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[X2-Elijah]

 Spoilers section, because this does heavily rely on the story (and ending) of DA2.
Basically, I'm really not happy with how mages were shown in DA2.. It was a very far step from Origins, not to mention other fantasy realms/universes.
I'm not asking to discuss the ending, or just the act 3, or so.. there are threads for that.
What I would like to know if you guys are happy with how mages are shown in DA2 (taking the story in mind, ofc), or not.

[AlexXIV]

Well even David Gaider said it is one sided. Which is less than perfect. However, matter of factly you can argue that Hawke hardly meets any 'nice and lawful' mages because they would not kidnap or kill people. And that's simply the kind of people Hawke meets all the time.

[X2-Elijah]

Granted.. It's just that after a full playthrough, I'm left with the impression that in DA2, mage = evil abomination, period. And it's that one-sided portrayal, which goes pretty much against my character, DA:O knowledge (and concept of mages in general, but that is beside the point), that made me ask this.. I certainly don't recall other dragon age franchise titles drawing the equality sign between a mage and and demon/abomination, but in DA2, it's very, very heavily impressed.

[MasterSolo]

It seemed to me, that the mages in Kirkwall, were forced to resort to blood magic, because of the oppression they were getting from the templars. Thrask says that Kirkwall mages had it worse than any other circle out there. That's why you may have developed such an opinion about them.

[X2-Elijah]

Well that is, in part, the thing - where are the mages who do NOT resort to blood magic? Where are the mages who would rather die than deal with demons? As it is, it seems that every mage will resort to these measures if you just force him/her enough..

Modifié par X2-Elijah, 22 mars 2011 - 12:43 .

[AlexXIV]

MasterSolo wrote...

It seemed to me, that the mages in Kirkwall, were forced to resort to blood magic, because of the oppression they were getting from the templars. Thrask says that Kirkwall mages had it worse than any other circle out there. That's why you may have developed such an opinion about them.

They were not exactly forced. But there is a logic behind them turning to bloodmages. Frankly bloodmages always existed hiding among others in the Circle of Kirkwall. And when the templars put more pressure on the Circle, the bloodmages were the first to protest. Since they are more against the templars than others. So other mages rallied around them and were more receptive for bloodmagic.

It is like a goverment that gives extremists more credit in the eyes of the population because the extremists claim that the goverment is corrupt and it turns out it really is. There is only a very thin line between 'protecting' mages and 'oppressing' mages. So if the templars squeeze them just a little bit tighter this line may already be crossed. I really wouldn't like to be a templar at all. And I can just imagine how hard it is to recruit any people for that job, not to mention to turn down some who seem 'less than decent enough' for the job.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 22 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[Big I]

The problem was that prior to DA2 almost everyone was sympathetic to mages and against templars, but they wanted to write a story without a clear good or bad side. So, to counter the existing bias towards mages, they made every mage you met in DA2 a blood mage, an abomination, and/or someone who killed your mother. I was not impressed.


My own personal explanation for so many "bad" mages is based on the Band of Three codex entries; the magisters made Kirkwall a place where people are more likely to go crazy. What are isolated cases in other countries (e.g Jowan) is more common in Kirkwall.

[azarhal]

X2-Elijah wrote...

Well that is, in part, the thing - where are the mages who do NOT resort to blood magic? Where are the mages who would rather die than deal with demons? As it is, it seems that every mage will resort to these measures if you just force him/her enough..

I actually meet a few in Kirkwall, including in the last chapter. I meet one group of magi that didn't summon shades nor use blood magic fighting against the Templars. There is also the Orlesians mage that run away because he didn't want to be a virgin all his life and Alain who didn't want anything to do with Blood Magic, etc...

Also, Kirkwall once had a gigantic pool of blood under it for the Tevinter Magister to use as a source of power, Blood magic and demons have a long history with the town...

[LadyJaneGrey]

Needed more non-cutting, non-demon-harboring mages who do not attack you on sight. When the decision came to support the mages or the templars, the mage side felt almost exclusively like supporting an abstract ideology rather than a group of real people.

[TheBlackBaron]

Well, to be fair, it was pretty one-sided in Origins too - for the most part, you had good friendly mages that just tried to follow the rules and you had one small sect trying to kill everybody and those mean old Templar bullies were just too stupid to tell the difference.

The DA2 portrayel is basically just compensating - some would say overcompensating - for that. I get the sense that mages in Thedas are basically supposed to be more level-headed versions of WH40K Psykers, this brings their portrayal more in line with that.

