1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

mopotter wrote...

I would be happy to have them include new Bi-sexual romances in ME3. Or even new characters who are gay and lesbian. I will not be happy if the character from ME1 or even ME2 are changed in ME3 just to appease people who are not happy. I realize that my happiness is of no concern to people who want Ash or Kaidan to have sex with their same sex Shepard but too bad. If they can pout and that is what they are doing, so can I.I'd be happy to have a new bisexual love interest for my Male Shepard who has been denied a romance because no one was available. But it is really REALLY irritating to have a defined character like Ash or Kaidan suddenly turning bisexual just because someone has done more yelling than i have.I do agree a new character should be brought in for ME3 who is bi-sexual or even outright homosexual. It would be the only new characters I'd be interested in seeing. Well developed new characters, not pre-existing ones.Turning Kaidan and Ash bi-sexual is the same idea as telling a guy who is gay or a women who is a lesbin - you just haven't found the right person of the opposite sex, as if it's a choice and not part of them, only they want to say, you just haven't met the right same sex partner. Just because it's a video game does not make this idea right. And don't try to say - it's just a choice, if you don't want to do it don't. That's crap. That idea is assuming that we don't play multiple Shepards with different characteristics and we don't remember one game from another. Characters should be consistent, no matter how many games you play. I've also heard the "Kaidan was supposed to be bi-sexual" Supposed to - doesn't cut it. He was not bisexual in ME1 and in ME3 they should continue this, not jump the shark and turn him and Ash into something they were not just because they can. I played JE. they did this with Sky, I hated it. I played DA2 they did this with all 4 romances and I dislike it. I loved Zev and Leliana. They were openly bi-sexual no mater how many games I play their personality is set. My male warden romanced Zev and my Female warden romanced him, He was always consistent. And it does affect the way you play the game. I know I can romance any one of the characters in DA2 as my Male Hawke and I won't because those characters are not openly bisexual. And I won't mess up my idea of the two male characters for my female Hawke. This cuts down the number of times I'll re-play the game. Character consistency is far more important to me and if one of them had been like Zev or even just interested in my male Hawke, I'd have played that role. But I won't switch teams just based on my character. Taking a developed character like Kaidan or Ash and suddenly turning them bi-sexual is a cop out, a cheap demeaning way to try and satisfy one group without doing the work a new character would require, and I really hope they don't do anything like this in the final game. I'll still buy it, but it will put another stake in my BioWare idealism.

This.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Nyoka wrote...

People were defending "completely absent" and I argued against it. Then people offered me "well okay, present but segregated". Am I supposed to thank you for making that offer?

"Will not happen in this lifetime"? Then why did it happen in Jade Empire and DA?

"using segregation is insulting" The circumstances are different, the consequences are different, but the reasoning is the same. Sorry, you are using segregationist reasoning. I know it's insulting. I'm being insulted right now by being offered a segregationist "middle ground".

What?

[Naltair]

Using the term segregation for optional love interests is the stupidest argument/statement I have seen in this thread, and that includes Mister Shepard is straight because he is straight guy.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

People were defending "completely absent" and I argued against it. Then people offered me "well okay, present but segregated". Am I supposed to thank you for making that offer?

"Will not happen in this lifetime"? Then why did it happen in Jade Empire and DA?

"using segregation is insulting" The circumstances are different, the consequences are different, but the reasoning is the same. Sorry, you are using segregationist reasoning. I know it's insulting. I'm being insulted right now by being offered a segregationist "middle ground".

What?

The problem is that the whole "here, have some new gay LIs as DLC/new characters in ME3" is coming over a little condescendingly and trite. Not that new gay characters are a bad idea, but there's a difference between, "we need more diverse LIs" and "here, all you gay people can go have this ONE new LI over in the corner while the straight people have almost the entire cast to pick from." Think we should seek a good balance between the two... some bisexual/gay squaddies in ME2, maybe two or three existing squadmates with a good setup (e.g. Garrus or Tali), and the rest can keep doing the whole straight thing as much as they like.


EDIT: Another possible way to at least somewhat address the issue is that Shepard could be able to make advances to same-sex squadmates but they actually turn him down and admit that they're straight. That would still suck for gay players, but at least there would be a way to play a gay Shepard and have those experiences recognized. Plus straight players wouldn't have to do it if they didn't want to.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 22 mars 2011 - 08:37 .

