79 réponses à ce sujet

[allankles]

 The Loghain fight was pretty easy with my shield and sword Couslan Warden. Never needed a potion, stunned him and broke him down gradually until the end.

The Arishok was a different animal all together, I found him a lot easier with my mage using entropy and force magic, than with my warrior.

I agree with the posters that said DA 2 combat was gimped by trying to be a jack of all trades. It was actiony but was still impaired by D & D style squad mechanics. A more skill based battle system was needed to make the Arishok battle epic. The same can be said about the dragon fights, they're very anti-climatic.

[Pinely]

Yeah, the Arishok fight was very epic in a story sense, but the fight itself wasn't very interesting. I think Bioware was trying to make it more interesting than the Loghain fight, but they made the Arishok too powerful for Rogue/Mage characters, necessitating a lot of kiting. And for Sword/Shield Warriors it was a total snooze fest.

I really enjoyed the Rock Wraith fight because there were mechanics to the fight. It was a bit on the formulaic side and Bioware needs to work on giving the mechanics fluidity, but I think this style of fighting has a lot of potential.

[allankles]

It has some potential but they need to add defensive maneuvers that extend beyond kiting and stunning opponents, a dodge and block (for human sized foes) would be welcome. I found him easy with my mage, but that's because I slowed him down with Force magic and Entropy which stuns him for a while, so I didn't kite really. Outside of those schools of magic mages are weak against him, I agree.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is that they went for a combat system that wile moving in the right direction, still bends over backwards to please the baldurs gate crowd. What we end up with, is a semi-tactical mmo-style combat system, where a game like this should have fullblown, (player)- skillbased combat.

Ugh. No. I hated that in Jade Empire. Button-mashing is boring.

[Lithuasil]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The problem is that they went for a combat system that wile moving in the right direction, still bends over backwards to please the baldurs gate crowd. What we end up with, is a semi-tactical mmo-style combat system, where a game like this should have fullblown, (player)- skillbased combat.

Ugh. No. I hated that in Jade Empire. Button-mashing is boring.

I could probably comment on that if I had actually played the thing. Think Dark Messiah (if you've played that - if not, fix that) 

[PPR223]

The problem with one on one boss fights, in a game that has several classes, is that the only one that will ever be suitable for it is a heavily armed melee fighter. It will be hard to make it fun to play as a Rogue, let alone a Mage, because all they will be doing is running around. Perhaps they should only have this choice as a warrior, because its the only way that it actually makes sense.

The Arishok had too much life, which was the main problem with quite a few of the boss fights on this game. If they brought it down to just above the amount that a Warrior will usually have at a certain level, then it will improve it.

They will need to counter-balance this though, by making the AI extra intelligent, making them hit about as hard as you can, disabling the use of health potions. This will base the fight on using the right skills at the right time, but it will not fix the fight for Rogues and Mages.

As I said, Mages and Rogues just will never have very good one on one fights, as they cannot fight straight up against a Warrior without being able to heal.

[allankles]

Lithuasil wrote...
I
could probably comment on that if I had actually played the thing.
Think Dark Messiah (if you've played that - if not, fix that) 

Dark Messiah was first person though. Jade Empire was interesting, but again a bit too simple in how it worked. It would have been great if not for the simple 3 move combo for every style, coupled with the simple block system that was a bit broken, especially when you used that leap.

A more complex combo system that incorporated the different styles as well as a proper countering system would have done wonders for the combat in that game. An eastern style martial arts game without a proper counter attack system is a no no.

Modifié par allankles, 25 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[Lithuasil]

allankles wrote...

Dark Messiah was first person though..

True, but then, I see no reason why a game that is about roleplaying a character would not want to be in first person.
Basically, a magic system that's true to DA lore, and the combat from dark messiah with a few slight tweaks - that's what I'd want, anyway.

