1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

Most of them are hinted at or initiated by the NPC.

Edit: So yes I agree, but this would be an elegant solution and makes it obvious if you don't want to go there, you never have to.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I think that if pre-existing characters are to become BI in ME3, it should be initiated by shep himself with its own separate conversation tree.

Problem solved for everyone eh?

This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I like the DLC idea better, id rather not have it in the game as I am against any "adding" to the characters bio in that way. They are fine as is.

[UsagiVindaloo]

coolair74 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...


I agree with all this, but to put it in another form -

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.
Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.
Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.
Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

1) I'm a man. I like women only. But I'm also possibly bisexual?
2)Then what are they? STRAIGHT?

I can see the point they are trying to make but they arnt really doing it well.

Just because someone likes the opposite sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY straight.

But its prolly something you should assume.

Just because someone likes the same sex does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay.

Same as above.

Just because someone does not rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

Wat? They all rush it.

Just because someone does rush to romance Shepard does not mean they are DEFINITELY gay, bi, or straight.

This is where Garrus comes out after 3 or 4 years and suddenly wants your manmeat?

1) No, it's not safe to assume. It's safe to guess they're either straight or bi.
2) No, it's not safe to assume. It's safe to guess they're either gay or bi.
3) Meant this in the sense that just because a male character did not attempt to jump your Male Shepard, it doesn't mean he's straight. He might be the gayest gay thing who ever gayed on his way to Gaytown... he just doesn't like YOU that much.
4) See, I wouldn't see any problem with that, because it could easily take Garrus 3-4 years to get through, "I have squiggly feelings whenever Shepard is near. Is that normal? NO, NO, I AM A STRAIGHT, MANLY TURIAN. But I trust Shepard... is that enough? Is this more than trust? Dear god, does he even like men? What am I saying, does he even like turians? Wait, why am I wondering this?" It's pretty realistic for people to go through that sort of stuff when they're struggling with their sexuality. Plus, in the case of Garrus, remember that it's *Shepard* who makes the first move, to which he responds that if it's Shepard, it's ok. Admittedly, I'm not sure why male Shepard couldn't have had the same conversation, just saying that it would be fine with me.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

coolair74 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I think that if pre-existing characters are to become BI in ME3, it should be initiated by shep himself with its own separate conversation tree.

Problem solved for everyone eh?

This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I like the DLC idea better, id rather not have it in the game as I am against any "adding" to the characters bio in that way. They are fine as is.

I'm with the new characters idea. Leave everyone as is and just add more that are bi or gay.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am a bit puzzled by the original post. Unlike some other BW titles I never felt that I was being trapped into a romance by accident. The non-hetero group happens to play games too and thus is a potential market. Instead of ignoring them BW serves them with the same kind of attention and respect as the hetero group. I think that's a good thing and I hope they'll never give in to the homophobes.

Who said anyone was being trapped into a romance?

And who's being a homophobe? No one is doing that here. Can we stop calling people homophobes because their opinion differs from your yours?

I can imagine that you don't like to have a non-hetero relation. I am a hetero myself. Being trapped into one is not something I would like. ME2 had a better approach to romances than ME1. DA2 even improved on this. So, if it is not forced on you it becomes a choice and thus can be avoided. Maybe that clears up a bit of your first question. About your second question... I can't find rational objections to the way BW handles romances, other than homophobic ones.

[Naltair]

Human beings never guess we mostly assume.

[Nashiktal]

coolair74 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I think that if pre-existing characters are to become BI in ME3, it should be initiated by shep himself with its own separate conversation tree.

Problem solved for everyone eh?

This is pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I like the DLC idea better, id rather not have it in the game as I am against any "adding" to the characters bio in that way. They are fine as is.

Doing that limits options for the player though, especially if they don't have access to uncapped internet. (I hate living in the country because of this.)

This leaves it up to the player to decide if they wish to pursue the romance, or even to acknowledge that the character is bi. You could be gay, and still not romance kaiden because you don't like him. 

[Naltair]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I'm with the new characters idea. Leave everyone as is and just add more that are bi or gay.

I would be most happy with new characters or player-driven romance, that is easily identifiable as romance/flirt choices.

[Lapis Lazuli]

Hellbound555 wrote...

shepard needs a rabid gay stalker fan just so the people on the forums gets a taste of what we do to the other characters in the game.

Conrad is obviously gay. He says he has a wife, but who says the wife is female

[Ramirez Wolfen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am a bit puzzled by the original post. Unlike some other BW titles I never felt that I was being trapped into a romance by accident. The non-hetero group happens to play games too and thus is a potential market. Instead of ignoring them BW serves them with the same kind of attention and respect as the hetero group. I think that's a good thing and I hope they'll never give in to the homophobes.