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I am curious how this is segregation?

Because your experience is different deending on your sexual orientation.

Imagine that if you had a black Shepard, then you couldn't romance Miranda. Sorry, Miranda romance is only for white guys. But don't worry, you still have Jack! If you will, we will even introduce a black woman just for you in ME3!

Would you have a problem with that?

My Shepard is black actually, like me.

Also that isn't the case don't try to equate the two and muddy the waters with mixed arguments stay on topic.  It is obvious that race is a no go, sexuality though is still a sensitive subject for many cultures.  For BioWare to even tackle this subject is incredibly forward thinking on htier behalf.  I think for the most part it has not been overly mature but it is a start.

Again I am all for options but I do not agree that romances which are optional, should be open to every gender for every gender.  It should vary as long as there are equatable options for which at the moment male Shepard has none compared to female Shepard.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

What you may not get is that you are playing a part, not creating a toon like in DA. Male Shep is strait and Devs had stated that more than once. So I dont think youll be seeing any M/M LI's pop up in ME3, but they might give in who knows. I wish I could site the source but I read that a year ago and cant find it now

As with any part you are given parameters to work with, one of which was strait LI's.  They did bend that abit with Dumb Kelly, poor dumb Kelly, if it wernt for the rest of the crew id let the collecters turn her to goo.

I guess what I'm wondering is, if what you're saying is true and we're all just playing a part, then why can we alter so much else about that part? Not the appearance, but the way he behaves, his background, his military exploits... there's a lot about Shepard's personality that we DO have total control over. Why not this part? What, in your honest opinion, makes Shepard's straightness more important and set-in-stone than the fact that, say, he grew up in the slums of Earth or that he survived a Thresher Maw attack?

This isn't me being snarky, I'm genuinely curious. You have taken a strong position that Male Shepard is STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT (btw, it's spelled with "gh"; "strait" is actually a body of water ;-)), and given the weird interview with Bioware, I suppose I can understand why, but I'm genuinely confused as to why THIS was the sticking point vs. all the other alterable aspects to his character.

I suspect the answer is going to be, "Well, this one thing could alienate straight male players." In which case... is that REALLY something we as players want to accept and say, "Yeah, that's fine?" Wouldn't it be better to say, "Yo, Bioware, we're straight male gamers, and we have no problem with being able to choose Shepard's sexuality as long as we can still choose to bone hot alien women" or whatever you straight men like to do?

i know how its spelt , its easier to type my way. Its a stupid GH , why is there a GH?  Remove the damn things.

Anyways, its a hot-button issue, however , they intended Shapard to have a relationship with Liara. To put it bluntly. Bioware always has an agenda, just like you were suppose to take Morrigan in DA:O and Isabela in DA2. Those are the main stream plot lines that lead to the most content.  In ME2 , the choice was Miranda. Just think about ads and game covers, websites, you can see what Im talking about. Bioware had a vision for this franchise and it did not include a gay Shepard. Im not being cold, its just the way I have perceived it.

This is not a RPG, most ppl tend to forget that, its a 3rd person narrative. You are reading a book and watching a movie while playing a role. Yes some thing are customized but some arnt.  Perceptions about Male Shepard would change if there were M/M Li's. Its a sad truth but many would him weaker.

ME2 had a story arc however with the Liara DLC. That DLC was actually part of the full game but was not completed until months after. It really should have been free. It was also intended for Liara to be usable as a shipmate but was changed to take over as the Shadow Broker.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

The problem is that the whole "here, have some new gay LIs as DLC/new characters in ME3" is coming over a little condescendingly and trite. Not that new gay characters are a bad idea, but there's a difference between, "we need more diverse LIs" and "here, all you gay people can go have this ONE new LI over in the corner while the straight people have almost the entire cast to pick from." Think we should seek a good balance between the two... some bisexual/gay squaddies in ME2, maybe two or three existing squadmates with a good setup (e.g. Garrus or Tali), and the rest can keep doing the whole straight thing as much as they like.

