1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

ADLegend21 wrote...

LI's should be shepard sexual. where they all have a thing for the player. Problem solved.

Dragon Age 2 did this, I am not exactly a fan of that aspect.

[Bourne Endeavor]

ADLegend21 wrote...

LI's should be shepard sexual. where they all have a thing for the player. Problem solved.

Only when BioWare writes friendship arcs.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am a bit puzzled by the original post. Unlike some other BW titles I never felt that I was being trapped into a romance by accident. The non-hetero group happens to play games too and thus is a potential market. Instead of ignoring them BW serves them with the same kind of attention and respect as the hetero group. I think that's a good thing and I hope they'll never give in to the homophobes.

Who said anyone was being trapped into a romance?

And who's being a homophobe? No one is doing that here. Can we stop calling people homophobes because their opinion differs from your yours?

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...


Never said I agree with it.  If it was my choice, if you chose a femshep, the Kelly would have been changed to Kenny the brighteyed Yoeman eager to service your womanhood. They are pandering to the fapfap teenage boys here nothing more.  I think I may try and play as a femshep and see if anything major changes, I seriously doubt it. 

I think we all got derailed from the main point, changing the characters now is just bad juju. It wouldnt make any difference in my game since me and Miranda are a thing in one save and I have Liara in another.

Actually in my Liara save I still have Miranda too, wonder how thats gonna work, threesome maybe ? Huzza!

Again, you're ignoring my main point. What if this is not "changing" the characters but rather revealing a side to them that they'd been dealing with in secret up until now? Maybe Kaidan's been in love with Man!Shep for three years but been too afraid of homophobic comments or rejection to speak up. I agree that it would suck to have him be, "SUDDENLY I LUST FOR YOU," but I think it would be *awesome* to reveal that some of these characters have been quietly carrying torches for you... and that Male!Shep and Female!Shep may have been carrying a few torches of their own.

Why would it need to be changed at all?  I could give in and say that as long as you dont have any relationships thus far, some new characters could be activated to allow a same sex thing with Manshep. Since most of us already have a LI comming into the game and THAT SHOULD CARRY OVER BIOWARE, it really doesnt mean anything for us.

[Naltair]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

LI's should be shepard sexual. where they all have a thing for the player. Problem solved.

Only when BioWare writes friendship arcs.

I always disliked that the only way to reach Jack was to sleep with her.  I would love to be her friend, same with Miranda.  Same with all my crew.  More meaningful relationships all around.

[Nashiktal]

Eh wasn't a big fan of the way DA2 did it. For example Anders started hitting on me COMPLETELY out of nowhere. I mean literally he was complaining about Templars and his *situation* one minute, and then suddenly wanting to jump down my pants the next conversation line.

Turned him down only for him to blow up in my face and send him further down the rival path. (Not that I mind the rival points, just the way the conversation went.) It was kinda... Well it a weird moment.

Fenris was handled much better in that regard. They just have to work on Hawke's *love* tone. He sounds a bit creepy when he flirts, a bit out of character for my stoic and noble hawke.

[Whatever42]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

LI's should be shepard sexual. where they all have a thing for the player. Problem solved.

Only when BioWare writes friendship arcs.

True close friendship can only be achieved through sex.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...


I agree with all this, but to put it in another form -

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.
Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.
Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.
Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

1) I'm a man. I like women only. But I'm also possibly bisexual?
2)Then what are they? STRAIGHT?

[jeweledleah]

if one is to take DA2 as an example (and arguably - they have better writers)

its not going to be delicately done. its going to be pushed in a manner of: "oh but you never heard me say I wasn't, oh and by the way - I've had that boyfriend/girlfriend before you that I just never told you about and I'm not going to tell you about it still, unless you show same sex romantic interest in me" I know that there are plenty of people who actually prefer their npc's to be different from game to game. to me - it completely ruins them. call it meta gaming, but when I play through the game multiple times, exploring different dialogue options, including romance ones when applicable, and then I decide to play a different gender and all of a sudden - the character I've gotten to know pretty well at that point - tells me something I've never once seen any hint of, just because I'm playing a different gender?

and in terms of Kaidan specifically and him carrying a torch for male shep? other then the fact that bioware got incredibly lazy and gave him and Ash 95% identical dialogue on horizon, regardless of their relationship to Shepard, doesn't negate the fact that he's tripping all over himself, giving his attraction away, when it comes to femshep and is quietly professional around maleshep with a lot less available personal dialogue. He's also shown as pretty insightful, open minded and generally content with himself character, so "I was too embarrassed to admit my attraction" would be out of character. which means they would have to write in the attraction as a new thing and then they'd have to figure out exactly how to make it fit his personality (that's assuming they don't change it - which I think they will, cause its easier to rewrite then try to stick to precedent)

it can be done. anything can be done especially if you decide that - to hell with what we established, lets take only the parts we want to work with and then write in new parts, and you are just going to have to forget about that other stuff.

you know like Shepard knowing what the heck heat clips are, even though he/she dies soon after events of ME1 and there ARE no heat clips at that time - they just wrote it in without explanation, or Liara, who talks about having to move on and how revenge is pointless and bad and then few months later - she's suddenly so revenge hungry over a character she barely knows - Feron, that she plots aforementioned revenge for 2 years.