[Scnew]

When I fought him, I froze him in place with Winter's Grasp. Then I cast Gravitic Ring right on top of him and he couldn't move out of it. I just sat there shooting him, prepared to start kiting again until Winter's Grasp cooled down once the Ring dissipated, but was surprised to find that even after Gravitic Ring wore off, he didn't move. He just sat totally still as my dog and I hit him over and over and over.

[allankles]

Lithuasil wrote...

allankles wrote...

Dark Messiah was first person though..

True, but then, I see no reason why a game that is about roleplaying a character would not want to be in first person.
Basically, a magic system that's true to DA lore, and the combat from dark messiah with a few slight tweaks - that's what I'd want, anyway.

Would welcome that myself, but there's Skyrim, so I'll get my fix regardless. The combat ha to be expanded further for the next DA. 

[Lithuasil]

allankles wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

allankles wrote...

Dark Messiah was first person though..

True, but then, I see no reason why a game that is about roleplaying a character would not want to be in first person.
Basically, a magic system that's true to DA lore, and the combat from dark messiah with a few slight tweaks - that's what I'd want, anyway.

Would welcome that myself, but there's Skyrim, so I'll get my fix regardless. The combat ha to be expanded further for the next DA. 

At least they tried with this one, let's keep our fingers crossed 

[Radwar]

Lithuasil wrote...

allankles wrote...

Dark Messiah was first person though..

True, but then, I see no reason why a game that is about roleplaying a character would not want to be in first person.
Basically, a magic system that's true to DA lore, and the combat from dark messiah with a few slight tweaks - that's what I'd want, anyway.

Sigh, seriously do 95% of your posts have to be about Dark Messiah. It's a good action game, but seriously, get over it.

[Lithuasil]

Nothing quite as classy as necroing a thread via insult, isn't it.

That being said, Dark Messiah is the only game, that ever truly managed to immerse me to the point where cutscenes/lore and gameplay felt like one. When discussing a game, who's single biggest flaw is the massive gap between lore and gameplay, it's quite obvious, why I'd mention DoMM a few times, isn't it?

[88mphSlayer]

i didn't have any problems against him with my warrior

but my warrior is a tank so she cleaned house with the arishok, i don't think i'd agree to a one-on-one if i were a mage

i agree tho that boss fights are dumb if they're only hard because the boss has a lot of health

[PantheraOnca]

i didn't find any bossfights in da:o particularly engaging from a mechanics perspective. i felt that da2 made improvements.

i have not played dark messiah, but i'll get looking into it.


edit: i may have played a demo of that way back when.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 31 mars 2011 - 01:44 .

[88mphSlayer]

PantheraOnca wrote...

i didn't find any bossfights in da:o particularly engaging from a mechanics perspective. i felt that da2 made improvements.

i have not played dark messiah, but i'll get looking into it.


edit: i may have played a demo of that way back when.

definitely... aside from the arishok i thought all the boss fights were better in DA2

[Radwar]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nothing quite as classy as necroing a thread via insult, isn't it.

That being said, Dark Messiah is the only game, that ever truly managed to immerse me to the point where cutscenes/lore and gameplay felt like one. When discussing a game, who's single biggest flaw is the massive gap between lore and gameplay, it's quite obvious, why I'd mention DoMM a few times, isn't it?

Insults or making a point? I wasn't refering to this thread only, I've looked at a quite a few threads and almost every time I see one of your posts, it's about Dark Messiah, it's like an obsession of yours. And you always seem to want DA to become more like Dark Messiah which irritates me. DA is supposed to be a tactical/RPG, not become more of an action (with very little RPG elements) with a first person gameplay style. DAO battles were a bit slow (animation wise), DA2 took it too far in the opposite direction. Bioware should come back and give us a middle ground, not take it farther away than what DA is supposed to be, Skyrim is there for that if these types of games interests you.