It may seem trite but honestly it's the right decision if you go for narrative integrity.  Personally I would provide one bi/both gender choice per Shepard at a minimum consider there are only what 8 choices that would be about 2 to 3... if you are not happy with that then I am not sure what else to do.

I want to romance Chokwas, but can't I better tell Bioware to stop being disrcimantory against people that want to date old cougars.

Obviously BioWare is a hate group.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I am curious how this is segregation?

Because your experience is different deending on your sexual orientation.

Imagine that if you had a black Shepard, then you couldn't romance Miranda. Sorry, Miranda romance is only for white guys. But don't worry, you still have Jack! If you will, we will even introduce a black woman just for you in ME3!

Would you have a problem with that?

My Shepard is black actually, like me.

Also that isn't the case don't try to equate the two and muddy the waters with mixed arguments stay on topic.  It is obvious that race is a no go, sexuality though is still a sensitive subject for many cultures.  For BioWare to even tackle this subject is incredibly forward thinking on htier behalf.  I think for the most part it has not been overly mature but it is a start.

Again I am all for options but I do not agree that romances which are optional, should be open to every gender for every gender.  It should vary as long as there are equatable options for which at the moment male Shepard has none compared to female Shepard.

I get what she (?) means, though it is a bit different I suppose. The basic concept - of being told you can't do something because of who you are - is still a valid point.

Having said that, I'm okay with some of the current LIs identifying as straight. But I am also okay with some of them identifying as bisexual. Keeping options open in ME3 will hurt no one and, if handled deftly, will not change the characters at all.

And agreed that male shepard desperately needs some male LIs, stat.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I get what she (?) means, though it is a bit different I suppose. The basic concept - of being told you can't do something because of who you are - is still a valid point.

Having said that, I'm okay with some of the current LIs identifying as straight. But I am also okay with some of them identifying as bisexual. Keeping options open in ME3 will hurt no one and, if handled deftly, will not change the characters at all.

And agreed that male shepard desperately needs some male LIs, stat.

It's a valid but very extreme point making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Extremism tends to weaken one's argument.

[Naltair]

Nyoka I think we need to agree to disagree, because you are implying things about my character and personality that I find both disingenuous and insulting.

I am on your side but I am not going to go down into extreme land with you. I see your point, but this game is not the forum to air your grievances. There are better avenues to fight for gender/sexual equality then the social forums of BioWare, I suggest becoming actively involved in advocacy groups in your area.

Edit: I am not sure we can come to an understanding as long as you stay so confrontational.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 08:47 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

I don't think the argument has ever been that Bioware is a hate group, exactly. It's more that they're... being a bit insensitive? Close-minded? Closing off potential narrative pathways? I mean, I get what you mean about narrative integrity, but when the narrative integrity is potentially let down to begin with (Why can't ManShep romance Garrus? Why can't Tali's mild crush on FemShep grow into more? These would be great and strong plotlines and would have made total sense for their characters!) the question becomes, do we stick with what is broken and try to build something more stable on top of it, or do we break down what is broken and fix it?

@coolair: I realize that there are lots of "perceptions" about straight men, male/male relationships and what have you. What disappoints me, I suppose, is that we and Bioware are not CHALLENGING those. "You think a gay romance makes him weaker, eh? Well, let's see if you feel that way when Garrus and you can be an item! Still think it's a weakness?" "Bioware thinks that we will freak out of we get a whiff of the gay? Let's prove that we're better than that; give us the option and let us prove we can handle it maturely!" Yes, the world is a crappy place filled with assumptions and prejudices... why do we acknowledge than, then shrug and go back to what we're doing? Shouldn't we be up in arms to break down those assumptions and prejudices once and for all, even if it's just starting with a single game?

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I don't think the argument has ever been that Bioware is a hate group, exactly. It's more that they're... being a bit insensitive? Close-minded? Closing off potential narrative pathways? I mean, I get what you mean about narrative integrity, but when the narrative integrity is potentially let down to begin with (Why can't ManShep romance Garrus? Why can't Tali's mild crush on FemShep grow into more? These would be great and strong plotlines and would have made total sense for their characters!) the question becomes, do we stick with what is broken and try to build something more stable on top of it, or do we break down what is broken and fix it?