Who said anyone was being trapped into a romance?

And who's being a homophobe? No one is doing that here. Can we stop calling people homophobes because their opinion differs from your yours?

I can imagine that you don't like to have a non-hetero relation. I am a hetero myself. Being trapped into one is not something I would like. ME2 had a better approach to romances than ME1. DA2 even improved on this. So, if it is not forced on you it becomes a choice and thus can be avoided. Maybe that clears up a bit of your first question. About your second question... I can't find rational objections to the way BW handles romances, other than homophobic ones.

Say I wrote a book for the whole world to see.. None of the characters in the story are bisexual or gay. Does that make me a homophobe?

No it doesn't. It's just that I didn't decide to put one in there.

[UsagiVindaloo]

I have a thought question for those who are against the idea of existing characters "coming out" for Shepard, as it were, specifically those who would say "it ruins the character".

Say you have a best friend of the same gender who has so far only shown interest in the opposite gender. You figure they're straight, fair enough. Then one day, perhaps when you both have a few too many beers, or you're about to move away, or something, he/she suddenly drops the bombshell; they have feelings for you someone of the same sex. And they have had them for years, but have been too awkward to admit it. You had absolutely no inkling of this. Your friend does admit that their attraction to the opposite sex was genuine (i.e. it wasn't a front), but there's just something about YOU  this person specifically that they are attracted to.

Do you think this would "change" who your friend is? Do you think it would somehow negate all the interactions you have had up until this point? Would you think of them as straight, bisexual, gay, straight-with-one-exception? Would you complain about bad or lazy writing? (Okay, that's more a joke, but you get the idea) Would it seem unrealistic? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being honest here. These characters may not be our friends, but we've grown with them and are certainly attached to them. If you treated a new aspect of their sexuality the same way you'd treat your friend in the above situation, how would you feel about it?

EDIT: People pointed out justifiably that the main issue here would be feelings for YOU rather than sexual identity, so changed it a bit.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 22 mars 2011 - 07:15 .

[InvaderErl]

Some should, some shouldn't, they shouldn't all be anymore bisexual then they should all be heterosexual.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I have a thought question for those who are against the idea of existing characters "coming out" for Shepard, as it were, specifically those who would say "it ruins the character".

Say you have a best friend of the same gender who has so far only shown interest in the opposite gender. You figure they're straight, fair enough. Then one day, perhaps when you both have a few too many beers, or you're about to move away, or something, he/she suddenly drops the bombshell; they have feelings for you. And they have had them for years, but have been too awkward to admit it. You had absolutely no inkling of this. Your friend does admit that their attraction to the opposite sex was genuine (i.e. it wasn't a front), but there's just something about YOU specifically that they are attracted to.

Do you think this would "change" who your friend is? Do you think it would somehow negate all the interactions you have had up until this point? Would you think of them as straight, bisexual, gay, straight-with-one-exception? Would you complain about bad or lazy writing? (Okay, that's more a joke, but you get the idea) Would it seem unrealistic? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being honest here. These characters may not be our friends, but we've grown with them and are certainly attached to them. If you treated a new aspect of their sexuality the same way you'd treat your friend in the above situation, how would you feel about it?

If my friend was bisexual, and he was attracted to me, yes, I would treat him differently, because now the relationship is different. (if that's what you are asking).

I'm not a homophobe, because I would feel the same way if it was a girl I didn't like that way and I was friends with.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am a bit puzzled by the original post. Unlike some other BW titles I never felt that I was being trapped into a romance by accident. The non-hetero group happens to play games too and thus is a potential market. Instead of ignoring them BW serves them with the same kind of attention and respect as the hetero group. I think that's a good thing and I hope they'll never give in to the homophobes.

Who said anyone was being trapped into a romance?

And who's being a homophobe? No one is doing that here. Can we stop calling people homophobes because their opinion differs from your yours?

I can imagine that you don't like to have a non-hetero relation. I am a hetero myself. Being trapped into one is not something I would like. ME2 had a better approach to romances than ME1. DA2 even improved on this. So, if it is not forced on you it becomes a choice and thus can be avoided. Maybe that clears up a bit of your first question. About your second question... I can't find rational objections to the way BW handles romances, other than homophobic ones.

Say I wrote a book for the whole world to see.. None of the characters in the story are bisexual or gay. Does that make me a homophobe?

No it doesn't. It's just that I didn't decide to put one in there.