Modifié par Radwar, 31 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[Lithuasil]

What Rpgs are about (for me anyway) is immersion. Therefore, any rpg should aim to make it's gameplay as immersive, and close to it's respective lore, as possible. Tactical eagle eye combat, pausing the game every ten seconds, and micromanaging every single action, is the exact opposite of immersion. It increases the gap between gameplay and lore, rather then diminishing it. And that kind of combat (imho) has no business being in games that are about immersion.

[Radwar]

PantheraOnca wrote...

i didn't find any bossfights in da:o particularly engaging from a mechanics perspective. i felt that da2 made improvements.

i have not played dark messiah, but i'll get looking into it.


edit: i may have played a demo of that way back when.

Dark Messiah is a great action game, DAO is a great tactical/RPG. If action games with very little RPG elements is what you like, then you'll have a blast with Dark Messiah.

[Radwar]

Lithuasil wrote...

What Rpgs are about (for me anyway) is immersion. Therefore, any rpg should aim to make it's gameplay as immersive, and close to it's respective lore, as possible. Tactical eagle eye combat, pausing the game every ten seconds, and micromanaging every single action, is the exact opposite of immersion. It increases the gap between gameplay and lore, rather then diminishing it. And that kind of combat (imho) has no business being in games that are about immersion.

THAT'S what a "tactical" RPG is all about, you know "planning". DA & Dark Messiah are two completely different types of games. If I play a game that doesn't suit me, I don't try to make the developers change what the core of the game is to suit my preferences, I instead try to find another game that suits me & my preferences. Why do you absolutely want to change DA for something it's not?

Seriously, if I don't like real-time type of strategy games (Like Starcraft 2), I'm not going to spit on them and demand that these types of games cease to exist just to please me. Alot of people like those types of games, like alot of people like tactical/RPG's.

Modifié par Radwar, 31 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Lithuasil]

Read what I wrote. Back in the day, *tactical rpgs* weren't made because people thought *boy wouldn't it be great, if our combat was slow, clunky and unimmersive?*
What I want in a roleplaying game (much like pnp) isn't the faint accomplishment of outsmarting some Ai. I want to roleplay. That roleplaying should be the main focus of the gameplay, and where it becomes necessary to fight, that combat should feel as immersive, and as close to real combat, as possible. Dark Messia did that best. By no means perfect, I don't even want to see that exact same system again, but it serves to illustrate my point, namely that frantic, desperate, dirty combat is a lot more immersive, then playing some second raid mmo, or playing chess with raiders.

[AngelicMachinery]

[Radwar]

Lithuasil wrote...

Read what I wrote. Back in the day, *tactical rpgs* weren't made because people thought *boy wouldn't it be great, if our combat was slow, clunky and unimmersive?*
What I want in a roleplaying game (much like pnp) isn't the faint accomplishment of outsmarting some Ai. I want to roleplay. That roleplaying should be the main focus of the gameplay, and where it becomes necessary to fight, that combat should feel as immersive, and as close to real combat, as possible. Dark Messia did that best. By no means perfect, I don't even want to see that exact same system again, but it serves to illustrate my point, namely that frantic, desperate, dirty combat is a lot more immersive, then playing some second raid mmo, or playing chess with raiders.

Then you'll have to accept that DA isn't for you. Seriously if you think Bioware will make DA3 (especially after the flak they've received for making DA2 too action oriented among other things compared to DAO) will be a first person action type of game like Dark Messiah, then you are deluding yourself.
Like I said, Skyrim is there if you think a first person type of game is the only way you can immerse yourself.

Modifié par Radwar, 31 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Lithuasil]

Since you're certain they'll make a few steps backwards gameplay wise, surely there's no need to get anywhere near as defensive as you are?
And out of curiosity, when did 'it's not going to happen' become a valid argument for why something is right or wrong?

[PantheraOnca]

I see valid points for both trpg and arpg. I feel like trpg games should be discreetly turnbased, i would love a port of 4th ed dnd to play. Simultaneously, an arpg can certainly be more immersive since game-flow doesn't get broken up as obviously as it does for a trpg.