1677 réponses à ce sujet

[coolair74]

[quote]UsagiVindaloo wrote...

[quote]coolair74 wrote...

[/quote]

Since Garrus has had girlfriends you must conclude that he at least Strait.

[/quote]

No. Since Garrus has had girlfriends, I must conclude that he likes women.

Liking women does not preclude liking men as well. He might have had boyfriends and just not mentioned them.

Now, if Garrus openly says, "Not into guys," that is different. THEN he is definitely and explicitly straight. Until then, all I know is that he likes women. That can mean a variety of different sexualities (straight, bi, or straight-with-single-exception)
[/quote]


Yeah , I dont like that assumption. Go with statistics. We know he likes girls, odds are he dont like dudes. Ill go with strait, totally strait.

[Quole]

Lee337 wrote...

Quole wrote...

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

Clearly you've never romanced Jacob!

lol. Yeah.. I`ll admit I havent. I take it its pretty bad?

Modifié par Quole, 22 mars 2011 - 08:09 .

[Nashiktal]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Considering the flustered "crush" is the same for both sheps, I would say Tali was at least BI at some point in development.

[coolair74]

Lee337 wrote...

Quole wrote...

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

Clearly you've never romanced Jacob!

Jacob could have been replaced by a plank of wood and no one would have noticed.

[Lee337]

Quole wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Quole wrote...

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

Clearly you've never romanced Jacob!

lol. Yeah.. I`ll admit I havent. It take it its pretty bad?

Awful. Really really awful. But I do like how he got really angry when I said I was breaking up with him for Garrus.

[coolair74]

Quole wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Why do you want lizard sex?  Just curious.

I enjoyed Miranda and Liara through the DLC.

The other 2 were kinda empty, I cant stand Jack and Tali was just awkward, what if she looks like walrus or something? I got a feeling she is gonna look like an Elf, I just have a hunch.

Miranda was the most empty romance in the game

Nah she is just a ball buster. I dig it.  You cant deny that is best rear end in the galaxy.

[UsagiVindaloo]

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Why do you want lizard sex?  Just curious.

I enjoyed Miranda and Liara through the DLC.

The other 2 were kinda empty, I cant stand Jack and Tali was just awkward, what if she looks like walrus or something? I got a feeling she is gonna look like an Elf, I just have a hunch.

Well, I always thought Garrus was a wonderful character, a sort of savage idealist at times (he has ideas of how the world SHOULD work and in ME1 was still struggling to figure out how to make it work that way, whether to bludgeon his way through or work with the system). He and my male Shepard have been extremely close friends and bros in every sense of the word. Now I'm not saying that that MUST mean they are totally gay for each other, but if the option arose, my maleShepard would seriously consider it just because he trusts Garrus so totally and knows they are a great fit personality wise etc. Plus there's the intrigue over, well, how would they, you know, do it? There were some really loud fangirl screams when femShep/Garrus faded to black, let me tell ya. "Wait, how do they kiss? How do his clothes come off? What are they going to talk about? Are they going to be more lovey-dovey or are they still keeping up the pretense of letting off steam? Damnit, Bioware, this is a worse ****block than my M!Shep/Tali!"

I loved every single LI in both games except for Ashley, Jacob, and Miranda. Ashley always got under my skin and irritated me, Miranda was (to me) annoying and "perfect", and Jacob... well, Jacob actually might have had a shot were it not for THE PRIIIIIZE. All the others, though, are amazing. I absolutely adore Garrus and Tali's romances, the LotSB romance for Liara was so poignant that I felt like a tool for going for Tali instead, Kaidan's a completel sweetheart, Thane makes my fangirl heart wibble, and the Paragon romance for Jack makes me want to smile and cry at the same time. I'm playing through the game SIX TIMES just to get enough of my romance fix. I just wish other players didn't end up so restricted if they wanted to pursuse same sex relationships.

[Naltair]

Jacob, Garrus, and Grunt would be my dream team for my dream project...

Hangover III: Lost in Omega

[CroGamer002]

I agree.

I find having EVERY romance bisexual unrealistic.
And I almost throw up when Anders gay romance in DA2 was subtle as getting hit by a train.

Modifié par Mesina2, 22 mars 2011 - 08:12 .

[Naltair]

Mesina2 wrote...

I agree.

