1677 réponses à ce sujet

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

However, I personally feel this is a copout. I want to see a game that challenges assumptions. Rather than avoiding exposing these gamers to "the icky gay", I want them to be exposed to it and see, "Huh, actually, that's pretty cool. Why was I worried again?" Whenever someone points out that things are this way because people have certain prejudices or won't buy certain things, my reaction is to wonder, why are we not challenging these? Why are we and Bioware saying, "This is not cool, but we will make a game that shows you what IS cool"?

Oh there are many inequities in gaming, they are changing but they are many.  Time will change them, but just being blatant can stand to alienate your audience.  it needs to be done right and really that education needs to start at home, schools, and elsewhere in my opinion.

I agree and disagree. I see your point that blatant BOOYAH can be somewhat alienating. On the other hand, it can also stand to jolt people out of their thought processes.

Say, for example, we had a game (maybe ME, maybe another game) with a Manly Space Marine that is Butch and Tough and Strong. He shoots aliens. He smokes cigars. He quips oneliners. And he occasionally refers to a sweetheart he has back home that he's going to radio on his next leave.

After lots of sweating and grunting and manly things, he finally gets enough free time to radio home. "Hey baby," he says, smiling as he puts on the headset. "Miss you."

"Miss you too," a male voice answers.

Now, in a perfect world, there should be no "record scratch" noise in our heads; it should be as normal and natural as if it were a girl answering the radio. However, as the world is now, there WOULD be a lot of WTF and record-scratching noises and what have you. But what I want is for people to have that moment, then question it. "Wait, why did my brain suddenly screech to a halt over that? What does it matter? Why does it make his jokes any less funny or his machoness any less manly and sweaty? Who cares if he has a boy back home or a girl?" Those are the sorts of challenges I want more games to make.

[Naltair]

Nyoka wrote...

Wow man. This is appalling. When did the thought that people should be treated equally become extremism?

Let's not talk about me. I am blunt, I am this or I am that. Let's talk about Mass Effect.

Because the player is treated equally, BioWare has no control over your sexual orientation and they make race not a factor in game.  The one thing they have not done is provide a same sex male romance but they have done so for female Shepard, two in fact.  Hell three or four if you include some of the other Asari.

I am not against your equality I just don't think the term as you are using it, applies in this happenstance.  It is a  design decision not an equality decision.  maybe that is too fine a point but I am not sure why you keep pushing this equality issue and acting like we are just being crass in providing solutions that preserve narrative integrity and give more options without so many options that Shepard might as well be some androgynous sexual god.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 09:06 .

[Whatever42]

Nothing screws people up as much as sex.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Now, in a perfect world, there should be no "record scratch" noise in our heads; it should be as normal and natural as if it were a girl answering the radio. However, as the world is now, there WOULD be a lot of WTF and record-scratching noises and what have you. But what I want is for people to have that moment, then question it. "Wait, why did my brain suddenly screech to a halt over that? What does it matter? Why does it make his jokes any less funny or his machoness any less manly and sweaty? Who cares if he has a boy back home or a girl?" Those are the sorts of challenges I want more games to make.

The problem is most won't.  Most people don't like their world views being challenged.

Edit: Just because they ended segregation in the 60's does not mean that racism magically ended either.  Humanity is complusively divisive.  

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 09:07 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Wow man. This is appalling. When did the thought that people should be treated equally become extremism?

Let's not talk about me. I am blunt, I am this or I am that. Let's talk about Mass Effect.

Because the player is treated equally, BioWare has no control over your sexual orientation and they make race not a factor in game.  The one thing they have not done is provide a same sex male romance but they have done so for female Shepard, two in fact.  Hell three or four if you include some of the other Asari.

I am not against your equality I just don't think the term as you are using it, applies in this happenstance.  It is a  design decision not an equality decision.  maybe that is too fine a point but I am not sure why you keep pushing this equality issue and actig like we are just being crass in providing solutions that preserve narrative integrity and give more options without so many options that Shepard might as well be some androgynous sexual god.

I would love ME even more if this were true. Androgynous sex gods are totally up my alley. It's why I love Final Fantasy VII, after all.

Sorry, just trying to lighten the moment.

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Wow man. This is appalling. When did the thought that people should be treated equally become extremism?

Let's not talk about me. I am blunt, I am this or I am that. Let's talk about Mass Effect.

Because the player is treated equally, BioWare has no control over your sexual orientation and they make race not a factor in game.  The one thing they have not done is provide a same sex male romance but they have done so for female Shepard, two in fact.  Hell three or four if you include some of the other Asari.

I am not against your equality I just don't think the term as you are using it, applies in this happenstance.  It is a  design decision not an equality decision.  maybe that is too fine a point but I am not sure why you keep pushing this equality issue and actig like we are just being crass in providing solutions that preserve narrative integrity and give more options without so many options that Shepard might as well be some androgynous sexual god.

Actually there is only one F/F thingy, with dumb dumb Kelly.  Asari dont count has they are not female.

[Almostfaceman]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy.

