1677 réponses à ce sujet

[Centauri2002]

coolair74 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Uh, I think you missed the 'game' part of role playing game. Twilight is a book, not a game. o_0

And Mass Effect is still an RPG, albeit an action-RPG. You take on the role of Commander Shepard, you make decisions for him/her, you act for him/her, you choose what he/she says. That seems to sum up role playing pretty well.

Exactly, Commander Shepard is straight though. You didnt create him, see my point now? Some things you can change , some you cant.

I see where you're coming from, yes. And I don't see the necessity of making him gay or bisexual, either, but I also don't see the harm in giving the option for it if you're allowing the player so much control over him/her anyway. 

Personally, I reckon my FemShep is gay. She's not interested in any of the males and only chases feminine-looking tail. She's my character so I get to decide.

[coolair74]

centauri2002 wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

coolair74 wrote...
femshep...was thrown in to give the girls a heroin.

Right, and the possibility to be black was thrown to give the blacks a hero.

Do you realize that your post is disgusting? I suppose you don't.

You strike me as a person who takes offense way too easily.

To be fair (and sorry about this, coolair), the original post was pretty offensive. Even I got pissed at it. For one, it's totally wrong, and secondly, it really makes the whole thing sound cruel and dismissive ("Awww, there you go, you silly little WIMMINZ, have another silly little wimminz who you can play with!") Of course that wasn't the intent, but that was how it sounded. Rather than writing off not only half the game (the FemShep half) but the needs/experiences/thoughts of all the female gamers (i.e. we got thrown a tiny bone, LOL), why not give FemShep the same respect and thought as a MaleShep playthrough? Win win scenario.

The lead Developer for Mass Effect stated that originally there was no scripting for a female shepard.  They had 1 month to write her in, which wasnt hard she had the same script the male one had with a few changes when it came to her LI's.

It was added due to specualtion that females were expecting a female shepard even though Bioware stated they werent including one. But they relented and it was a win for them as it turned out to win them an award for best V/o work.

So they indeed threw you a bone. Now its common to have a female heroin. I just dont like pandering. You write a game, stick to your guns and dont give in to pressure and change what it took you years to write.
 

To be honest, if there were no FemShep in Mass Effect, it's likely I'd never have bought the second game. The game didn't lose anything from adding a female Shepard, it's the same character and you don't have to play as her. So I don't see it as pandering. If they'd diminished the integrity of the game to add FemShep, then that's another matter. 

Ack i totally used the wrong word there. Pandering no, but as an artist, if I had done a painting and a group of folks were pissed or offended cus it had nudity or something then go spit, its my art you dont have to buy or like it.

Just the way I look at it.  I can see it from all points, and its prolly better it was done. Perhaps it should have been done in the first place?

[LyletheBloody]

I think the sexuality of every LI from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 should remain the same in ME3 unless there is an EXPLICIT story related/driven reason for them to change. I don't know what that would be, but unless there is an in game explanation for it, then I don't see why any of them would change.

[Gavinthelocust]

Actually I'm gonna pull an Ishmael and say they're all bi.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I am glad that this thread has taken a friendlier turn than earlier. I guess SOME people can't handle viewpoints being different than others.

I agree that friendly is better, but I hope that you see that the earlier "angry" people still had good points, even if they themselves were angry. It's easy to just dismiss things if they're said in an angry or aggressive way. Me, I try to avoid anger and aggression wherever possible, but I don't look down on those who are angry for good reason (or heck, even those who are angry for BAD reason!)

And to be fair, you and coolair have had your moments of... if not anger, then certainly total blocks to conversation. I'm sorry, but repeating over and over that SHEPARD IS STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT DID WE MENTION HE'S STRAIGHT (not you, coolair) does not make anyone feel like this is an intelligent conversation between equals where we can both understand and recognize each other's points while disagreeing. It's not that difficult to say, "Hmm, I can see what you mean about how you may feel that bisexuality is still a viable option for existing LIs, but I still don't think I quite buy it, for X and Y reasons." Saying that stuff is stupid or pandering or what have you just shuts down further conversation. Can't we say, "I personally don't think this would work, but I understand why it's important to you?" Gets the same message across, and probably diffuses a lot of anger.

