1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I wish we could at least reach a common ground where we agreed that:

1) New bisexual or gay love interests would be awesome (that seems to be generally accepted at least) and
2) There are at least one or two existing LIs who could arguably be attracted to a same sex Shepard (and not reveal it) without it changing much of their character. My money would be on Tali (who canonically blushes and gets flustered over Fem!Shepard, could easily be hiding a crush) and Garrus (who has already had the, "Well, if it's SHEPARD, that's different," rationale built into his character).

Keep the rest straight as arrows if you will, but I like to think that the above would be a compromise that would keep almost everyone happy (well, except Shepards pining over the "wrong" VS or the ME2 LIs, I guess )

1) I stated multiple times in this thread that I am fine with new characters that are bi or gay.
2) I can't agree with you on Tali or Garrus.

Then I think we just have to agree to disagree. I have stated numerous times that I feel that there has already been ample evidence (or at least lack of counter-evidence) to suggest that Tali has a crush on FemShep and that Garrus is Shepard-sexual. If these characters were "suddenly" bisexual, it would not feel like a change. It would feel like something that was always there, always part of the characters, and would not be at all surprising. In fact, I think my actual response would be, "Duh, obviously."

You can feel however you want but there is no evidence point to Garrus being anything but strait, same with Tali, there is a difference in respect and wanting to bump uglies.

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait as a small % of the population are Bi.
Tali could be Bi, but since she only comes onto Male Shepard, we must conclude she is strait as stated above since we have a lack of any evidence pointing to her being bi.

Actually Tali has all the exact same reactions  to fem shep as male shep. The only difference is that Fem shep cant choose the specific options to go down the romance path with her. Its almost as if she was a LI at some point before release or something. Tali easily seems Bi just as she easily became a love interest in 2.

[UsagiVindaloo]

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I wish we could at least reach a common ground where we agreed that:

1) New bisexual or gay love interests would be awesome (that seems to be generally accepted at least) and
2) There are at least one or two existing LIs who could arguably be attracted to a same sex Shepard (and not reveal it) without it changing much of their character. My money would be on Tali (who canonically blushes and gets flustered over Fem!Shepard, could easily be hiding a crush) and Garrus (who has already had the, "Well, if it's SHEPARD, that's different," rationale built into his character).

Keep the rest straight as arrows if you will, but I like to think that the above would be a compromise that would keep almost everyone happy (well, except Shepards pining over the "wrong" VS or the ME2 LIs, I guess )

1) I stated multiple times in this thread that I am fine with new characters that are bi or gay.
2) I can't agree with you on Tali or Garrus.

Then I think we just have to agree to disagree. I have stated numerous times that I feel that there has already been ample evidence (or at least lack of counter-evidence) to suggest that Tali has a crush on FemShep and that Garrus is Shepard-sexual. If these characters were "suddenly" bisexual, it would not feel like a change. It would feel like something that was always there, always part of the characters, and would not be at all surprising. In fact, I think my actual response would be, "Duh, obviously."

You can feel however you want but there is no evidence point to Garrus being anything but strait, same with Tali, there is a difference in respect and wanting to bump uglies.

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait as a small % of the population are Bi.
Tali could be Bi, but since she only comes onto Male Shepard, we must conclude she is strait as stated above since we have a lack of any evidence pointing to her being bi.

At the same time, there's no evidence saying that they're NOT bisexual. And in fact, Tali does *almost* come onto Female Shepard (though gets too flustered to do anything with it). I play it safe and assume that characters may be either straight or bisexual unless they specifically indicate that they do not like the same sex.

[thedistortedchild]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I made this thread because I was a little worried after DA2 (my opinion only)

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a homophobe. This is just how I feel. This is not homophobic. Anybody who calls me one is just as bad as the ones who ARE anti gay.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. :innocent:

Why? For the following reasons:

1. It cheapens the romances.
2. The romances lose their uniqueness (kind of like 1, but whatever)

1. Um, no it doesn't... unless I'm missing something. Please explain.
2. The DA2 romances were underdeveloped, the DA2 friendships were underdeveloped, DA2 was under developed. the romances were not unique because of development time not because of PC's gender.