I find having EVERY romance bisexual unrealistic.
And I almost throw up when Anders gay romance in DA2 was subtle as getting hit by a train.

I excuted Anders because I am convinced he was a cylon duplicate.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

Jacob, Garrus, and Grunt would be my dream team for my dream project...

Hangover III: Lost in Omega

I would play this game. I would play the living crap out of this game.

I'm not denying that sometimes a deep loving friendship is just a deep loving friendship. On the other hand, if someone wants to say that that deep loving friendship could be something more, I'm not about to quibble. That's the beauty of the dialog wheel; if Jacob looks deep in your eyes and says he'll be with you to the end, you have the option to respond "BROS FOR LYFE" before getting drunk and fistbumping each other or saying "KISS ME YOU FOOL" and giving Tali a show down in engineering.

... well, that's a joke, but you get the idea. The option for romance can be kept as nothing more than an option, one that never has to be explored if you don't want to.

I will actually say that I do agree with your point that I'm not sure making the ENTIRE crew bi is a great solution; Miranda's interactions with female Shepard, for example, don't really seem to lead well into unresolved feelings. But I do think that there are a few existing squadmates that, if they started showing interest in ME3, would be more of a, "Huh, guess I can see where that came from," than "WTF SUDDENLY SEXUALITY."

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Fair enough. Though I am genuinely curious, what do you think about Tali's canonical crush on Female Shepard? Or do you take a different reading from her flustered reaction about the suit environments? I always took that to be outright crush territory and figured Tali's feelings were canon, but maybe someone else got something else from it?

Or she could just flustered that she has gained a true friend and would like to show it by merging suits like her mother did with that Admiral.  Tali has shown that she isn't exactly super competant in her own personal relationships.

How I read it.  maybe a sudden realization that a human is her best friend in the whole galaxy can be a jarring one.  Just as say a Jewish man and a German Soldier man from the 40's could come to terms during World War II and even become friends given the right circumstance despite all evidence saying they should be enemies.

Consider that most species, even humans, consider Quarians to be drifter gutter trash would make that gesture even more significant.

Fair enough. I interpreted it as a sort of schoolgirl crush, myself. Now schoolgirl crushes don't always actually come to anything... heck, sometimes they're not even sexual. But if Tali suddenly admitted feelings in ME3 to my female Shepard, I would not be in the least bit shocked.

I actually confess that I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I prefer my straight Shepard romances (though I'm not going to lie, if Garrus was romanceable for guys, my main Shepard would be ALL OVER THAT).

But my feeling is this: I love the straight romances in this game. They've given me so much pleasure. Why would I not want other players - gay players, lesbian players, players who just want something different - to have the same joy in this game as I do? If introducing this element makes them happy while not decreasing my happiness (which it doesn't; my Shepard has a mouth with which he can tell a guy, "no thanks" and I find it in character for many of these characters to be bi), then there's no reason not to keep the options open.

Why do you want lizard sex?  Just curious.

I enjoyed Miranda and Liara through the DLC.

The other 2 were kinda empty, I cant stand Jack and Tali was just awkward, what if she looks like walrus or something? I got a feeling she is gonna look like an Elf, I just have a hunch.

Well, I always thought Garrus was a wonderful character, a sort of savage idealist at times (he has ideas of how the world SHOULD work and in ME1 was still struggling to figure out how to make it work that way, whether to bludgeon his way through or work with the system). He and my male Shepard have been extremely close friends and bros in every sense of the word. Now I'm not saying that that MUST mean they are totally gay for each other, but if the option arose, my maleShepard would seriously consider it just because he trusts Garrus so totally and knows they are a great fit personality wise etc. Plus there's the intrigue over, well, how would they, you know, do it? There were some really loud fangirl screams when femShep/Garrus faded to black, let me tell ya. "Wait, how do they kiss? How do his clothes come off? What are they going to talk about? Are they going to be more lovey-dovey or are they still keeping up the pretense of letting off steam? Damnit, Bioware, this is a worse ****block than my M!Shep/Tali!"