Certainly it can be done better, relationships on the whole could be done much better and I have my ideas for that... though I am saving for my own pet projects.  Currently I will say that most relationships in games are too binary and usually only one dimensional.  Meaning that Shepard is usually probing questions and then answered and maybe porvides his/her opinion on the subject.  It tends to be Shepard centric and rarely incorporates other "team" members.

Romance is too much based on sex as the prize/achievement in video games. Just a few of my thoughts.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[coolair74]

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
My Shepard is black actually, like me.

And you wouldn't have a problem with not being able to romance Miranda because your Shepard is black, right?

It is obvious that race is a no go, sexuality though is still a sensitive subject for many cultures.

Right. Racism is not cool, but homophobia is still cool. Therefore games should discriminate against gay people.

For BioWare to even tackle this subject is incredibly forward thinking on htier behalf.

They did it better in Jade Empire. Jade Empire was developed before Mass Effect. So actually it's a step back, not forward.

Again I am all for options

Options like the "whites door" and the "coloreds door", right? Hey, at the end of the day everybody gets to get in the office.

but I do not agree that romances which are optional, should be open to every gender for every gender.

Really. I thought you were all for equality! No, actually, I didn't.

Have you even played Dragon Age, there are plenty of gay LI's in that game, it may be more your flavor as it is a RPG. ME2 , however, is not an RPG.  You take what your given, dont like it?  Dont play it. The world is not going to pander to you and your extremist views.

This game is very equal, a gay man can make the exact same choices as a straight one. EQUAL

What you want is special treatment.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Nyoka wrote...

Naltair wrote...
My Shepard is black actually, like me.

And you wouldn't have a problem with not being able to romance Miranda because your Shepard is black, right?

It is obvious that race is a no go, sexuality though is still a sensitive subject for many cultures.

Right. Racism is not cool, but homophobia is still cool. Therefore games should discriminate against gay people.

For BioWare to even tackle this subject is incredibly forward thinking on htier behalf.

They did it better in Jade Empire. Jade Empire was developed before Mass Effect. So actually it's a step back, not forward.

Again I am all for options

Options like the "whites door" and the "coloreds door", right? Hey, at the end of the day everybody gets to get in the office.

but I do not agree that romances which are optional, should be open to every gender for every gender.

Really. I thought you were all for equality! No, actually, I didn't.

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy.

I suppose what Naltair was trying to get at is that while the average straight white male gamer would say that they're not racist and not have a problem with a black character getting with a white character... let's face it, gamer culture is steeped in homophobia. In making more of a "space marine" game (vs. a more esoteric game like Jade Empire), Bioware may have felt the need to avoid ruffling feathers and just sidestepped the issue.

However, I personally feel this is a copout. I want to see a game that challenges assumptions. Rather than avoiding exposing these gamers to "the icky gay", I want them to be exposed to it and see, "Huh, actually, that's pretty cool. Why was I worried again?" Whenever someone points out that things are this way because people have certain prejudices or won't buy certain things, my reaction is to wonder, why are we not challenging these? Why are we and Bioware saying, "This is not cool, but we will make a game that shows you what IS cool"?

[Naltair]

I do believe Mass Effect is a role playing game.

It is a very narrative focused game but a role playing one. of course there has been much more convergence in modern gaming so the idea has gotten muddled, I believe this is a good thing. Even table top games are going more streamlined with rule sets focused on playability and ease more so then precision and number crunching.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I don't think the argument has ever been that Bioware is a hate group, exactly. It's more that they're... being a bit insensitive? Close-minded? Closing off potential narrative pathways? I mean, I get what you mean about narrative integrity, but when the narrative integrity is potentially let down to begin with (Why can't ManShep romance Garrus? Why can't Tali's mild crush on FemShep grow into more? These would be great and strong plotlines and would have made total sense for their characters!) the question becomes, do we stick with what is broken and try to build something more stable on top of it, or do we break down what is broken and fix it?

Certainly it can be done better, relationships on the whole could be done much better and I have my ideas for that... though I am saving for my own pet projects.  Currently I will say that most relationships in games are too binary and usually only one dimensional.  Meaning that Shepard is usually probing questions and then answered and maybe porvides his/her opinion on the subject.  It tends to be Shepard centric and rarely incorporates other "team" members.

Romance is too much based on sex as the prize/achievement in video games. Just a few of my thoughts.