3. It's unrealistic. Not everyone in life is bisexual. (it's a game, sure, but ME should be one of the realistic kind)

 
Not everyone in the game is bisexual. If you persue them they are interested in your PC nomatter gender. If you don't persue them then who cares what thier prefereces are.

4. If it happened, there would be arguments over whether Manshep or Femshep is better with x character.

So? Conversations are held over BioWares characters, how is this a bad thing?

5. DA2 tried this, but if you ask me, it didn't feel as good as the ME romances.

see response # 1

6. It's a bit late to make them bi in ME3. ME1 was released in 2007 or something. If they were going to be bi, it should have been then.

Kaiden, Jack, Ashley, Liara, Tali were all supposed to be (or in Liara's case were) Bi.

7. Wouldn't it be awkward if the LIs were just suddenly bi? It would seem like it was done just to appease people (which is LAME)
EDIT:
8. If at least ONE person that could have been bi, it should have been Jack (my opinion)

see above.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[James2912]

Bisexuality was controversial yesterday bestiality is now the next big thing for mass effect! Think about it if kelly can **** a Varren why can't my shep?

Related question would boinking an elcor be bestiality.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

At the same time, there's no evidence saying that they're NOT bisexual. And in fact, Tali does *almost* come onto Female Shepard (though gets too flustered to do anything with it). I play it safe and assume that characters may be either straight or bisexual unless they specifically indicate that they do not like the same sex.

Interpretation of that given situation.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Yeah, I've been wondering about the whole stuff where characters were originally meant to be Bi, but changed at the last minute. On the one hand, I admit that it could strengthen the "straight or GTFO" crowd because Bioware obviously made a conscious choice to restrict the options. On the other hand, WHY did they do it? Is it because "Kaidan is definitely straight and it makes no sense for him to be bi"? Is it, "We wanted to make them bi but we ran out of time and money so, um, yeah, sorry?" Or is it, "We hear that straight male gamers have inexplicable problems with male characters falling in love, so we'll just avoid the whole thing"? I'd say the first one may be worth listening to, but the second two leaves it way open to what Bioware originally intended (i.e. if they fully intended to make Kaidan bi, then certainly they left that open in his character, no matter what the programming might say)

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I wish we could at least reach a common ground where we agreed that:

1) New bisexual or gay love interests would be awesome (that seems to be generally accepted at least) and
2) There are at least one or two existing LIs who could arguably be attracted to a same sex Shepard (and not reveal it) without it changing much of their character. My money would be on Tali (who canonically blushes and gets flustered over Fem!Shepard, could easily be hiding a crush) and Garrus (who has already had the, "Well, if it's SHEPARD, that's different," rationale built into his character).

Keep the rest straight as arrows if you will, but I like to think that the above would be a compromise that would keep almost everyone happy (well, except Shepards pining over the "wrong" VS or the ME2 LIs, I guess )

1) I stated multiple times in this thread that I am fine with new characters that are bi or gay.
2) I can't agree with you on Tali or Garrus.

Then I think we just have to agree to disagree. I have stated numerous times that I feel that there has already been ample evidence (or at least lack of counter-evidence) to suggest that Tali has a crush on FemShep and that Garrus is Shepard-sexual. If these characters were "suddenly" bisexual, it would not feel like a change. It would feel like something that was always there, always part of the characters, and would not be at all surprising. In fact, I think my actual response would be, "Duh, obviously."

You can feel however you want but there is no evidence point to Garrus being anything but strait, same with Tali, there is a difference in respect and wanting to bump uglies.

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait as a small % of the population are Bi.
Tali could be Bi, but since she only comes onto Male Shepard, we must conclude she is strait as stated above since we have a lack of any evidence pointing to her being bi.

At the same time, there's no evidence saying that they're NOT bisexual. And in fact, Tali does *almost* come onto Female Shepard (though gets too flustered to do anything with it). I play it safe and assume that characters may be either straight or bisexual unless they specifically indicate that they do not like the same sex.

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait.

As stated above , that is the evidence. In an enviroment where there is a lack of information, Occams Razor is applied.