I loved every single LI in both games except for Ashley, Jacob, and Miranda. Ashley always got under my skin and irritated me, Miranda was (to me) annoying and "perfect", and Jacob... well, Jacob actually might have had a shot were it not for THE PRIIIIIZE. All the others, though, are amazing. I absolutely adore Garrus and Tali's romances, the LotSB romance for Liara was so poignant that I felt like a tool for going for Tali instead, Kaidan's a completel sweetheart, Thane makes my fangirl heart wibble, and the Paragon romance for Jack makes me want to smile and cry at the same time. I'm playing through the game SIX TIMES just to get enough of my romance fix. I just wish other players didn't end up so restricted if they wanted to pursuse same sex relationships.

What you may not get is that you are playing a part, not creating a toon like in DA. Male Shep is strait and Devs had stated that more than once. So I dont think youll be seeing any M/M LI's pop up in ME3, but they might give in who knows. I wish I could site the source but I read that a year ago and cant find it now

As with any part you are given parameters to work with, one of which was strait LI's.  They did bend that abit with Dumb Kelly, poor dumb Kelly, if it wernt for the rest of the crew id let the collecters turn her to goo.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

This thread has lasted this long? Amazing. This thread is now




That awesome.

[CroGamer002]

Naltair wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I agree.

I find having EVERY romance bisexual unrealistic.
And I almost throw up when Anders gay romance in DA2 was subtle as getting hit by a train.

I excuted Anders because I am convinced he was a cylon duplicate.

Well I only told him to GTFO.

[Naltair]

There is no middle ground with you Nyoka, I have made my point what you want is some crazy symbolic gesture on BioWare's behalf for the betterment of same sex relationships everywhere. I am sorry but that will not happen not in this lifetime. Not as long as BioWare wants to make money.

You are way too extreme on this subject and segregation I have relatives that lived through it, and for you to equate this game to that is insulting on so many levels I am not even sure where to start. This game and BioWare are both light years ahead of what most companies would even try in a video game meant for a mass audience.

I won't agree with you, I do think giving options is great but I will not say that it is mandatory. I do think that if they go that route the male same sex option should be rectified. What you want is not equality but just a game decision taking precedence over the narrative integrity. I will not agree to that.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

coolair74 wrote...

What you may not get is that you are playing a part, not creating a toon like in DA. Male Shep is strait and Devs had stated that more than once. So I dont think youll be seeing any M/M LI's pop up in ME3, but they might give in who knows. I wish I could site the source but I read that a year ago and cant find it now

As with any part you are given parameters to work with, one of which was strait LI's.  They did bend that abit with Dumb Kelly, poor dumb Kelly, if it wernt for the rest of the crew id let the collecters turn her to goo.

I guess what I'm wondering is, if what you're saying is true and we're all just playing a part, then why can we alter so much else about that part? Not the appearance, but the way he behaves, his background, his military exploits... there's a lot about Shepard's personality that we DO have total control over. Why not this part? What, in your honest opinion, makes Shepard's straightness more important and set-in-stone than the fact that, say, he grew up in the slums of Earth or that he survived a Thresher Maw attack?

This isn't me being snarky, I'm genuinely curious. You have taken a strong position that Male Shepard is STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT (btw, it's spelled with "gh"; "strait" is actually a body of water ;-)), and given the weird interview with Bioware, I suppose I can understand why, but I'm genuinely confused as to why THIS was the sticking point vs. all the other alterable aspects to his character.

I suspect the answer is going to be, "Well, this one thing could alienate straight male players." In which case... is that REALLY something we as players want to accept and say, "Yeah, that's fine?" Wouldn't it be better to say, "Yo, Bioware, we're straight male gamers, and we have no problem with being able to choose Shepard's sexuality as long as we can still choose to bone hot alien women" or whatever you straight men like to do?

[Naltair]

I think the issue is that BioWare left the option open for Liara in ME1 but gave no option for male Shepards in either game. They also threw Kelly into the mix.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Naltair wrote...

There is no middle ground with you Nyoka, I have made my point what you want is some crazy symbolic gesture on BioWare's behalf for the betterment of same sex relationships everywhere. I am sorry but that will not happen not in this lifetime. Not as long as BioWare wants to make money.

You are way too extreme on this subject and segregation I have relatives that lived through it, and for you to equate this game to that is insulting on so many levels I am not even sure where to start. This game and BioWare are both light years ahead of what most companies would even try in a video game meant for a mass audience.

I won't agree with you, I do think giving options is great but I will not say that it is mandatory. I do think that if they go that route the male same sex option should be rectified. What you want is not equality but just a game decision taking precedence over the narrative integrity. I will not agree to that.

