58 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Reidbynature wrote...

Yes, but the counter argument here seems to be "she knows she is doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid, but she has taken precautions and it is everybody else's fault they died". lol

It is.

If Merrill had gone through with this, been possessed, and Hawke had killed her, it would be Merrill's fault. However, Merithari was the one who willing took a demon into herself, Hawke killed her, and it's Merithari's fault.

Merrill is responsible for her own actions, not the actions of her Keeper and her clan.

[Camenae]

Ok but I thought the Eluvian was part of a communication system between cities. If thousands of years later, all someone had to go on was a broken telephone, what more can that person learn about our culture by fixing the phone that he or she couldn't already tell just by examining the device? And how would she even know she's fixed it? Communication devices won't work unless it has something to communicate with. Harry Potter's magical two-way mirror also showed nothing until someone with the other mirror actually started using it. Unless she just wants to ask demons about her culture. In which case doesn't she already converse with demons?

[AlexXIV]

Yes I see that the same way. Merithari took away the morale of the story. The morale could have been that Merrill is too weak, but Merithari prevented that to play out. Only problem I have with Merrill is that she does not resist demons in the fade as well as for example Morrigan did. So if I was to choose to trust Morrigan or Merrill I'd probably go with Morrigan.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 03:22 .

[AlexXIV]

Camenae wrote...

Ok but I thought the Eluvian was part of a communication system between cities. If thousands of years later, all someone had to go on was a broken telephone, what more can that person learn about our culture by fixing the phone that he or she couldn't already tell just by examining the device? And how would she even know she's fixed it? Communication devices won't work unless it has something to communicate with. Harry Potter's magical two-way mirror also showed nothing until someone with the other mirror actually started using it. Unless she just wants to ask demons about her culture. In which case doesn't she already converse with demons?

They are also sort of portals. the Keeper says the demon wanted Merrill to fix it so the demon can use it as a portal in the realm of mortals, to escape its prison.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 03:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Camenae wrote...

...I thought the Eluvian was part of a communication system between cities.

Witch Hunt suggests it's more than that. Much more, actually.

[upsettingshorts]

I was going to add "why wasn't there a way to stab Anders" but then I remembered there was.

...also you can sell Fenris back to the Magister.  So there's that too!

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 mars 2011 - 03:24 .

[LobselVith8]

fanman72 wrote...

Their selfishness and stupidity wasn't revealed until after you realized what has happened.  I wasn't going to give the Arishok Isabela, because the Quanari - although the best part of the storyline - are bat**** insane and deserved to be slaughtered.  But I really wish you could just throw Isabela off a building, and Meril the same during her Act 3 quest

Merrill doesn't demonstrate stupidity in her desire to restore the Eluvian or how she addresses that all spirits are dangerous. She's completely inexperienced in dealing with a human culture and a city because of her upbringing among the Dalish, but that doesn't mean she's stupid. How is it selfish that Merrill put her life at risk for the chance to give something back to her people, even if the chances were slim that it would work out and the only person's life on the line was Merrill's? Merrill wasn't selfish trying to restore the Eluvian, because the entire premise behind the Dalish is the restoration of their lore and their history.

fanman72 wrote...

It was fun knifing Anders at the end though

Because he wanted to free his people after a thousand years of oppression?

[mesmerizedish]

Isabela and I were throwing each other off bridges all the time. Figuratively speaking, of course.

[Reidbynature]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Yes, but the counter argument here seems to be "she knows she is doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid, but she has taken precautions and it is everybody else's fault they died". lol

It is.

If Merrill had gone through with this, been possessed, and Hawke had killed her, it would be Merrill's fault. However, Merithari was the one who willing took a demon into herself, Hawke killed her, and it's Merithari's fault.

Merrill is responsible for her own actions, not the actions of her Keeper and her clan.

I'm not saying the Keeper's idea was the best solution or that the clan becoming hostile forcing Hawke to kill them all is completely blameless, but the reason for all of it happening just comes down to one thing.  Merrill.  Her actions had those consequences.  You can't simply wash that away with "I didn't mean it" or "no one would let me do that incredibly dangerous thing".

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Yes, but the counter argument here seems to be "she knows she is doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid, but she has taken precautions and it is everybody else's fault they died". lol

It is.

If Merrill had gone through with this, been possessed, and Hawke had killed her, it would be Merrill's fault. However, Merithari was the one who willing took a demon into herself, Hawke killed her, and it's Merithari's fault.

Merrill is responsible for her own actions, not the actions of her Keeper and her clan.

Personal responsibility is SO passé.

@Reidbynature: Just no. Marethari didn't die because of Merrill. She died because of Marethari. Merrill didn't force her to do anything. Merrill didn't force the clan to attack her. Merrill took responsibility for herself, as did the Keeper, as did the clan.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 22 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[AlexXIV]

Reidbynature wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Reidbynature wrote...