I'd still probably be a magi Libertarian, however.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 22 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[highcastle]

I liked that the mages in Thedas were portrayed differently than in other fantasy works. I like when a game or book or film does something different instead of the same wizened old man or rulers of all they see. In the same vein I liked how the mages were not these saints oppressed for no good reason. By showing their potential for evil the devs kept the conflict from being too black and white. I felt like both sides could be justified to some extent which is refreshing in any medium

[Arppis]

It's great. Because this way people have to use their brain to see the reasons behind the action, instead of the game doing the work for them. Most people just pass judgement on them right away, without trying to see the reason behind the action.

[MasterSolo]

X2-Elijah wrote...

Well that is, in part, the thing - where are the mages who do NOT resort to blood magic? Where are the mages who would rather die than deal with demons? As it is, it seems that every mage will resort to these measures if you just force him/her enough..

The thing is, during the game you don't exactly encounter every mage that was part of the Circle of Kirkwall, chances are, the ones that didn't resort to blood magic, were still in the circle and didn't want to do anything with escaping or blood magic. Also if I'm not mistaken, in fights there are usually 2 types of enemy mages: bloodmage and apostate, which clearly shows a difference. Even Orsino said he never used or dealed with blood magic, until Meredith declared the right of annulement, that is until he was forced to use it in order to fight back. Blood magic is supposed to give you enormous power, and most mages would use it to increase their chances of survival. Like I said, the Kirkwall Circle had it bad, and because of this more of them wanted to fight back. Remember Jowan? With a spell he bested Gregoir and Irving. That's the kind of power, blood magic gives you. Once left with no decision, most will take that chance of power, although its stupid in its ways.

AlexXIV wrote...

They were not exactly forced. But there
is a logic behind them turning to bloodmages. Frankly bloodmages always
existed hiding among others in the Circle of Kirkwall. And when the
templars put more pressure on the Circle, the bloodmages were the first
to protest. Since they are more against the templars than others. So
other mages rallied around them and were more receptive for bloodmagic.

It
is like a goverment that gives extremists more credit in the eyes of
the population because the extremists claim that the goverment is
corrupt and it turns out it really is. There is only a very thin line
between 'protecting' mages and 'oppressing' mages. So if the templars
squeeze them just a little bit tighter this line may already be crossed.
I really wouldn't like to be a templar at all. And I can just imagine
how hard it is to recruit any people for that job, not to mention to
turn down some who seem 'less than decent enough' for the job.

When left if no choice, people are usualy, forced to resort to drastic measures, in this case Blood Magic. I don't think blood mages "always" existed in the Circle. By this logic we can say that every circle has dozens of blood mages just sitting there, and waiting for templars to put more pressure.  Like I said, chances are as soon as Meredith and her templars started their regim in Kirkwall, that's when mages started dwelling with blood magic, as a means to escape the oppression.

[Kaiser Shepard]

They're shown pretty much the same way they were in Origins, minus the fact that you now at least have a mage sister to sympathise with.

[Da Mau]

highcastle wrote...

I liked that the mages in Thedas were portrayed differently than in other fantasy works. I like when a game or book or film does something different instead of the same wizened old man or rulers of all they see. In the same vein I liked how the mages were not these saints oppressed for no good reason. By showing their potential for evil the devs kept the conflict from being too black and white. I felt like both sides could be justified to some extent which is refreshing in any medium

perfectly said

[Emperor Iaius I]

It's obviously the templars' fault.

[The Angry One]

You know I would blame the Templars more if it weren't for Tevinter.
Here is a society of free mages, and what do they do? Practice blood magic, sacrifice innocents, enslave everyone, even other mages, perform ghastly experiments and all talk like stereotypical British villians.

So yeah. We can have Anders going on about "Mages are forced to extremes because of brutal oppression!!11!1!one!"
Then we just have Fenris going "Hi, Magisters."

[LobselVith8]

The Angry One wrote...

You know I would blame the Templars more if it weren't for Tevinter.
Here is a society of free mages, and what do they do? Practice blood magic, sacrifice innocents, enslave everyone, even other mages, perform ghastly experiments and all talk like stereotypical British villians.

So yeah. We can have Anders going on about "Mages are forced to extremes because of brutal oppression!!11!1!one!"
Then we just have Fenris going "Hi, Magisters."

We also have the Chasind tribes, the Dalish clans, and the witches of Rivain to see not all free mages become another Tevinter.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Angry One wrote...

You know I would blame the Templars more if it weren't for Tevinter.
Here is a society of free mages, and what do they do? Practice blood magic, sacrifice innocents, enslave everyone, even other mages, perform ghastly experiments and all talk like stereotypical British villians.

So yeah. We can have Anders going on about "Mages are forced to extremes because of brutal oppression!!11!1!one!"
Then we just have Fenris going "Hi, Magisters."

I. What's wrong with that? 

    a. They were originally opposed to have heavy foreign accents (according to the DA:O toolset) but I guess now they just sound like Fereldans.