I suppose what Naltair was trying to get at is that while the average straight white male gamer would say that they're not racist and not have a problem with a black character getting with a white character... let's face it, gamer culture is steeped in homophobia. In making more of a "space marine" game (vs. a more esoteric game like Jade Empire), Bioware may have felt the need to avoid ruffling feathers and just sidestepped the issue.

However, I personally feel this is a copout. I want to see a game that challenges assumptions. Rather than avoiding exposing these gamers to "the icky gay", I want them to be exposed to it and see, "Huh, actually, that's pretty cool. Why was I worried again?" Whenever someone points out that things are this way because people have certain prejudices or won't buy certain things, my reaction is to wonder, why are we not challenging these? Why are we and Bioware saying, "This is not cool, but we will make a game that shows you what IS cool"?

Uh, it's a little ironic you just asked someone to be more sensitive then you proceeded to throw down stereotypes about this theoretical "gamer culture".  Paint with a wide brush much?

[Naltair]

Asari count, don't kid yourself there body was modeled the way it was on purpose.

[Manic Sheep]

Not everyone is bi and not every character should be bi.
Characters should not realign their sexuality to match the player. I wouldn’t expect a homosexual character to be hetrosexual in a different playthrough. Characters should be defined and consistent. Not every character should even be a romance option or like you no matter what you say or do and not every alien should go for humans for the same reason.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 22 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Now, in a perfect world, there should be no "record scratch" noise in our heads; it should be as normal and natural as if it were a girl answering the radio. However, as the world is now, there WOULD be a lot of WTF and record-scratching noises and what have you. But what I want is for people to have that moment, then question it. "Wait, why did my brain suddenly screech to a halt over that? What does it matter? Why does it make his jokes any less funny or his machoness any less manly and sweaty? Who cares if he has a boy back home or a girl?" Those are the sorts of challenges I want more games to make.

The problem is most won't.  Most people don't like their world views being challenged.

I like to give people more credit than that. If an idiotic and worthless waste of space like me can find it in myself to say, "Huh, I need to rethink my views," surely the average person can do it too.

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

Asari count, don't kid yourself there body was modeled the way it was on purpose.

Dont give me crap symantics.

Devs said thier not female, i win.

Modifié par coolair74, 22 mars 2011 - 09:11 .

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I like to give people more credit than that. If an idiotic and worthless waste of space like me can find it in myself to say, "Huh, I need to rethink my views," surely the average person can do it too.

I give high credit to humanity but we have thousands of years of history to show that chaning people's minds is never easy.  Also people will fight over the dumbest **** possible.

Often because they are different from us.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Almostfaceman wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy.

I suppose what Naltair was trying to get at is that while the average straight white male gamer would say that they're not racist and not have a problem with a black character getting with a white character... let's face it, gamer culture is steeped in homophobia. In making more of a "space marine" game (vs. a more esoteric game like Jade Empire), Bioware may have felt the need to avoid ruffling feathers and just sidestepped the issue.

However, I personally feel this is a copout. I want to see a game that challenges assumptions. Rather than avoiding exposing these gamers to "the icky gay", I want them to be exposed to it and see, "Huh, actually, that's pretty cool. Why was I worried again?" Whenever someone points out that things are this way because people have certain prejudices or won't buy certain things, my reaction is to wonder, why are we not challenging these? Why are we and Bioware saying, "This is not cool, but we will make a game that shows you what IS cool"?

Uh, it's a little ironic you just asked someone to be more sensitive then you proceeded to throw down stereotypes about this theoretical "gamer culture".  Paint with a wide brush much?

Fair enough, I apologize. I was considering the prevalent use of terms like "f*ggot" and "gay" and "****r*e" and other terms as negative perjoratives; it is widespread enough (e.g. WoW, XBox Live, MW2) to assume that it is the majority of gaming culture. You are right in that it is more likely to be a vocal minority that speaks like that, and I am sorry that I painted all gaming culture with the same brush.

At the same time, if Bioware is under the same misapprehension, the main issue still arises.

[Naltair]

coolair74 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Asari count, don't kid yourself there body was modeled the way it was on purpose.

Dont give me crap simantics.

Devs said thier not female, i win.

It's not semantics, the devs can say whatever they want, they were modeled on the female anatomy for a reason.  If you want to deny it and put your head in the sand be my guest.  But don't think for a minute they just happened to choose that model shape just cause...

It was intentional because sex sells.

Modifié par Naltair, 22 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
I like to give people more credit than that. If an idiotic and worthless waste of space like me can find it in myself to say, "Huh, I need to rethink my views," surely the average person can do it too.

I give high credit to humanity but we have thousands of years of history to show that chaning people's minds is never easy.  Also people will fight over the dumbest **** possible.

Often because they are different from us.

This I will grant you. On the other hand, the internet has introduced a new element to the discussion, because whereas different people used to be the Other (i.e. that guy in the village over there, let's kill him!), they're now the people we are posting on forums with, sharing info with, and learning more about. Your point is very valid, but I do think that the net may speed up the evolution of understanding different perspectives, if only because we are exposed to them.