Yes, but the counter argument here seems to be "she knows she is doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid, but she has taken precautions and it is everybody else's fault they died". lol

It is.

If Merrill had gone through with this, been possessed, and Hawke had killed her, it would be Merrill's fault. However, Merithari was the one who willing took a demon into herself, Hawke killed her, and it's Merithari's fault.

Merrill is responsible for her own actions, not the actions of her Keeper and her clan.

I'm not saying the Keeper's idea was the best solution or that the clan becoming hostile forcing Hawke to kill them all is completely blameless, but the reason for all of it happening just comes down to one thing.  Merrill.  Her actions had those consequences.  You can't simply wash that away with "I didn't mean it" or "no one would let me do that incredibly dangerous thing".

Well no, just no. Merrill never endangered anyone aside from herself. She even asked Hawke to go with her to kill her if things would go wrong so that the clan was not harmed. The Keeper acted not to protect the clan or anyone. Actually the clan should have been gone long ago. But the keeper decided to stay and save Merrill because Merrill was more important to her than even the clan. It was the Keeper's fault, not Merrill's.

[mesmerizedish]

AlexXIV is correct. Everyone is solely responsible for the decisions they make. You cannot say "Oh, Merrill made Marethari do it!" Well, no, she didn't. Marethari made a choice.

[Taleroth]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Isabela and I were throwing each other off bridges all the time. Figuratively speaking, of course.

Please, go on...

Reidbynature wrote...

I'm not saying the Keeper's idea was the best solution or that the clan becoming hostile forcing Hawke to kill them all is completely blameless, but the reason for all of it happening just comes down to one thing.  Merrill.  Her actions had those consequences.  You can't simply wash that away with "I didn't mean it" or "no one would let me do that incredibly dangerous thing".

Her actions had those consequences in the same way that a butterly flapping its wings has the consequences of power outages.  It simply stupid to blame the aforementioned for the distant consequent.  Merril is not responsible for the choices of others.

Marethari's to blame, too!  She sent Merril with Hawke!  Loghain's to blame!  He let the Blight spread to Lothering, which forced Hawke to relocate to Kirkwall!  Sophia Dryden!  The Magisters!

It's absurd.

[Reidbynature]

*Shakes head and leaves thread for good*

[Legbiter]

Didn't personally see what was so special about the Eluvian. It's like if nuclear war destoyed 98% of all humanity tomorrow and 30 years down the line a survivor in a small tribe somewhere managed to get an old iPhone up and running. Yay, but kinda pointless, for a wide varity of reasons. Which I guess was the moral of Merrill's story.

[LobselVith8]

Reidbynature wrote...

If Merrill genuinely acknowledges that she could become a demon, then she should have realized that the main reason people are concerned about her becoming a demon is not limited to concern for herself, but concern about what a possessed mage is capable of doing to others. Using my teenager borrowing my car analogy: they might say to me "I know I might drive drunk/while texting and total your car, I promise my parents will pay for your car and they won't sue you for me dying." and I'll say that my concern is not about that, but the OTHER people they might kill with my car if the risks come to fruition.

Which is why she asks Hawke to accompany her and kill her if she becomes possessed. She knows the risk, and she's willing to die for it. Given that Hawke has killed abominations, demons, possessed individuals, blood mages, dragons, and even the Arishok, why should Merrill doubt his ability to kill her if she becomes possessed?

Reidbynature wrote...

Yes, but the counter argument here seems to be "she knows she is doing something incredibly dangerous and stupid, but she has taken precautions and it is everybody else's fault they died". lol

Actually, the argument is that she is only putting her life at risk, and is willing to be killed if she becomes possessed.

[Morning808]

EDarkness wrote...

I agree to some degree. I really wanted to smack Merrill, because she was obviously being stupid. Which is why I maxed her out and then didn't give her the knife and told the tribe I was going to take her away and she'd never come back. I liked the character and she was my LI, but there were points where I couldn't help but smack my forehead.

That happens with nearly all the characters.

I smacked me head when isabela ran off, I keep smacking my head every time Fenris keeps trying to kill everyone from his past, I smack my head when Varric starting falling for the same thing his brother did, etc...

The only thing that I really smack my head because of Merril for is because she just can't understand every action comes with a price, which ends up making have to kill my Warden's Clan since I can't stand for her Rivaly

Modifié par Morning808, 22 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[LobselVith8]

Morning808 wrote...

That happens with nearly all the characters.

I smacked me head when isabela ran off, I keep smacking my head every time Fenris keeps trying to kill everyone from his past, I smack my head when Varric starting falling for the same thing his brother did, etc...

The only thing that I really smack my head because of Merril for is because she just can't understand every action comes with a price, which ends up making have to kill my Warden's Clan since I can't stand for her Rivaly

You can tell the clan you'll take responsibility, and nobody has to die. As for Merrill, she knows there's a price to pay, but she's the one willing to pay it.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morning808 wrote...