I understand why people don't see anything wrong with rewriting characters. they don't see it as a rewriting, they are so used to characters being inconsistent they just accept it as part and parcel of the game. I still dislike it and I still wish it wouldn't keep on happening.

I'm no longer hopeful or optimistic enough to believe that it wont.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

That makes sense.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

LI's should be shepard sexual. where they all have a thing for the player. Problem solved.

Only when BioWare writes friendship arcs.

True close friendship can only be achieved through sex.

Is it not ironic how they claim sex will destroy friendships?

...
In ME3, everyone will hate Shepard!

[coolair74]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...


I agree with all this, but to put it in another form -

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.
Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.
Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.
Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

1) I'm a man. I like women only. But I'm also possibly bisexual?
2)Then what are they? STRAIGHT?

I can see the point they are trying to make but they arnt really doing it well.

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.

But its prolly something you should assume.

Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.

Same as above.

Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

Wat? They all rush it.

Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

This is where Garrus comes out after 3 or 4 years and suddenly wants your manmeat?

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...
Yeah, equality is so undramatic.

One stop playing the victim, I want parity not equality.  Using the term equality is flame bait and implies that I am somehow trying to oppress your view point, I am not.

A few things you nitpick but you never countered my argument about how gender/sexuality frames people's views.  I am not sure why you are dodging this but okay I won't press it, suffice to say that it does matter.  It always will matter and maybe to you, we are all asexual beings and you treat every gender, person, age, whatever the exact same.  If so, you sir or madame, are an exception to all exceptions.

Anyway, you are projecting that I am against your cause.  I am not.  I do think that integrity between universes is important.  Meaning that choices matter so if character x dies in one universe but is alive in another universe then the players involved experience two different perhaps dramatically so stories.  But I would like for character X to be consistent in both worlds, I really like internal consistency.  

So if character x is romanceable by a female character in universe 1 and not so for a male characcter in universe 2, then we can conclude that at this juncture that character x prefers female characters.  It is an inference and that could change but for now given past history we can make a safe bet that in the futrue they will probably prefer females in the future.  This could change but in general as human beings we tend to build our data based on experiences and precedent.  If I as a man date girl y, then I will presume that girl y likes men until I am shown otherwise.  I hope that makes sense.

Now with that said I view the multiples stories in Mass Effect as all alternate if equal storylines that all take place in the exact same "universe", i.e. the characters react the same have the same charasteristics that we can identify with their characters.  Wrex is not suddenly a woman or Anderson suddenly Chinese.  The Council is still made up of Turians, Salarians, and Asari... etc.  I don't buy into the idea that each universe should magically shift sexual orientations because the player chose male or female.  This is not a sign of inequality.

What I do support is that there be options for all orientations but like anything else it does not have to be every character.  It should hopefully be about equal, and equally compelling but it does not need to be every character.  That to me is good storytelling.  On the same track they should also provide compelling friendship paths for your companions as well.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[trickfred]

(Disclaimer: I'm a straight dude, and I have not read all 11 pages, just FYI, that would take way too long, so this may have been mentioned already)

Kaidan is a perfect candidate to be made 'bi' in ME3, and here's why.

First off, assuming that the vast majority of 'hetero-only' straight dudes would have left him on Virmire to get a nuclear suntan in ME1 (and it's assumed that this happens if you start a DudeShep in ME2 with no import as well), the great majority of people (above mentioned dudes, at least) will never even see him in ME3. So, any DudeShep that has Kaidan in his ME3 game obviously WANTED him there, or at least preferred him to Ashley for whatever reason.

So, why not let those people have the ultimate payoff, if they kept him alive because they hoped for a future romance? What would it hurt, really, since most people that might be offended by the idea of Kaidan hitting on him won't even see him in ME3? The fear that someone else, somewhere in the world, might have 2 dudes kissing in their game that you'll never see? That seems rather selfish.

And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

[coolair74]

trickfred wrote...

(Disclaimer: I'm a straight dude, and I have not read all 11 pages, just FYI, that would take way too long, so this may have been mentioned already)

Kaidan is a perfect candidate to be made 'bi' in ME3, and here's why.

First off, assuming that the vast majority of 'hetero-only' straight dudes would have left him on Virmire to get a nuclear suntan in ME1 (and it's assumed that this happens if you start a DudeShep in ME2 with no import as well), the great majority of people (above mentioned dudes, at least) will never even see him in ME3. So, any DudeShep that has Kaidan in his ME3 game obviously WANTED him there, or at least preferred him to Ashley for whatever reason.