II. Supposing that there is something wrong with that, it would be a result of human nature (striving for more power) rather than a result of being a mage.


   b. Fenris is hardly the best source about all this. Compare his sentiment to that of his sister--or his sentiment *before* he lost his memory. He's mentally scarred and killed people who sheltered him and gave him hospitality. Of course he's bitter.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You know I would blame the Templars more if it weren't for Tevinter.
Here is a society of free mages, and what do they do? Practice blood magic, sacrifice innocents, enslave everyone, even other mages, perform ghastly experiments and all talk like stereotypical British villians.

So yeah. We can have Anders going on about "Mages are forced to extremes because of brutal oppression!!11!1!one!"
Then we just have Fenris going "Hi, Magisters."

We also have the Chasind tribes, the Dalish clans, and the witches of Rivain to see not all free mages become another Tevinter.

Chasind are barbarians, the Dalish are constantly on the run and not permitted to form any seat of power, the hedge witches don't hold much power above superstitious villages.
The only real example of free mages and mage leadership in an established, civilised society is Tevinter.

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

 a. They were originally opposed
to have heavy foreign accents (according to the DA:O toolset) but
I guess now they just sound like Fereldans.

A shame really. But aside from that, their dialog is always EVIL.
"Muahaha you shall call me master! I've just returned from blood sacrificing puppies punching old people in the street!"

II. Supposing that
there is something wrong with that, it would be a result of human nature
(striving for more power) rather than a result of being a mage.

Yes but then if human nature compels a free mage to always consort with demons to gain power, enslave others and have constant magic duels with their rivals then it's just proving the Chantry's point.

b. Fenris is hardly the best source about all this. Compare his
sentiment to that of his sister--or his sentiment *before* he lost his
memory. He's mentally scarred and killed people who sheltered him and
gave him hospitality. Of course he's bitter.

Fenris is obviously biased, but apart from what he thinks of his own past most of his assertions are constantly proved right.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Curlain]

I really didn't like the presentation of the mages in DA2, despite the fact they always protested they seen as dangerous just because they were mages and should have the freedoms everyone else enjoys, the minute nearly ever mage gained some freedom they either became abominations, turned to blood magic or had demons unleashed around them (seriously these guys must have shade minions on speed-dial or something).

Apart from companion characters (until the end with Anders anyhow) and Alain I think, all mages who got free became insane nug-rats

I much preferred how they were presented in Origins, where the did seem to be a geninue wider spectrum of personalities and mage behaviour and views (and reactions to the Circle and demons etc) including such things as the mages colletive and different fraterinties)

Heck even some of the blood mages in the Mage Quest showed quite a larger spectrum of behaviour and views then the ones in DA2

Modifié par Curlain, 22 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[Lianaar]

If you read through the codex entries, especially the Band of Three entries, you'll learn that Kirkwall is not like all the other places. The Veil is particularly thin here. You learn that there are secret underground research facilities of Trevinter mages (or used to be) working on some secret project, none knows about any more. You also learn that the Trevinter mages deliberately worked on thinning the Veil, allegedly ther is even a room somewhere in the underground caverns where it is almost thorn.

Books turn up all around the place, which were believed to be non existent, still here they can be found.

All this leads to a series of events:
- there are more mages in Kirkwall as in other places
- these mages are more prone to turn to blood magic or to demons
- the power of demons are particularly strong here
- they can posses simple people too, not only mages

You do see proof for this all over the game. It also explains why certain mages or termplars behaved a given way, how the part of idol was enough to tear the veil (in Varric's quest Anders comments on it too), or how Meredith was so easy to fall for the idol too. This is why there are so many shades, demons and blood mages here too.

I would love to learn what the original goals of the long-extinct Trevinter mages were, something sinister enough for them to hide it! Must be something.

In the light of the above I am not displeased with the way mages are portrayed in DA2, as these are not just any mages, these are the Kirkwall mages.

[The Angry One]

Yeah you see that just seems like it's all a big last minute excuse to explain why the whole game is filled with crazy, crazy mages.

And if something as simple as ENVIROMENT can make mages crazy it just proves the Chantry's point again.
It's just saying that mages are disasters on legs waiting to happen, and all magic artifacts = EVIL.

[Legbiter]

I like how magic works in the DA universe. Magic is potentially extremely dangerous and mages are either at your throat or at your feet.

[Lianaar]

It might prove it either way, but it was a story hidden in the details, you can discover by devoting times to pay attention to said details. Wether you accept this presentation or not is one thing, however it was not a tossed together, last minute plot

One more thing: everything we know comes from Varrik, who confesses being a compulsive liar who is repulsed by the idea of saying the truth and nothing but the truth. When the base paradigma is unstable, everything is possible.