[Naltair]

Sexuality is a complex and hot button issue so of course it will be contentious. It may not matter to you in the specific but it matters to people in general.

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Asari count, don't kid yourself there body was modeled the way it was on purpose.

Dont give me crap simantics.

Devs said thier not female, i win.

It's not semantics, the devs can say whatever they want, they were modeled on the female anatomy for a reason.  If you want to deny it and put your head in the sand be my guest.  But don't think for a minute they just happened to choose that model shape just cause...

It was intentional because sex sells.

Nope nope your wrong wrong. They look female cuz they have the babies.

Devs said so , I win

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

This I will grant you. On the other hand, the internet has introduced a new element to the discussion, because whereas different people used to be the Other (i.e. that guy in the village over there, let's kill him!), they're now the people we are posting on forums with, sharing info with, and learning more about. Your point is very valid, but I do think that the net may speed up the evolution of understanding different perspectives, if only because we are exposed to them.

I think it will help and hinder, the ebst thing about the internet is you can find a source that caters to your world view.  You only expose yourself to what you want to be exposed to, usually.

[Bourne Endeavor]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy. "

Friends, really? I have you seen any thread pertaining to ME2's plotholes? This forum is more akin to the merc bands lobbied into a battle royale; alliances will be made, enemies established, carnage and mayhem ensuing with only the last one standing having the correct opinion!

At this point, no one has been left standing. Just a whole lot of carnage and mayhem. So we're friends... with shotguns and assault rifles.

And before anyone says anything! Click this

This thread felt the need to dial down the serious.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 22 mars 2011 - 09:16 .

[Naltair]

coolair74 wrote...

Nope nope your wrong wrong. They look female cuz they have the babies.

Devs said so , I win

They don't need to look like earth women to have babies, they could have been gigantic slug people and still be mono-gendered.

[coolair74]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy. "

Friends, really? I have you seen any thread pertaining to ME2's plotholes? This forum is more akin to the merc bands lobbied into a battle royale; alliances will be made, enemies established, carnage and mayhem ensuing with only the victor's opinion being right!

At this point, no victor. Just a whole lot of carnage and mayhem. So we're friends... with shotguns and assault rifles.

And before anyone says anything! Click this

This thread felt the need to dial down the serious.

Best scene in the game, the look on Jokers face is priceless.

[Almostfaceman]

Naltair wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Asari count, don't kid yourself there body was modeled the way it was on purpose.

Dont give me crap simantics.

Devs said thier not female, i win.

It's not semantics, the devs can say whatever they want, they were modeled on the female anatomy for a reason.  If you want to deny it and put your head in the sand be my guest.  But don't think for a minute they just happened to choose that model shape just cause...

It was intentional because sex sells.

Yeah I think there's a comment in the "Art of Mass Effect" book or something where they admit that the Asari are their version of the "green alien hot chick" from Star Trek.

[coolair74]

Naltair wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

Nope nope your wrong wrong. They look female cuz they have the babies.

Devs said so , I win

They don't need to look like earth women to have babies, they could have been gigantic slug people and still be mono-gendered.

Actually it was hinted on in the game that they may not look like what we think they look like.

IF you ever noticed the conversation on Illium , that little bacholor ( cant spell) party and one of was turian and a salarian and a human all thought she look like their respective species.

But nope nope , somehow , I win.

Modifié par coolair74, 22 mars 2011 - 09:25 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy. "

Friends, really? I have you seen any thread pertaining to ME2's plotholes? This forum is more akin to the merc bands lobbied into a battle royale; alliances will be made, enemies established, carnage and mayhem ensuing with only the last one standing having the correct opinion!

At this point, no one has been left standing. Just a whole lot of carnage and mayhem. So we're friends... with shotguns and assault rifles.

And before anyone says anything! Click this

This thread felt the need to dial down the serious.

What's a little shotgun blast between friends?

(actually, seriously, I wish I'd had the option to punch Wrex during Virmire without killing him and basically smacked him into submission. Not because I don't love Wrex - I do! - but because it seems a particularly krogan sort of friendship. )

[coolair74]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I get what you're saying, though I understand why Naltair is getting hurt by this. We can certainly argue without insulting each other as people. We're all people, we're all friends brought together by this awesome game, so let's work together to find a solution that makes everyone equally happy. "

Friends, really? I have you seen any thread pertaining to ME2's plotholes? This forum is more akin to the merc bands lobbied into a battle royale; alliances will be made, enemies established, carnage and mayhem ensuing with only the last one standing having the correct opinion!

At this point, no one has been left standing. Just a whole lot of carnage and mayhem. So we're friends... with shotguns and assault rifles.

And before anyone says anything! Click this

This thread felt the need to dial down the serious.

What's a little shotgun blast between friends?

(actually, seriously, I wish I'd had the option to punch Wrex during Virmire without killing him and basically smacked him into submission. Not because I don't love Wrex - I do! - but because it seems a particularly krogan sort of friendship. )

I punched him and he lived?  eh?