tell Anders to GTFO, kill him or support him 100% and everything in between. Was fun and entertaining and I think it helped me deal with my RL a bit better. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 août 2012 - 03:15 .

[Xilizhra]

This is how I see Anders, he's well aware that he has a condition, is aware of the consequences of letting things be, and still he refuses to actually do anything about it. Does he attempt to separate Vengeance from himself, separate himself from his triggers, or take any other steps to help keep Vengeance locked up? No, he time and again throws himself into situations that he knows will draw Vengeance out, and when it inevitably happens he can wash his hands of the aftermath, because it wasn't his fault.

Which is strange, because in my playthrough, Justice has never forced Anders to do anything bad. He almost did with Ella, but it didn't actually happen, and Anders flat-out denied that Justice made him blow up the Chantry.

[Lotion Soronarr]

And that makes Anders even worse....

[erilben]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is how I see Anders, he's well aware that he has a condition, is aware of the consequences of letting things be, and still he refuses to actually do anything about it. Does he attempt to separate Vengeance from himself, separate himself from his triggers, or take any other steps to help keep Vengeance locked up? No, he time and again throws himself into situations that he knows will draw Vengeance out, and when it inevitably happens he can wash his hands of the aftermath, because it wasn't his fault.

Which is strange, because in my playthrough, Justice has never forced Anders to do anything bad. He almost did with Ella, but it didn't actually happen, and Anders flat-out denied that Justice made him blow up the Chantry.

If you rival Anders, then you convience him that merging with Justice was a bad idea, so he fights to separate himself from Justice. This just makes Justice takes over more. Then you can get Anders to say he wil try to stop what he's going happen with Chantry. After the Chantry blows up, Anders says Justice took him over to bomb it, and he begs you to kill him.

[Renmiri1]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is how I see Anders, he's well aware that he has a condition, is aware of the consequences of letting things be, and still he refuses to actually do anything about it. Does he attempt to separate Vengeance from himself, separate himself from his triggers, or take any other steps to help keep Vengeance locked up? No, he time and again throws himself into situations that he knows will draw Vengeance out, and when it inevitably happens he can wash his hands of the aftermath, because it wasn't his fault.

Which is strange, because in my playthrough, Justice has never forced Anders to do anything bad. He almost did with Ella, but it didn't actually happen, and Anders flat-out denied that Justice made him blow up the Chantry.

I don't think Xilizhra has read the short story for Anders. He seems to think what we see on the game is Justice acting out. It is not, that is Anders holding back Justice as much as he can. Had Vengeance really been drawn out it would have killed a lot more than one girl.

Anders was suicidal in Act 3. At that point he had given up on Hawke, life and on controlling Vengeance. He seems to have agreed the Chantry bombing was necessary and picked up his punishment for doing it: death. He isn't just letting his demon loose then shrugging.. He is giving "justice" to Elthina and the other victims, with his death. There is this dialogue with Isabella where Anders says he should be punished:

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 août 2012 - 07:16 .

[esper]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is how I see Anders, he's well aware that he has a condition, is aware of the consequences of letting things be, and still he refuses to actually do anything about it. Does he attempt to separate Vengeance from himself, separate himself from his triggers, or take any other steps to help keep Vengeance locked up? No, he time and again throws himself into situations that he knows will draw Vengeance out, and when it inevitably happens he can wash his hands of the aftermath, because it wasn't his fault.

Which is strange, because in my playthrough, Justice has never forced Anders to do anything bad. He almost did with Ella, but it didn't actually happen, and Anders flat-out denied that Justice made him blow up the Chantry.

I don't think Xilizhra has read the short story for Anders. He seems to think what we see on the game is Justice acting out. It is not, that is Anders holding back Justice as much as he can. Had Vengeance really been drawn out it would have killed a lot more than one girl.

Anders was suicidal in Act 3. At that point he had given up on Hawke, life and on controlling Vengeance. He seems to have agreed the Chantry bombing was necessary and picked up his punishment for doing it: death. He isn't just letting his demon loose then shrugging.. He is giving "justice" to Elthina and the other victims, with his death. There is this dialogue with Isabella where Anders says he should be punished:

Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.
Isabela: And then what? Where does it end?

Anders being suicidal does not prove that it is Justice that has taken over, it proves that he knows what he will do it and what the consequence of it will mostly likely be (and what he properly thinks they should be too)
.
As I see it on friendship Anders stops fighting Justice and Justice's intolerance towards what it percieves as injustices become a full part of Anders and he makes peace with his attack as an attack for the greater good and that it is the necessary thing to do, as a result Anders become much less... human and much more spirit. He becomes the case before the human. Notice that he still mostly call Justice for Justice.

In rival mode Anders self-confidence is completely shattered and he is torn in two, branding the spirit inside him as Vengance and being afraid of it and himself. This allow Justice who cannot wait and need to do something, to take over. 

[Renmiri1]

esper wrote...

Anders being suicidal does not prove that it is Justice that has taken over, it proves that he knows what he will do it and what the consequence of it will mostly likely be (and what he properly thinks they should be too)
.
As I see it on friendship Anders stops fighting Justice and Justice's intolerance towards what it percieves as injustices become a full part of Anders and he makes peace with his attack as an attack for the greater good and that it is the necessary thing to do, as a result Anders become much less... human and much more spirit. He becomes the case before the human. Notice that he still mostly call Justice for Justice.