[Coach]

Personally, I don't see a problem with Garrus, Tali, or whoever wanting to "come out" as bisexual to your Shepard in the third game. And no, I don't see anything contradictory in terms of the prior games "establishing" their sexuality to your Shepard. As a bisexual person myself, I guess I find the idea of "no evidence of bisexuality" rather humorous a thing to argue... since you could make that argument about a lot of bisexuals if you didn't know everything about them. Does that make them any less bisexual during the time you knew them (but did not know that)?

So maybe I just don't understand the point of that particular argument... or maybe I just have no idea why this is such a big deal. Either course, I still see where you're coming from, and I am by no means trying to advocate "let's make everyone bi for sake of nothing." I get that that's what you're really attacking, but it just seems kinda strange to speak so strongly against the idea, is all, so I figured I'd throw in a few cents and offer another perspective on the equation.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Coach Jon wrote...

Personally, I don't see a problem with Garrus, Tali, or whoever wanting to "come out" as bisexual to your Shepard in the third game. And no, I don't see anything contradictory in terms of the prior games "establishing" their sexuality to your Shepard. As a bisexual person myself, I guess I find the idea of "no evidence of bisexuality" rather humorous a thing to argue... since you could make that argument about a lot of bisexuals if you didn't know everything about them. Does that make them any less bisexual during the time you knew them (but did not know that)?

So maybe I just don't understand the point of that particular argument... or maybe I just have no idea why this is such a big deal. Either course, I still see where you're coming from, and I am by no means trying to advocate "let's make everyone bi for sake of nothing." I get that that's what you're really attacking, but it just seems kinda strange to speak so strongly against the idea, is all, so I figured I'd throw in a few cents and offer another perspective on the equation.

I want to hold this comment up on a billboard and proclaim my undying love for it.

[Centauri2002]

Coach Jon wrote...

Personally, I don't see a problem with Garrus, Tali, or whoever wanting to "come out" as bisexual to your Shepard in the third game. And no, I don't see anything contradictory in terms of the prior games "establishing" their sexuality to your Shepard. As a bisexual person myself, I guess I find the idea of "no evidence of bisexuality" rather humorous a thing to argue... since you could make that argument about a lot of bisexuals if you didn't know everything about them. Does that make them any less bisexual during the time you knew them (but did not know that)?

So maybe I just don't understand the point of that particular argument... or maybe I just have no idea why this is such a big deal. Either course, I still see where you're coming from, and I am by no means trying to advocate "let's make everyone bi for sake of nothing." I get that that's what you're really attacking, but it just seems kinda strange to speak so strongly against the idea, is all, so I figured I'd throw in a few cents and offer another perspective on the equation.

Heck, it's set in the future and in space. One would hope we'd gotten a little beyond the sexuality hang ups we have now. >.>

[coolair74]

LyletheBloody wrote...

I think the sexuality of every LI from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 should remain the same in ME3 unless there is an EXPLICIT story related/driven reason for them to change. I don't know what that would be, but unless there is an in game explanation for it, then I don't see why any of them would change.

Garrus cracks his head on an intake manifold and now he wants you in the worst way........

Thane is cured from his illness but a side effect is that he is now gay........damn salarian.

Joker professes his undying love for you, and when you reciprecate, he kicks you in the nuts and calls you a ****.... (Jokes folks)

Jacob finds a plank of wood and starts knawing on it....no one cares.

Grunt is shot in the head and they transplant a female brain into him.........shepard is sore

Zaeed is blinded in his good eye...mistakes you for Jack, and LIKES it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I am glad that this thread has taken a friendlier turn than earlier. I guess SOME people can't handle viewpoints being different than others.

I agree that friendly is better, but I hope that you see that the earlier "angry" people still had good points, even if they themselves were angry. It's easy to just dismiss things if they're said in an angry or aggressive way. Me, I try to avoid anger and aggression wherever possible, but I don't look down on those who are angry for good reason (or heck, even those who are angry for BAD reason!)