I'll agree... to a point. Oddly enough, I thought the Kaidan relationship in ME1 actually seemed to come across a bit better than some of the ME2 romances, or even Liara in ME1. I know on a logical level it was just more probing questions, but... it FELT more like a real relationship where there was exploration and curiosity and a bit of minor flirting and then awkward attempts at figuring out, "wait, are we, um, you know?" Yes, there was a "reward", but in a way it felt almost like the actual conversations were part of the reward as opposed to just the sex.  I'd like a bit more like that, actually.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

However, I personally feel this is a copout. I want to see a game that challenges assumptions. Rather than avoiding exposing these gamers to "the icky gay", I want them to be exposed to it and see, "Huh, actually, that's pretty cool. Why was I worried again?" Whenever someone points out that things are this way because people have certain prejudices or won't buy certain things, my reaction is to wonder, why are we not challenging these? Why are we and Bioware saying, "This is not cool, but we will make a game that shows you what IS cool"?

Oh there are many inequities in gaming, they are changing but they are many.  Time will change them, but just being blatant can stand to alienate your audience.  it needs to be done right and really that education needs to start at home, schools, and elsewhere in my opinion.

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I don't think the argument has ever been that Bioware is a hate group, exactly. It's more that they're... being a bit insensitive? Close-minded? Closing off potential narrative pathways? I mean, I get what you mean about narrative integrity, but when the narrative integrity is potentially let down to begin with (Why can't ManShep romance Garrus? Why can't Tali's mild crush on FemShep grow into more? These would be great and strong plotlines and would have made total sense for their characters!) the question becomes, do we stick with what is broken and try to build something more stable on top of it, or do we break down what is broken and fix it?

@coolair: I realize that there are lots of "perceptions" about straight men, male/male relationships and what have you. What disappoints me, I suppose, is that we and Bioware are not CHALLENGING those. "You think a gay romance makes him weaker, eh? Well, let's see if you feel that way when Garrus and you can be an item! Still think it's a weakness?" "Bioware thinks that we will freak out of we get a whiff of the gay? Let's prove that we're better than that; give us the option and let us prove we can handle it maturely!" Yes, the world is a crappy place filled with assumptions and prejudices... why do we acknowledge than, then shrug and go back to what we're doing? Shouldn't we be up in arms to break down those assumptions and prejudices once and for all, even if it's just starting with a single game?

If it were full on RPG I would agree 100% with you. But its not. So we will have to deal with the fact that Bioware has a vision for this game and you may not be able to do everything you want. I wanted to romance Samara, cant. Or maybe Kasumi, cant. Its not in the script. The M/M simply isnt gonna happen as much as it might enrich the game, which I dont agree with. Its not called for and not needed and would feel empty as this point. It little to do with the fact that the reapers are comming and by god, Alex P Keaton Shepard is gonna stop them!

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I'll agree... to a point. Oddly enough, I thought the Kaidan relationship in ME1 actually seemed to come across a bit better than some of the ME2 romances, or even Liara in ME1. I know on a logical level it was just more probing questions, but... it FELT more like a real relationship where there was exploration and curiosity and a bit of minor flirting and then awkward attempts at figuring out, "wait, are we, um, you know?" Yes, there was a "reward", but in a way it felt almost like the actual conversations were part of the reward as opposed to just the sex.  I'd like a bit more like that, actually.

I am not discounting the questioning I just think it can be more then that, maybe talk about the mission, your decisions, and the decisions of others.  Who has the best ass on the ship... what did Joker do this time?  Things normal people talk about, life, each other... maybe even give them more chances to flesh out your Shepard by asking the player questions.  I always love doing that.

Don't over do it, but hit the right balance.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

I do believe Mass Effect is a role playing game.

It is a very narrative focused game but a role playing one. of course there has been much more convergence in modern gaming so the idea has gotten muddled, I believe this is a good thing. Even table top games are going more streamlined with rule sets focused on playability and ease more so then precision and number crunching.

Bioware has stated its not an RPG and its a 3rd person narrative and should be treated as such.

[Naltair]

I always saw Action or Shooter RPG as what they consider it. Even from the Doctors in charge from interviews for ME2.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

*watching thread for the moment until he can think of something to say*