That happens with nearly all the characters.

I smacked me head when isabela ran off, I keep smacking my head every time Fenris keeps trying to kill everyone from his past, I smack my head when Varric starting falling for the same thing his brother did, etc...

The only thing that I really smack my head because of Merril for is because she just can't understand every action comes with a price, which ends up making have to kill my Warden's Clan since I can't stand for her Rivaly

You can tell the clan you'll take responsibility, and nobody has to die. As for Merrill, she knows there's a price to pay, but she's the one willing to pay it.

This.

[fanman72]

fanman72 wrote...

fanman72 wrote...

It was fun knifing Anders at the end though

Because he wanted to free his people after a thousand years of oppression?

Because he went about in doing it in the stupidest way possible

Modifié par fanman72, 22 mars 2011 - 03:45 .

[Tleining]

Reidbynature wrote...
Really?  In what world is Aveline and Cullen good comparisons for what Merrill was trying to do?  They were responding to immediate or potential threats.  In Merrill's case, she was the threat.  How can anyone not see that?  The keeper stepped in because of the potential risk to save Merrill from herself.  So what if Merrill brought Hawke with her to kill her just in case?  There was no gaurantee that Hawke could contain the threat if it possessed her.  That's a stupid request on so many levels.  If someone asks you to stand by to kill them just in case then it's a good sign they're doing something wrong.  That should be plain to anyone.

And her actions did result in death (possibly her whole clan) whether you want to argue whether she killed them herself is another thing.  She still has responsibility.  Something she spent the whole game running away from.

Yes, dealing with a demon is dangerous. I'm not questioning that. But how does that make Merril selfish? And how can you not see the threat to the Dalish as immediate? The Dalish don't have a home, always on the move, always running away. Even if they one day rebuild their home, the chantry would just destroy them again.

If Merrils Actions caused the death of her clan in your plays, that is up to you. They survived just fine in mine, and the Keeper sacrificing herself was the Keepers choice, not something Merril is responsible for.
And Merril is not running away. She wants to do the right thing, everyone disagrees with it, but she continues to believe in it and follows it through. To me, that's admirable.


"If someone asks you to stand by to kill them just in case then it's a good sign they're doing something wrong.  That should be plain to anyone."
what if it's worth the risk? What if the reward for taking that risk is eternal world peace or something equal good for everyone? It's not wrong, it's dangerous. I wouldn't take that chance, i would step back and try to do something else. But other people might be willing. And if they suceed they are called heroes.

[AlexXIV]

fanman72 wrote...

fanman72 wrote...

fanman72 wrote...

It was fun knifing Anders at the end though

Because he wanted to free his people after a thousand years of oppression?

Because he went about in doing it in the stupidest way possible

And because he gave Meredith the excuses she waited for all the time to annull the circle. And because my sister Bethany was part of the Circle to be annulled and the jackass didn't even give me a warning to get her out before it was too late.

[Morning808]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morning808 wrote...

That happens with nearly all the characters.

I smacked me head when isabela ran off, I keep smacking my head every time Fenris keeps trying to kill everyone from his past, I smack my head when Varric starting falling for the same thing his brother did, etc...

The only thing that I really smack my head because of Merril for is because she just can't understand every action comes with a price, which ends up making have to kill my Warden's Clan since I can't stand for her Rivaly

You can tell the clan you'll take responsibility, and nobody has to die. As for Merrill, she knows there's a price to pay, but she's the one willing to pay it.

I know I can but that make Merril hate me and I can't stand it. And I know Merril knows there is a price but she doesn't know how far it could go which is what happened with the keeper. Yes she was willing to deal with the demon and have me strike her down if anything goes wrong but she didn't know how far the keeper would have gone to keep her safe from it

[LobselVith8]

fanman72 wrote...

Because he went about in doing it in the stupidest way possible

But look at the result: the Circles rose up and set the world on fire. Like Varric said, the Chantry "already lost all the Circles." Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his methods, they clearly worked to show all the mages that they can resist the templars, since Varric even addresses that the incident at Kirkwall showed them that the templars "could be defied." It's why the Circles end up freeing themselves after a thousand years of being under Chantry control.

Morning808 wrote...

I know I can but that make Merril hate me and I can't stand it. And I know Merril knows there is a price but she doesn't know how far it could go which is what happened with the keeper. Yes she was willing to deal with the demon and have me strike her down if anything goes wrong but she didn't know how far the keeper would have gone to keep her safe from it

Why would Merrill hate you? All she tells me is that they would kill her if it wasn't for Hawke, she never gives any indication that she hates Hawke for taking responsibility. And she's not responsible for what the Keeper does; it was the Keeper's job to look after the clan, and they should have left Sundermount years ago, as Merrill points out to her.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 mars 2011 - 03:55 .