And to be fair, you and coolair have had your moments of... if not anger, then certainly total blocks to conversation. I'm sorry, but repeating over and over that SHEPARD IS STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT DID WE MENTION HE'S STRAIGHT (not you, coolair) does not make anyone feel like this is an intelligent conversation between equals where we can both understand and recognize each other's points while disagreeing. It's not that difficult to say, "Hmm, I can see what you mean about how you may feel that bisexuality is still a viable option for existing LIs, but I still don't think I quite buy it, for X and Y reasons." Saying that stuff is stupid or pandering or what have you just shuts down further conversation. Can't we say, "I personally don't think this would work, but I understand why it's important to you?" Gets the same message across, and probably diffuses a lot of anger.

If you're talking about my responses to the person who I told to gtfo (who removed me from their friend list lol), that person was insulting me and, well, kind of deserved it. I tried (I think) , but it seems that some wouldn't hear it.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 22 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Gavinthelocust]

coolair74 wrote...

LyletheBloody wrote...

I think the sexuality of every LI from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 should remain the same in ME3 unless there is an EXPLICIT story related/driven reason for them to change. I don't know what that would be, but unless there is an in game explanation for it, then I don't see why any of them would change.

Garrus cracks his head on an intake manifold and now he wants you in the worst way........

Thane is cured from his illness but a side effect is that he is now gay........damn salarian.

Joker professes his undying love for you, and when you reciprecate, he kicks you in the nuts and calls you a ****.... (Jokes folks)

Jacob finds a plank of wood and starts knawing on it....no one cares.

Grunt is shot in the head and they transplant a female brain into him.........shepard is sore

Zaeed is blinded in his good eye...mistakes you for Jack, and LIKES it.

Oh come now that was low.

[coolair74]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

LyletheBloody wrote...

I think the sexuality of every LI from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 should remain the same in ME3 unless there is an EXPLICIT story related/driven reason for them to change. I don't know what that would be, but unless there is an in game explanation for it, then I don't see why any of them would change.

Garrus cracks his head on an intake manifold and now he wants you in the worst way........

Thane is cured from his illness but a side effect is that he is now gay........damn salarian.

Joker professes his undying love for you, and when you reciprecate, he kicks you in the nuts and calls you a ****.... (Jokes folks)

Jacob finds a plank of wood and starts knawing on it....no one cares.

Grunt is shot in the head and they transplant a female brain into him.........shepard is sore

Zaeed is blinded in his good eye...mistakes you for Jack, and LIKES it.

Oh come now that was low.

 No one gets me

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I am glad that this thread has taken a friendlier turn than earlier. I guess SOME people can't handle viewpoints being different than others.

I agree that friendly is better, but I hope that you see that the earlier "angry" people still had good points, even if they themselves were angry. It's easy to just dismiss things if they're said in an angry or aggressive way. Me, I try to avoid anger and aggression wherever possible, but I don't look down on those who are angry for good reason (or heck, even those who are angry for BAD reason!)

And to be fair, you and coolair have had your moments of... if not anger, then certainly total blocks to conversation. I'm sorry, but repeating over and over that SHEPARD IS STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT DID WE MENTION HE'S STRAIGHT (not you, coolair) does not make anyone feel like this is an intelligent conversation between equals where we can both understand and recognize each other's points while disagreeing. It's not that difficult to say, "Hmm, I can see what you mean about how you may feel that bisexuality is still a viable option for existing LIs, but I still don't think I quite buy it, for X and Y reasons." Saying that stuff is stupid or pandering or what have you just shuts down further conversation. Can't we say, "I personally don't think this would work, but I understand why it's important to you?" Gets the same message across, and probably diffuses a lot of anger.

If you're talking my responses to the person who I told to gtfo (who removed me from their friend list lol), that person was insulting me and, well, kind of deserved it. I tried (I think) , but it seems that some wouldn't hear it.