So, why not let those people have the ultimate payoff, if they kept him alive because they hoped for a future romance? What would it hurt, really, since most people that might be offended by the idea of Kaidan hitting on him won't even see him in ME3? The fear that someone else, somewhere in the world, might have 2 dudes kissing in their game that you'll never see? That seems rather selfish.

And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

I loled at Nuclear suntan, yeah he is vapor now anyway. Ashley won the coin toss

[Naltair]

trickfred wrote...
And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

Terrible reasoning, men can't be emotional for other men?

If I thought one of my best friends died and I saw them again I would be super emotional too, that does not mean I have a torch for him or want to secretly sleep with him.

[Naltair]

I find all romances being bisexual or open to both genders as being incredibly lazy writing.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

trickfred wrote...

(Disclaimer: I'm a straight dude, and I have not read all 11 pages, just FYI, that would take way too long, so this may have been mentioned already)

Kaidan is a perfect candidate to be made 'bi' in ME3, and here's why.

First off, assuming that the vast majority of 'hetero-only' straight dudes would have left him on Virmire to get a nuclear suntan in ME1 (and it's assumed that this happens if you start a DudeShep in ME2 with no import as well), the great majority of people (above mentioned dudes, at least) will never even see him in ME3. So, any DudeShep that has Kaidan in his ME3 game obviously WANTED him there, or at least preferred him to Ashley for whatever reason.

So, why not let those people have the ultimate payoff, if they kept him alive because they hoped for a future romance? What would it hurt, really, since most people that might be offended by the idea of Kaidan hitting on him won't even see him in ME3? The fear that someone else, somewhere in the world, might have 2 dudes kissing in their game that you'll never see? That seems rather selfish.

And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

Or it could be that they were good friends.

[Naltair]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

trickfred wrote...

(Disclaimer: I'm a straight dude, and I have not read all 11 pages, just FYI, that would take way too long, so this may have been mentioned already)

Kaidan is a perfect candidate to be made 'bi' in ME3, and here's why.

First off, assuming that the vast majority of 'hetero-only' straight dudes would have left him on Virmire to get a nuclear suntan in ME1 (and it's assumed that this happens if you start a DudeShep in ME2 with no import as well), the great majority of people (above mentioned dudes, at least) will never even see him in ME3. So, any DudeShep that has Kaidan in his ME3 game obviously WANTED him there, or at least preferred him to Ashley for whatever reason.

So, why not let those people have the ultimate payoff, if they kept him alive because they hoped for a future romance? What would it hurt, really, since most people that might be offended by the idea of Kaidan hitting on him won't even see him in ME3? The fear that someone else, somewhere in the world, might have 2 dudes kissing in their game that you'll never see? That seems rather selfish.

And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

Or it could be that they were good friends.

Men don't have other men as good friends, we only have enemies.  Obviously.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...


I agree with all this, but to put it in another form -

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.
Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.
Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.
Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

1) I'm a man. I like women only. But I'm also possibly bisexual?
2)Then what are they? STRAIGHT?

To be absolutely 100% definitely straight, two conditions must be met:
1) Explicitly liking the opposite sex.
2) Explicitly not liking the same sex (in a sexual way)

If you only have #1, then it's possible that you are either straight or bi. The Schrodinger's sexuality, if you will.

Mass Effect has plenty of characters that fulfill condition number 1, but oddly enough only one who fulfills condition 2: Jack. If Jack's comment about not liking the girls' club is supposed to refer to sexuality rather than just, I dunno, braiding hair and talking about boyfriends, then yes, she is straight. Of course, in her case, she HAS had sexual experiences with women, so then we get into a weird area about self-definition etc. She really could go either way with arguments for both way.

As far as I'm concerned, all the other characters are potentially bisexual unless proven otherwise (i.e. indicating that they do not like same sex).

Also, we are all forgetting that there is a midpoint between straightness and bisexuality: straight with an exception. And no, that is not the same thing as being bisexual. I could certainly buy that some of these characters are straight with a potential Shepard exception (Garrus and Tali being prime examples... heck, Tali ALREADY has a canonical crush on female Shepard!) However, what I will agree with you and yours about is that this does need to be handled delicately. A sudden "change" of "Oh, NOW I like you!" is not good writing. A revelation of, "My feelings have been growing," however, will work, especially since with many of these characters, it's not out of left field at all. If Garrus suddenly comes onto my male Shepard, my/his response will be, "Hmm, yeah, kinda saw that coming."

[Nashiktal]

I think that if pre-existing characters are to become BI in ME3, it should be initiated by shep himself with its own separate conversation tree.

Problem solved for everyone eh?

[Naltair]

Nashiktal wrote...

I think that if pre-existing characters are to become BI in ME3, it should be initiated by shep himself with its own separate conversation tree.

Problem solved for everyone eh?

This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nevermind.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 22 mars 2011 - 06:52 .