But in this case the book is interactive and you have a choise what parts of the book to avoid without missing the story. That's a cool feature. And they have just done that. Pretty neat, don't you think?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I am a bit puzzled by the original post. Unlike some other BW titles I never felt that I was being trapped into a romance by accident. The non-hetero group happens to play games too and thus is a potential market. Instead of ignoring them BW serves them with the same kind of attention and respect as the hetero group. I think that's a good thing and I hope they'll never give in to the homophobes.

Who said anyone was being trapped into a romance?

And who's being a homophobe? No one is doing that here. Can we stop calling people homophobes because their opinion differs from your yours?

I can imagine that you don't like to have a non-hetero relation. I am a hetero myself. Being trapped into one is not something I would like. ME2 had a better approach to romances than ME1. DA2 even improved on this. So, if it is not forced on you it becomes a choice and thus can be avoided. Maybe that clears up a bit of your first question. About your second question... I can't find rational objections to the way BW handles romances, other than homophobic ones.

Say I wrote a book for the whole world to see.. None of the characters in the story are bisexual or gay. Does that make me a homophobe?

No it doesn't. It's just that I didn't decide to put one in there.

But in this case the book is interactive and you have a choise what parts of the book to avoid without missing the story. That's a cool feature. And they have just done that. Pretty neat, don't you think?

It still doesn't make it homophobic.

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...
Missing the point. It's not about having options, it's about having the same options. The same game and experience. What you propose is called segregation. It's like fighting DADT by establishing gay platoons. "Hey, that way you can be openly gay in the military and we don't freak out at the notion that a gay person might be close to us, gays belong in their own pink platoons and we have our own! Neat!" Sorry, it's not acceptable.

You are way too extreme here, you are equating this to real world analogues that have much greater depth and impact than a simple choice of hey I want to sleep with you in the Mass Effect video game.  I am not against your idea of having same sex LIs I am just saying that it should be done well.

Also please stop saying my words on biology are opinions, these are facts, if you choose not believe that is your choice but that is how humanity has operated since the beginning of time.  If it was not the case then we would have no gender discrepency and men and women would be equally sexualised, respected, and/or dsicriminated against.  But obviously that is not the case, gender roles are common and the construct of male and female are very different constructs in relation to each other in most, if not all, societies.  That is all I am saying I am not trying to be negative but it irks me that you are trying to be obtuse on this point.

Back to the point at hand, this is not segregation, this is just the culmination of player choices.  Just because I choose Sole Survivor does not mean that I am also entitled to the War Hero story and the Ruthless story as well.  it just means I made a choice that will make my experience different than yours.  I don't find me not being able to romance Thane as a guy some kind of oppressive gesture on BioWare's point.  I find it as part of the narrative.  If they change that then so be it, do it right and I won't care.

I still think that creating new characters or a player initiated romance would be the better choices and secondly we need a male same sex romance option for parity.  Finally friendship arcs, then relationships will be much more well rounded.

I do not think every character needs to shift based on gender.  Keep the world same, just give more options within it.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 07:16 .

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I have a thought question for those who are against the idea of existing characters "coming out" for Shepard, as it were, specifically those who would say "it ruins the character".

Say you have a best friend of the same gender who has so far only shown interest in the opposite gender. You figure they're straight, fair enough. Then one day, perhaps when you both have a few too many beers, or you're about to move away, or something, he/she suddenly drops the bombshell; they have feelings for you. And they have had them for years, but have been too awkward to admit it. You had absolutely no inkling of this. Your friend does admit that their attraction to the opposite sex was genuine (i.e. it wasn't a front), but there's just something about YOU specifically that they are attracted to.

Do you think this would "change" who your friend is? Do you think it would somehow negate all the interactions you have had up until this point? Would you think of them as straight, bisexual, gay, straight-with-one-exception? Would you complain about bad or lazy writing? (Okay, that's more a joke, but you get the idea) Would it seem unrealistic? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being honest here. These characters may not be our friends, but we've grown with them and are certainly attached to them. If you treated a new aspect of their sexuality the same way you'd treat your friend in the above situation, how would you feel about it?

Yeah it would change our relationship, the same as with a hetero situation.  I think it could be overcome but it would change things.

Also I would turn them down I likewomens and women boobies and womenly things.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I have a thought question for those who are against the idea of existing characters "coming out" for Shepard, as it were, specifically those who would say "it ruins the character".