Partly, though part of it was the tone of the original post... it came across a lot more like "HOW DARE YOU WANT BISEXUAL EXISTING LIs, THIS  WOULD RUIN THE GAME FOREVER, CHANGE CHARACTERS, ETC" as opposed to, "Hey, I know a lot of people feel like this would be a good change and think it's in character for them, but for some of us it makes no sense given what we know of the characters. It would have been nice to make a few of them bi before now, but unfortunately that ship has sailed and I think it would be a retcon to go back on it now." I would still disagree with you, as would many others, but it's at least more respectful and acknowledging that yes, the other side has plenty of good evidence and valid feeling behind it. At least we could have figured out where the prime spots of conflict are (different interpretations of characters e.g. is Tali crushing on Shepard or not?, plus the question of whether a bisexual character would be open about it up until now). As it was, the gauntlet got thrown down early and we all ended up ripping into each other. Which sucks, because I think we should all be friends and get alo-

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

ALL SHALL LOVE EACH OTHER AND DESPAIR.

[Bourne Endeavor]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Yes, this. I would hope that everyone agrees that the presence of a FemShepard does not weaken the game and, in fact, makes it better, opens up new narrative pathways, romances, etc. Sometimes "pandering" is not a bad thing if what the fans want is a *better game*.

While I would not have tossed the game aside myself. I agree wholeheartedly the inclusion of a female Shepard was definitely the way to go. Personally, I have no preference of gender. If the characters are intriguing and developed than the game has reached my quota. I suppose this derives from the fact I do not project myself into the main character.

I have a fair amount of both Shepard and in actuality have tendency to play female characters more often, be it in video games or writing. It partially stems from the wider range of emotions to explore and the challenge to create as realistic a character as possible that is not my own gender. Primarily, I like giving women a role where they are the heroine and not blatant fanservice. There needs to be more.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I disagree. I think that every single damn LI should be bisexual, with a few exclusively homosexual LIs included too.



The Vad0rz agrees with me.

If they were new characters, that would be fine with me. But I'm against changing pre-existing ones.

[Gavinthelocust]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

ALL SHALL LOVE EACH OTHER AND DESPAIR.

Oh the burden of people loving each other, we need to **** this up and put restrictions on it IN THE NAME OF JESUS!
Also, sarcasm for the glory of the all knowing snark knight..

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I am glad that this thread has taken a friendlier turn than earlier. I guess SOME people can't handle viewpoints being different than others.

I agree that friendly is better, but I hope that you see that the earlier "angry" people still had good points, even if they themselves were angry. It's easy to just dismiss things if they're said in an angry or aggressive way. Me, I try to avoid anger and aggression wherever possible, but I don't look down on those who are angry for good reason (or heck, even those who are angry for BAD reason!)

And to be fair, you and coolair have had your moments of... if not anger, then certainly total blocks to conversation. I'm sorry, but repeating over and over that SHEPARD IS STRAIGHT STRAIGHT STRAIGHT DID WE MENTION HE'S STRAIGHT (not you, coolair) does not make anyone feel like this is an intelligent conversation between equals where we can both understand and recognize each other's points while disagreeing. It's not that difficult to say, "Hmm, I can see what you mean about how you may feel that bisexuality is still a viable option for existing LIs, but I still don't think I quite buy it, for X and Y reasons." Saying that stuff is stupid or pandering or what have you just shuts down further conversation. Can't we say, "I personally don't think this would work, but I understand why it's important to you?" Gets the same message across, and probably diffuses a lot of anger.

If you're talking my responses to the person who I told to gtfo (who removed me from their friend list lol), that person was insulting me and, well, kind of deserved it. I tried (I think) , but it seems that some wouldn't hear it.