[mopotter]

I would be happy to have them include new Bi-sexual romances in ME3. Or even new characters who are gay and lesbian.

I will not be happy if the character from ME1 or even ME2 are changed in ME3 just to appease people who are not happy. I realize that my happiness is of no concern to people who want Ash or Kaidan to have sex with their same sex Shepard but too bad. If they can pout and that is what they are doing, so can I.

I'd be happy to have a new bisexual love interest for my Male Shepard who has been denied a romance because no one was available. But it is really REALLY irritating to have a defined character like Ash or Kaidan suddenly turning bisexual just because someone has done more yelling than i have.

I do agree a new character should be brought in for ME3 who is bi-sexual or even outright homosexual. It would be the only new characters I'd be interested in seeing. Well developed new characters, not pre-existing ones.

Turning Kaidan and Ash bi-sexual is the same idea as telling a guy who is gay or a women who is a lesbin - you just haven't found the right person of the opposite sex, as if it's a choice and not part of them, only they want to say, you just haven't met the right same sex partner. Just because it's a video game does not make this idea right.

And don't try to say - it's just a choice, if you don't want to do it don't. That's crap. That idea is assuming that we don't play multiple Shepards with different characteristics and we don't remember one game from another. Characters should be consistent, no matter how many games you play.

I've also heard the "Kaidan was supposed to be bi-sexual" Supposed to - doesn't cut it. He was not bisexual in ME1 and in ME3 they should continue this, not jump the shark and turn him and Ash into something they were not just because they can.

I played JE. they did this with Sky, I hated it. I played DA2 they did this with all 4 romances and I dislike it.

I loved Zev and Leliana. They were openly bi-sexual no mater how many games I play their personality is set. My male warden romanced Zev and my Female warden romanced him, He was always consistent.

And it does affect the way you play the game. I know I can romance any one of the characters in DA2 as my Male Hawke and I won't because those characters are not openly bisexual. And I won't mess up my idea of the two male characters for my female Hawke. This cuts down the number of times I'll re-play the game. Character consistency is far more important to me and if one of them had been like Zev or even just interested in my male Hawke, I'd have played that role. But I won't switch teams just based on my character.

Taking a developed character like Kaidan or Ash and suddenly turning them bi-sexual is a cop out, a cheap demeaning way to try and satisfy one group without doing the work a new character would require, and I really hope they don't do anything like this in the final game. I'll still buy it, but it will put another stake in my BioWare idealism.

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...

People were defending "completely absent" and I argued against it. Then people offered me "well okay, present but segregated". Am I supposed to thank you for making that offer?

"Will not happen in our lifetime"? Then why did it happen in Jade Empire?

I was being hyperbolic, oviously.

As to segrgation you brought that in here no one else did.  The genders are different, Shepard is treated mostly the same but many characters do react differently based on the gender chosen.  I am curious how this is segregation?

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...

"using segregation is insulting" The circumstances are different, the consequences are different, but the reasoning is the same. Sorry, you are using segregationist reasoning. I know it's insulting. I'm being insulted right now by being offered a segregationist "middle ground".

You just took this topic to a level I am not sure anyone but yourself really wants to go.  

[UsagiVindaloo]

Nyoka wrote...

People were defending "completely absent" and I argued against it. Then people offered me "well okay, present but segregated". Am I supposed to thank you for making that offer?

I think part of the problem, Nyoka, is that while you are arguing from a Schrodinger's Sexuality perspective (i.e. the sexuality of the NPCs is undecided until you create a character, at which point they align to the proper sexuality), they are arguing from the concept of a persistent world, where character elements are fixed from playthrough to playthrough: Jack is crazy, Tali is cute and flusterable, Garrus Does Women, etc. Thus they are thinking in terms of all characters being all alignments because as long as it's possible in one playthrough, it's possible in all. Or something.

I admit that I am also a fan of the "persistant" world theory and prefer not to play double think with each playthrough. I also am not sure that EVERY character should realign sexuality in every playthrough. However, I do agree that handing over "segregated" LIs is not much of a solution either. I also think that several of the existing characters already show potential for bisexuality (or, at least, Shepard sexuality) and could be easily "tweaked" to be options for all players. I think an idea situation would be something like the first DA; a good number of bisexual options along with one or two characters that only like one gender.