Tali , Ill concede this one, i havent played a femshep so I cant tell you about her goings on in the alternate reality. They very well could have intended her to be bi but the devs did not want any controversy to surround thier flagship game.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Yeah, I've been wondering about the whole stuff where characters were originally meant to be Bi, but changed at the last minute. On the one hand, I admit that it could strengthen the "straight or GTFO" crowd because Bioware obviously made a conscious choice to restrict the options. On the other hand, WHY did they do it? Is it because "Kaidan is definitely straight and it makes no sense for him to be bi"? Is it, "We wanted to make them bi but we ran out of time and money so, um, yeah, sorry?" Or is it, "We hear that straight male gamers have inexplicable problems with male characters falling in love, so we'll just avoid the whole thing"? I'd say the first one may be worth listening to, but the second two leaves it way open to what Bioware originally intended (i.e. if they fully intended to make Kaidan bi, then certainly they left that open in his character, no matter what the programming might say)

Last minute is a fan interpretation considering most of the dialogue was recorded probably a year in advance it was probably not a last minute decision but a calclulated one during the mid cycle of development.  They left it open, they decided against it and just left it alone.

I doubt it was a scramble in December before launch to remove the same sex relationships.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Yeah, I've been wondering about the whole stuff where characters were originally meant to be Bi, but changed at the last minute. On the one hand, I admit that it could strengthen the "straight or GTFO" crowd because Bioware obviously made a conscious choice to restrict the options. On the other hand, WHY did they do it? Is it because "Kaidan is definitely straight and it makes no sense for him to be bi"? Is it, "We wanted to make them bi but we ran out of time and money so, um, yeah, sorry?" Or is it, "We hear that straight male gamers have inexplicable problems with male characters falling in love, so we'll just avoid the whole thing"? I'd say the first one may be worth listening to, but the second two leaves it way open to what Bioware originally intended (i.e. if they fully intended to make Kaidan bi, then certainly they left that open in his character, no matter what the programming might say)

For Mass Effect , the devs were adamate that it was put out as developed. They wrote Male Shepard a strait male who had 2 LI's. Femshep also had 2 LI's but one of em looks like a girl, even though she isnt a girl. They took alot of crap for that lesbo love scene.

Nothing they wanted to repeat for ME2, they stuck to thier guns and left well enough alone, and then some douche thought up Yoeman Kelly.  WHY WHY WHY?   Teenage boyz ****** ****** ******

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

I don't think that it's a crush. I see it this way (with my own experience):

Let's say my best friend who's the same sex as me. We got a lot of things in common, and we enjoy each other's company.

If he was a girl, I might be attracted to him in a romance way. But because he is not, no. Does this mean that I'm potentially bi? No. If things were different (as in him being the opposite gender), I might have an interest.

So no, I don't think that's a good enough reason of Tali being potentially bi.

[twisty77]

Can I just point out that it has been your choice who you romance all the way through the ME series through your dialogue, and that it probably won't change in ME3? I know this discussion is moving at light speed so there's a chance you won't see it, but I still think it's worth noting.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Lee337 wrote...

I don't think characters should be changed just to suit the person playing.They shouldn't make Garrus bisexual to suit the homsosexual croud, just as they shouldn't make Ashley love aliens to suit the people who call her rasist, I think its better to have set characters rather than characters who just change thier opinons to whatever you want them to be, life isn't like that. Homosexuality is still a minority, so while I'm no opposed to characters being homosexual or bisexual, not every character should be.

This is also a point I would like to make.

[UsagiVindaloo]

[quote]coolair74 wrote...

[/quote]

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait.

[/quote]

No. Since Garrus has had girlfriends, I must conclude that he likes women.

Liking women does not preclude liking men as well. He might have had boyfriends and just not mentioned them.

Now, if Garrus openly says, "Not into guys," that is different. THEN he is definitely and explicitly straight. Until then, all I know is that he likes women. That can mean a variety of different sexualities (straight, bi, or straight-with-single-exception)

[Naltair]

I am all for everyone have the choice, I just don't agree with making everyone bisexual, open to every gender. I do think we need a male same sex choice long before another female one.

I also want more fulfilling friendship tracks.