Partly, though part of it was the tone of the original post... it came across a lot more like "HOW DARE YOU WANT BISEXUAL EXISTING LIs, THIS  WOULD RUIN THE GAME FOREVER, CHANGE CHARACTERS, ETC" as opposed to, "Hey, I know a lot of people feel like this would be a good change and think it's in character for them, but for some of us it makes no sense given what we know of the characters. It would have been nice to make a few of them bi before now, but unfortunately that ship has sailed and I think it would be a retcon to go back on it now." I would still disagree with you, as would many others, but it's at least more respectful and acknowledging that yes, the other side has plenty of good evidence and valid feeling behind it. At least we could have figured out where the prime spots of conflict are (different interpretations of characters e.g. is Tali crushing on Shepard or not?, plus the question of whether a bisexual character would be open about it up until now). As it was, the gauntlet got thrown down early and we all ended up ripping into each other. Which sucks, because I think we should all be friends and get alo-

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

ALL SHALL LOVE EACH OTHER AND DESPAIR.

LOL

[Centauri2002]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Yes, this. I would hope that everyone agrees that the presence of a FemShepard does not weaken the game and, in fact, makes it better, opens up new narrative pathways, romances, etc. Sometimes "pandering" is not a bad thing if what the fans want is a *better game*.

While I would not have tossed the game aside myself. I agree wholeheartedly the inclusion of a female Shepard was definitely the way to go. Personally, I have no preference of gender. If the characters are intriguing and developed than the game has reached my quota. I suppose this derives from the fact I do not project myself into the main character.

I have a fair amount of both Shepard and in actuality have tendency to play female characters more often, be it in video games or writing. It partially stems from the wider range of emotions to explore and the challenge to create as realistic a character as possible that is not my own gender. Primarily, I like giving women a role where they are the heroine and not blatant fanservice. There needs to be more.

Absolutely.

I've played games with only male characters before and I've thoroughly enjoyed them. But, having played through ME1 with FemShep, and then trying to do so again with MaleShep but only reaching about the third way point, I doubt I would have bought the second game if FemShep wasn't there. I can't say why I don't get on with MaleShep but it's possibly the voice. I know some people like it but it just does nothing for me. Perhaps my second playthrough was coloured by my first as well. FemShep is my favourite player character out of any game, so it's probably a healthy dose of the latter. 

We most certainly need more female leads who aren't merely there purely for titillation.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If they were new characters, that would be fine with me. But I'm against changing pre-existing ones.

I think you might have had better luck with this thread if you'd titled it/made the main question, "Does making pre-existing LIs bisexual change them?" because in the end THAT is the main question and the topic that can be debated. I know you are against changing pre-existing characters, but the problem is that argument so far doesn't hold weight with those of us on the other side, because our response is, "But we're not changing anything, just learning more about them!" If we all took a step back and debated THAT issue - does a revelation about sexuality (or just attraction to Shepard and being otherwise straight) change a character - that is a much meatier and more valid argument, whereas now we're all arguing at cross purposes with entirely different assumptions and perspectives. We're not even arguing the same thing, really.

[Lee337]

coolair74 wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

LyletheBloody wrote...

I think the sexuality of every LI from Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 should remain the same in ME3 unless there is an EXPLICIT story related/driven reason for them to change. I don't know what that would be, but unless there is an in game explanation for it, then I don't see why any of them would change.

Garrus cracks his head on an intake manifold and now he wants you in the worst way........

Thane is cured from his illness but a side effect is that he is now gay........damn salarian.

Joker professes his undying love for you, and when you reciprecate, he kicks you in the nuts and calls you a ****.... (Jokes folks)

Jacob finds a plank of wood and starts knawing on it....no one cares.

Grunt is shot in the head and they transplant a female brain into him.........shepard is sore

Zaeed is blinded in his good eye...mistakes you for Jack, and LIKES it.

Oh come now that was low.

 No one gets me

I thought it was funny at least!

I don't see any serious story really working anyway.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If they were new characters, that would be fine with me. But I'm against changing pre-existing ones.