Say you have a best friend of the same gender who has so far only shown interest in the opposite gender. You figure they're straight, fair enough. Then one day, perhaps when you both have a few too many beers, or you're about to move away, or something, he/she suddenly drops the bombshell; they have feelings for you. And they have had them for years, but have been too awkward to admit it. You had absolutely no inkling of this. Your friend does admit that their attraction to the opposite sex was genuine (i.e. it wasn't a front), but there's just something about YOU specifically that they are attracted to.

Do you think this would "change" who your friend is? Do you think it would somehow negate all the interactions you have had up until this point? Would you think of them as straight, bisexual, gay, straight-with-one-exception? Would you complain about bad or lazy writing? (Okay, that's more a joke, but you get the idea) Would it seem unrealistic? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being honest here. These characters may not be our friends, but we've grown with them and are certainly attached to them. If you treated a new aspect of their sexuality the same way you'd treat your friend in the above situation, how would you feel about it?

If my friend was bisexual, and he was attracted to me, yes, I would treat him differently, because now the relationship is different. (if that's what you are asking).

I'm not a homophobe, because I would feel the same way if it was a girl I didn't like that way and I was friends with.

OK, I'll concede that if the attraction is to you that that can change the relationship somewhat (even though it shouldn't mess with your friendship ). I went for that because I was thinking more in terms of the LIs being attracted to "you"/Shepard.

But what if your buddy happened to mention that they were attracted to a specific guy that wasn't you? (Sorry, am guessing you are male, please correct if wrong) Would that change your opinion of him? Would you think it "changed" him? And if it doesn't... why would it 'change" any of Bioware's characters if the situation is pretty much the same (straight, but develop a massive crush on same-sex-Shepard)?

[jeweledleah]

Nyoka wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
its not going to be delicately done. its going to be pushed in a manner of: "oh but you never heard me say I wasn't, oh and by the way - I've had that boyfriend/girlfriend before you that I just never told you about and I'm not going to tell you about it still, unless you show same sex romantic interest in me" I know that there are plenty of people who actually prefer their npc's to be different from game to game. to me - it completely ruins them. call it meta gaming, but when I play through the game multiple times, exploring different dialogue options, including romance ones when applicable, and then I decide to play a different gender and all of a sudden - the character I've gotten to know pretty well at that point - tells me something I've never once seen any hint of, just because I'm playing a different gender?

Hmmm. I don't get your point. The first part says you don't want to see it done, but then you say its not being done ruins npc's. With 'from game to game' you mean from profile to profile or from ME2 to ME3?

you misunderstood.  I don't want it being done, especialy done "subjectively" because when it IS done, it ruines the characters for me.  and its both from profile to profile and from sequel to sequel.  I like consistancy.  I'm resigned, that I'm not getting it.

I'm pretty sure at this point that character rewrites WILL happen. I just don't know the extent of the changes.

[Nashiktal]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I have a thought question for those who are against the idea of existing characters "coming out" for Shepard, as it were, specifically those who would say "it ruins the character".

Say you have a best friend of the same gender who has so far only shown interest in the opposite gender. You figure they're straight, fair enough. Then one day, perhaps when you both have a few too many beers, or you're about to move away, or something, he/she suddenly drops the bombshell; they have feelings for you. And they have had them for years, but have been too awkward to admit it. You had absolutely no inkling of this. Your friend does admit that their attraction to the opposite sex was genuine (i.e. it wasn't a front), but there's just something about YOU specifically that they are attracted to.

Do you think this would "change" who your friend is? Do you think it would somehow negate all the interactions you have had up until this point? Would you think of them as straight, bisexual, gay, straight-with-one-exception? Would you complain about bad or lazy writing? (Okay, that's more a joke, but you get the idea) Would it seem unrealistic? What would you do?

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm being honest here. These characters may not be our friends, but we've grown with them and are certainly attached to them. If you treated a new aspect of their sexuality the same way you'd treat your friend in the above situation, how would you feel about it?

If my friend was bisexual, and he was attracted to me, yes, I would treat him differently, because now the relationship is different. (if that's what you are asking).

I'm not a homophobe, because I would feel the same way if it was a girl I didn't like that way and I was friends with.

As crass as it sounds, this is actually correct. When the relationship stops being about friends and moves up to "relationship" it changes the dynamic of future social interactions. You might still be friends, but it will forever be different because of that subtle shift in the relationship dynamic.

Edit: Gah twitchy fingers and keyboards don't mix.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 22 mars 2011 - 07:19 .

[coolair74]

Mass Effect 2 project lead Casey Hudson on Gay Relationships in Mass Effect:

Tali is my favorite character. But my Shepard is female and totally in love with her. Why can’t my character engage in a romance with her? Why not have the option to have homosexual relations?