[Manic Sheep]

I sort of agree, I have no issue with SS romances and I would have no issue with some of characters being bi but I don’t think they should all be bi. Having ever character bi and all of them fall for the PC just makes them feel less real and like there for you to toy with IMO. It’s not a huge issue tho, I’m not going to scream at bioware if they do make all the characters bi I would just prefer they didn’t.

If they introduced new characters that were bi or gay or lesbian I would have no issue with it. If they make existing characters that is not a LI and whose sexuality we have never gone into and have them bi I would also have wouldn’t have an issue. You could make existing LI’s Bi. you could have that they had been hiding it for whatever reason or maybe they prefer the opposite sex but now like you enough to try a SS romance with you or something but if they did do that I think it would just feel like bioware was throwing them to the fans. Still they might be able to pull this one off and it could be interesting.If they do this tho they should do it properly not just all of a sudden make them Bi with not explination and give them a tacked on romance. I just don’t want everyone being Bi.
I don’t want everyone to like Shepard regardless of what you do either and glad Samara turns you down. Having characters develop relationships with other characters would be good to. Rather than having just Shep getting all the action.

They should add a homosexual character IMO. I don’t think I have ever seen a game that gives a strictly homosexual romance option.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 22 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[twisty77]

Naltair wrote...

I am all for everyone have the choice, I just don't agree with making everyone bisexual, open to every gender. I do think we need a male same sex choice long before another female one.

I also want more fulfilling friendship tracks.

Why's that? No more asking Garrus to talk and him saying he's in the middle of some calibrations?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Naltair wrote...

I am all for everyone have the choice, I just don't agree with making everyone bisexual, open to every gender. I do think we need a male same sex choice long before another female one.

I also want more fulfilling friendship tracks.

I'm a straight male, and I do agree that there SHOULD be a same sex for Manshep, just not one of the pre-existing characters.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Why do you want lizard sex?  Just curious.

I enjoyed Miranda and Liara through the DLC.

The other 2 were kinda empty, I cant stand Jack and Tali was just awkward, what if she looks like walrus or something? I got a feeling she is gonna look like an Elf, I just have a hunch.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

No. Since Garrus has had girlfriends, I must conclude that he likes women.

Liking women does not preclude liking men as well. He might have had boyfriends and just not mentioned them.

Now, if Garrus openly says, "Not into guys," that is different. THEN he is definitely and explicitly straight. Until then, all I know is that he likes women. That can mean a variety of different sexualities (straight, bi, or straight-with-single-exception)

Most people make the safe assumption that if you are a guy who is visibly into women you are straight, and vice versa.

You don't need to declare it, in fact challenging someone on their sexuality in a serious sense is usally seen as rude in most places.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

I don't think that it's a crush. I see it this way (with my own experience):

Let's say my best friend who's the same sex as me. We got a lot of things in common, and we enjoy each other's company.

If he was a girl, I might be attracted to him in a romance way. But because he is not, no. Does this mean that I'm potentially bi? No. If things were different (as in him being the opposite gender), I might have an interest.

So no, I don't think that's a good enough reason of Tali being potentially bi.

So, you take it as equivalent of bromance (what would that be? Sismance?)

I took a different interpretation from it, which is fine, we can agree to disagree as we have already. I'm just saying that while you might react to bi!Tali with, "What? That's totally out of left field and changes the character completely!" I would react to it with, "Saw that coming back in ME1." So just a gentle reminder that one player's epic bromance is another person's tender seekings-out ready to bloom into full flown romance in due course. Neither are "wrong," so claiming as such or saying that "this interpretation is wrong" is dismissive of other players' experiences and observations.

[Quole]

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Why do you want lizard sex?  Just curious.

I enjoyed Miranda and Liara through the DLC.

The other 2 were kinda empty, I cant stand Jack and Tali was just awkward, what if she looks like walrus or something? I got a feeling she is gonna look like an Elf, I just have a hunch.

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

[Naltair]

Just because someone likes me or is even very close to me does not mean they want to do me regardless of gender. Sometimes that is all it needs to be, just a good/close friendship that is fulfilling.

[Lee337]

Quole wrote...

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

Clearly you've never romanced Jacob!