I think you might have had better luck with this thread if you'd titled it/made the main question, "Does making pre-existing LIs bisexual change them?" because in the end THAT is the main question and the topic that can be debated. I know you are against changing pre-existing characters, but the problem is that argument so far doesn't hold weight with those of us on the other side, because our response is, "But we're not changing anything, just learning more about them!" If we all took a step back and debated THAT issue - does a revelation about sexuality (or just attraction to Shepard and being otherwise straight) change a character - that is a much meatier and more valid argument, whereas now we're all arguing at cross purposes with entirely different assumptions and perspectives. We're not even arguing the same thing, really.

Looking back, I should have chosen a softer toned title.

[mopotter]

centauri2002 wrote...

coolair74 wrote...

Well this isnt Dragon Age.  Your playing a narrative. Male Shep is straiGHt. He was written this way and the Devs have said they arnt going to change that. At least so far.

Its a great game with a great plot and some deverse characters, changing it now would just muttle things up.

I did also say that I'd like to see a more diverse experience in a future game series. I like Mass Effect as it is, and I absolutely love its narrative style. Although, I really don't see how his sexuality would change him as a character but that's not the point of this. I'd like to see BioWare build on the previous two games, story and character-wise, instead of introducing a plethora of new features. :3

Edited: To take out the quote spam.

I agree, Shepards sexuality wouldn't change him as a character if they gave us a m/m option.  And I would also like to see them build on the previous two games for those of us who have been playing since ME1, and not just throw in a bunch of sparkly new things to attract anyone who hasn't played the game.  

Having it be stand alone game is ok, but it should be a stand alone game that is better if you played the other two.  And back on topic, by including the past two games, the LI from those games should not be changed in ME3, which you mentioned.    

I expect them to bring in new characters, it's a thing they do, and I'd be quite happy if those characters are SS romancable.    

[JaylaClark]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I disagree. I think that every single damn LI should be bisexual, with a few exclusively homosexual LIs included too.



The Vad0rz agrees with me.

If they were new characters, that would be fine with me. But I'm against changing pre-existing ones.

**MILD 'It Was His Sled'-level Spoilers about DA2**
I don't know if I'm quoting the pic rather than snipping it for ironic effect, but I presume this means that the news about DA2 -- which I didn't squee about until I met the relevant characters, including someone I could have sworn I dated except for the pointy ears, truth be told -- doesn't bother you at all?  I find it unrealistic but I don't find it disturbing that Gaider decided to make every LI an option for everyone, not in the least. 

Having said that, I really do believe that Tali and Garrus should have been bisexual options for exactly the same reason.  (I've had my issues with the Talifan and the Calibrators but I like the characters regardless, a lot, and would have definitely had a single femShep fall for Tali.  As a matter of fact, after I download a single femShep, being way too weak to resist Liara plus my ongoing troubles getting the blasted game to not crash on my new PC, I probably WILL have her romance Garrus, just not at all like some of the depictions ... depict.)

[UsagiVindaloo]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If they were new characters, that would be fine with me. But I'm against changing pre-existing ones.

I think you might have had better luck with this thread if you'd titled it/made the main question, "Does making pre-existing LIs bisexual change them?" because in the end THAT is the main question and the topic that can be debated. I know you are against changing pre-existing characters, but the problem is that argument so far doesn't hold weight with those of us on the other side, because our response is, "But we're not changing anything, just learning more about them!" If we all took a step back and debated THAT issue - does a revelation about sexuality (or just attraction to Shepard and being otherwise straight) change a character - that is a much meatier and more valid argument, whereas now we're all arguing at cross purposes with entirely different assumptions and perspectives. We're not even arguing the same thing, really.

Looking back, I should have chosen a softer toned title.

That certainly would have helped. For one, clarifying that you specifically meant changing existing LIs may have softened some of the impact (though there are still those, myself included, that would disagree). Also, it would have helped IMMENSELY if you'd phrased it as a question ("Should existing LI's be bisexual?") and just mentioned your own feelings in the first post ("I personally don't think so, because X and Y." with a lot less of the RUINED FOREVER language). Then it could just be a discussion between different viewpoints rather than telling a large section of the ME fanbase that "No, this thing that you want should NOT happen ever!"

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 22 mars 2011 - 11:15 .