Casey Hudson: Everything new that we add still requires extra content. Some people might argue in a case like that you could just have the same kinds of scenes that just work with different characters. But we wouldn’t really want to have it that way. You’d want to take a proper approach to designing those scenes, otherwise you’d see the same scene. So we kind of pulled back and looked at where we had to draw the line in terms of how much content we make. How much should we support? We actually added a lot more romance options because we have new characters and multiple options already in the romances. So we kind of pulled back and said, "Well, the love interest is part of the story and it helps you care about the characters in a different way." We still view it as... if you’re picturing a PG-13 action movie. That’s how we’re trying to design it. So that’s why the love interest is relatively light. ... That’s another thing we did better than we did before. We really lock you into character. Tali is really interesting because the whole idea of her character and what she’s concerned about and her experience and age -- we kind of factor all those things, and we designed the love interests really around the particular characters because they’re all quite different. So her (love scene) is a little more innocent and fun.

Same Question posed to Bioware head Honcho Ray Muzyka:


Ray Muzyka: In all of BioWare’s games to-date, we’ve enabled a lot of choice. So you look at games going back to Baldur’s Gate, Baldur’s Gate 2, Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, of course... In future games we are going to enable more choice as well. That choice can come as a lot of things, it includes relationships, it includes having an impact on world events, among other things. It’s an important part of our games.

Sometimes, in some of our games, we are going to have a defined character with a more defined view. Almost like a third-person narrative -- where Mass Effect is more in that vein, Dragon Age isn’t in that vein; you could see the differences between the two. It’s just part of the design and the choices made for each game. It doesn’t mean that we’ve in anyway changed our philosophy toward enabling choice. We love giving players choice, and we are going to continue to enable that for future games. That’s a commitment for some of our franchises. For some other franchises we’ve had more defined characters and sort of approaches to things, and they’ve had a more defined personality and a more defined approach to the way they’ve proceed through the game and the world.

Some game franchises are going to be slightly different but that’s part of our effort to diversify the portfolio and enable some franchises to have some more choice and some of them are around defining a more specific character, sort of a first-person versus third-person kind of narrative, but we know how important it is to our players to have that choice and we are going to continue to support that. We believe in diversity and we believe in enabling choices for our fans, it’s important to us.


Basically what they are saying is that Mass Effect has a finite Main protagonist, he/she is the way he is and that is that. Dragon Age was a bit more liberal.

Modifié par coolair74, 22 mars 2011 - 07:19 .

[jlb524]

I disagree that having the LIs as bisexual 'cheapens' the romances (IMO, the DA2 romances were all much better than the ME2 ones...better written and executed in game with more content). If anything, the ME2 romances felt a bit cheap and rushed due to the fact they couldn't even begin until after the stupid loyalty missions.

Still, if you fear your precious Tali will be bisexual in ME3 and you then have to *shock and horror* 'share' her with female Shepard, that won't happen.

[trickfred]

Naltair wrote...

trickfred wrote...
And for those that say it would be against his character, well, have you seen how emotionally Kaidan reacts to a DudeShep on Horizon in ME2? I totally believe he could be bisexual, based on that alone.

Terrible reasoning, men can't be emotional for other men?

If I thought one of my best friends died and I saw them again I would be super emotional too, that does not mean I have a torch for him or want to secretly sleep with him.

Sure, I'd be emotional, but 'losing you was like losing a limb' for example, at least to me, implied an intimacy level that I would consider reserved for family or romantic interests. Maybe I should have phrased that a little better, but hopefully you understand what I meant now.

Regardless, I still think there would really be no issue with making that particular character open for same sex romancing. He won't even be in a large portion of people's ME3 games anyways, and those with DudeSheps that do have him, had to choose for him to be there.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

OK, I'll concede that if the attraction is to you that that can change the relationship somewhat (even though it shouldn't mess with your friendship ). I went for that because I was thinking more in terms of the LIs being attracted to "you"/Shepard.

But what if your buddy happened to mention that they were attracted to a specific guy that wasn't you? (Sorry, am guessing you are male, please correct if wrong) Would that change your opinion of him? Would you think it "changed" him? And if it doesn't... why would it 'change" any of Bioware's characters if the situation is pretty much the same (straight, but develop a massive crush on same-sex-Shepard)?

I hate to say it but yeah it would change my opinion of him, not really a negative one but just different.  I think for many people it would change how you see someone.

Just like if your mother or father or sister came out and say they were gay, bisexual, transexual... it changes something about that person.  It changes your conception of them. it may not be a bad thing but it will in most cases change your idea of them.