In rival mode Anders self-confidence is completely shattered and he is torn in two, branding the spirit inside him as Vengance and being afraid of it and himself. This allow Justice who cannot wait and need to do something, to take over. 

Agreed 100%. That is what I meant, Anders just gives up and decides to end it all "with a bang". He doesn't have the fortitude to look at himself in the mirror after he betrays Hawke and kills innocent people so he decides to  take the easy way out. He justifies it as punishment and justice for the innocents he killed and as a way to heal Justice, making the spirit back what it was before the merge. Which can be true but Anders is definitely thinking a lot mre about himself and avoiding facing the consequences of his deed than he is thinking of giving justice to the people he just killed.

It irks me a bit that Hawke can only say "We will be fugitives together" or tell him to GTFO. I wanted a prompt to say "you will have to atone for what you did and if you EVER kill innocent people again I will kill you myself!".

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 août 2012 - 04:39 .

[mazdatazda]

.

[Renmiri1]

mazdatazda wrote...

.

.. 

[xanuen]

hmm i would like to have sex with him in da3 too he's funny

[Helios969]

Sure bring him back (for those who didn't bury the blade) during a cutscene prologue that shows his severed head mounted on a pike. Vengence begets vengence.

[kalasaurus]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm not sure that guy has a future.

If Hawke didn't kill him and Seb didn't kill him and the Templars don't kill him and the Mages don't kill him....then...well the world'll be against him. I don't see a happy ending for Anders.

....maybe if he goes to Tevinter. ....if they don't capture him and do experiments on him.

You forgot the Warden's taint and Calling! 

Anders romance is the sweetest until Justice interferes  but still sweet to go Bonnie and Clyde after that. But not a lot of future there 

Unless Justice cures Anders' taint. And Sebastian gets murdered by his Starkhaven opponents. And Templars get a big case of amnesia "Anders who ?". And Loyalist mages decide to sit on their arse as they are fond of doing... The guy is so marked for death he needs a whole Witness relocation program just for him 

Tevinter is just about the only place he would not have more than 1-2 things / groups trying to kill him.

But would be nice to see him and Hawke happyly enjoying his last years on Earth 

Yeah, I doubt my Hawke who romanced him has much of a happy future ahead of her.  I can picture her and Bethany sticking together on the run with Anders.  They'll be running from pretty much everyone- the Wardens, Templars, Sebastian and Starkhaven, the Chantry, other Circle mages.

Maybe Feynriel in Tevinter will help them?  My Warden is an Amell pro-mage, and her cousin, so I could picture her helping them too, and maybe even disappearing with them.  One can hope.  Anders is pretty doomed even in my happiest headcanon scenario 

[PhoenixAeon]

Can we have some more normal people in DA3 for a change? Just one or two at least? Really boring ones maybe?

No...from all the DA"-characters only Varric is unique and likeable enough to deserve a comeback...the rest? Ah...no, don't need them so much, I am afraid...

I couldn't agree with you more.  I really felt like Hawke deserved someone normal compared to the options that were given.  At least in Dragon Age Origins you HAD normal romance options, and honestly the most compelling.  I felt really bad for my Hawke. Not having any good options for a romance with a normal person.  The seemingly most normal option was Isabella or Sebastian?!   Seriously, with Sebastian who in this day in age wants to be is a sexless marraige/relationship? 

*sighs* 

[BouncyFrag]

As long as I can make him tranquil. It is the very least I could do.
edit: I guess that does make me a bit cruel.

Modifié par BouncyFrag, 03 mars 2013 - 10:45 .

[MisterJB]

BouncyFrag wrote...

As long as I can make him tranquil. It is the very least I could do.
edit: I guess that does make me a bit cruel.

No, Anders deserves it. He chose to become an Abomination and he chose to commit an act of terrorism and he must be held accountable.
A knife on the back is too good for him. Sure, bring him back, I'm not finished with him yet.

[Sir George Parr]

I thought he would stay dead this time?

[Lazy Jer]

EDIT:  I answered this question already a few posts up from here.  I forgot and answered it again here.  In short, you don't need to see this post.  It is not the reply you're looking for.  You can go about your business.  Move along.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 04 mars 2013 - 11:14 .

[Hazegurl]

I killed Anders as a warrior. I wanted him dead in my pro mage play through but I left him alive to force him to make up for what he did. I hate the idea of him living at the end, though. He deserves death and I hate that Hawke was too gentle with that knife. Hawke should have beheaded him instead. Now he always gets the knife. The only characters I want to see again in DA3 is Fenris, Varric, and Isabella. No one else was worth my time.

[AshenShug4r]

Hazegurl wrote...

I killed Anders as a warrior. I wanted him dead in my pro mage play through but I left him alive to force him to make up for what he did. I hate the idea of him living at the end, though. He deserves death and I hate that Hawke was too gentle with that knife. Hawke should have beheaded him instead. Now he always gets the knife. The only characters I want to see again in DA3 is Fenris, Varric, and Isabella. No one else was worth my time.

Such barbarism.

[nightelfmoHawke]

I think it would be cool, if you killed anders, Justice takes over his corpse like he did to Kristoff and becomes like an optional boss or something in Dragon Age 3. Justice in full control!!!